Pilots detained in Brazil

[Traderd]

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/topstories_story_277082752.html

 

[timeoff]

WOW. It looks like they are going to face 155 counts of involuntary manslaughter if the government finds them "guilty". Does anyone know if US pilots have ever been convicted of something like this in the past when flying in a foriegn country?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061004/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_crash

 

[Squanto]

Its the Civil Side.......$

Even if they win the criminal counts, the civil lawsuits from all of the families will be ungodly. Sad situation for all involved.

 

[handlesaregay]

I had a feeling this was coming. Got to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about flying internationally. IMO it's part of a broader trend of criminalizing accidents. Be careful not to run over a pedestrian while talking on your cell phone you just might wind up in prison.

 

[AngelKing]

I think what has to be determined is, if this was truly a case of radio miscommunication or if they were purposely not flying their clearance.


If they were knowingly not flying their clearance, it can hardly be called an "accident"

AK

 

[handlesaregay]

If they were knowingly not flying their clearance, it can hardly be called an "accident"

Then what do you call it?

 

[AngelKing]

Well, how about .... willfull misconduct, manslaughter, etc..? An accident is when something happens that is beyond normal control. If they were intentionally flying a different altitude that what they were cleared, what would you call it?


AK

 

[skyaddict]

Just off the top of my head (in case my memory is hazy), I recall that there was a Swissair aborted takeoff in Athens (the 70s I think), off a runway without any over-run and into a ravine, that resulted in many fatalities and long jail sentences for the flight crew until they were extradited. I think IFALPA fought long and hard on that. Plus, back in the late 90s, I believe, a KAL Airbus crashed during a go-around at Seoul where the Korean CA and Canadian FO fought over the controls. Don't recall the outcome, but the Koreans threw criminal charges at the crew. Air Traffic Controllers in some European countries have also been charged with manslaughter and imprisoned- e.g. the controller who steered a BEA Trident and another airliner into each other over Yugoslavia. (As an aside, the the Danish Eurocontrol controller who inadvertantly steered the freighter and Soviet charter full of school kids, into the midair on the Swiss/German border a few years back, was assassinated in front of his wife and kids at home by a vigilante Russian.)

There is a good Ernie Gann book, Band of Brothers, about old flying buddies coming together to fight for the American Captain of a Taiwanese 727, falsely charged and imprisoned after an ILS crash that was actually due to a faulty glideslope, which the government wanted to cover up. Loosely based on a true accident.

It does all give one the creeps when it comes to international flying.

 

[handlesaregay]

Well, how about .... willfull misconduct, manslaughter, etc..? An accident is when something happens that is beyond normal control. If they were intentionally flying a different altitude that what they were cleared, what would you call it?

I understand what you're getting at. But think about what you're advocating is that really the kind of world you want to live in? If your daughter goes out one night and while "knowingly" exceeding the speed limit flips her SUV and kills a bunch of people are you ready to send her to the big house for manslaughter? Where do you draw the line? Is every accident a potential crime?

 

[AngelKing]

I understand what you're getting at. But think about what you're advocating is that really the kind of world you want to live in? If your daughter goes out one night and while "knowingly" exceeding the speed limit flips her SUV and kills a bunch of people are you ready to send her to the big house for manslaughter? Where do you draw the line? Is every accident a potential crime?

No, I would not want her sent to the big house since she is my daughter. But if my daughter was speeding and crashed into your daughter and killed her, would you want my daughter punished? My guess is....probably.

My point is, if the flight crew was knowingly.....repeat knowingly, not flying an assigned altitude, for whatever reason, and caused a crash , it can hardly be called an accident.

AK

 

[handlesaregay]

No, I would not want her sent to the big house since she is my daughter. But if my daughter was speeding and crashed into your daughter and killed her, would you want my daughter punished? My guess is....probably.

But we're not talking about justice then we're talking about revenge.

 

[AngelKing]

So you are saying, if they were knowingly flying an altitude not assigned to them and caused this crash, then nothing should happen to them?


AK

 

[handlesaregay]

So you are saying, if they were knowingly flying an altitude not assigned to them and caused this crash, then nothing should happen to them?

I'm not saying nothing should happen. But how comfortable are you letting a 3rd world justice system make that decision?

 

[Guitar rocker]

Mmmm, 3rd world justice system.......that could hurt, kinda like in midnight express.

 

[AngelKing]

I'm not saying nothing should happen. But how comfortable are you letting a 3rd world justice system make that decision?

Then I might suggest being more careful in a "3rd world".


AK

 

[handlesaregay]

Then I might suggest being more careful in a "3rd world".

Note to self: If ever involved in mishap overseas leave country ASAP.

 

[AngelKing]

You got that right.

AK:beer:

 

[geojet707]

I'm not saying nothing should happen. But how comfortable are you letting a 3rd world justice system make that decision?

I don't know many third world countries that have developed one of the world's best selling regional aircraft. I would venture to say that their justice system is just as developed as their industrial system. Just my .02....

 

[Princedietrich]

Well, accident or intentional, I think anything and everything is going to be nothing more than speculation until the CVR and ATC recordings along with the radar dump are scrutinized. I would imagine that some of this is already in progress.

 

[NuGuy]

Mmmm, 3rd world justice system.......that could hurt, kinda like in midnight express.

Very true. In many spots, SOP is to throw everyone in jail regardless of fault. Those with political connections and/or large $$$ will eventually be found "innocent", while those without either are in for a long stay in the South American pokey.

While I agree that Brasil has some rather nice manufacturing capability, isn't this also the country where the authorities have lost all control of the jails, and it's pretty much the convicts running things and coodinating riots across the country on cell phones?

Nu