Airline pilots lobby to fly past age 60

[Andy]

He flew 37 years for United. Wow life really did screw him, I feel so bad. I mean, that must mean that he was hired when he was 23? God bless his unfairly tortured soul.

Correction- he was hired at 22.

 

[Andy]

Mel Martinez
United States Senator

Climb2slow, that's because Mel is GOP. GOP is solidly behind changing it. Your time is better spent concentrating on Dems. I sent you a PM.

 

[N1kawotg]

No matter whose side you are on. Here's a question. If the law was not around today, could ALPA or anyone else make it law? My guess no way!
Remember, no hearings etc was used to make it law the first time.
Lobbyist have kept it around. IMO

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

This measure would in effect tie the commercial pilot retirement age to the social security retirement age, prohibiting the Federal Aviation Administration from requiring commercial pilots to retire before they are eligible for Social Security benefits.

S. 65 would protect worker's rights both by rescinding an outdated, discriminatory regulation, and allowing thousands of pilots to continue to pay into their pensions and into Social Security. This particular economic advantage cannot be overlooked, especially considering the current fragile state of a number of airline pension programs.

Sincerely,

Mel Martinez
United States Senator

Look closer at this guys. The real reason age 65 is coming is money. Money for Social Security. Less money spent by the PBGC. They will package this as workers' rights or some other mumbo jumbo to make it look they are doing us a huge favor, but they just want the money.

That's why pay raises for Congress ALWAYS get passed by Congress.

 

[Andy]

No matter whose side you are on. Here's a question. If the law was not around today, could ALPA or anyone else make it law? My guess no way!
Remember, no hearings etc was used to make it law the first time.
Lobbyist have kept it around. IMO

That's not true. There were hearings. Do some research on why the FAA was created. It was due to the Federal Aviation Act of 1958. The reason why the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 was passed was due to the large number of airline accidents. Here's a page that talks about the history a bit:
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Government_Role/FAA_History/POL8.htm

And in spite of stories to the contrary, Quesada formed a committee to make recommendations on how to improve safety - one of the results of that committee was the age 60 rule. After it was recommended, there was a period of time for public comments to be made. IIRC, there were only about 100 comments made about the rule change.
These are some of the pesky details that the pro change 'shooter in the grassy knoll' crowd ignore.

 

[FoxHunter]

That's not true. There were hearings. Do some research on why the FAA was created. It was due to the Federal Aviation Act of 1958. The reason why the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 was passed was due to the large number of airline accidents. Here's a page that talks about the history a bit:
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Government_Role/FAA_History/POL8.htm

And in spite of stories to the contrary, Quesada formed a committee to make recommendations on how to improve safety - one of the results of that committee was the age 60 rule. After it was recommended, there was a period of time for public comments to be made. IIRC, there were only about 100 comments made about the rule change.
These are some of the pesky details that the pro change 'shooter in the grassy knoll' crowd ignore.

Andy, you must have read the CR Smith Quesada letters.

http://www.age60rule.com/docs/smith_quesada.pdf

 

[Andy]

Andy, you must have read the CR Smith Quesada letters.

[URL="http://www.age60rule.com/docs/smith_quesada.pdf"]http://www.age60rule.com/docs/smith_quesada.pdf[/URL]

I'm not seeing the 'smoking gun' there. More of people making a mountain out of a molehill.
Do you think that Ike was in on the 'conspiracy' by appointing Quesada?

 

[FoxHunter]

I'm not seeing the 'smoking gun' there. More of people making a mountain out of a molehill.
Do you think that Ike was in on the 'conspiracy' by appointing Quesada?

No, but Quesada was appointed the the American BOD after he left the FAA. American, Western, and TWA tried to impose an age 60 retirement on thir pilots. ALPA grieved it and won in Arbitration. Smith had a problem JETS. His senior pilots were the same guys that started in the Ford Tri-motors and the Curtis Condors in the 20s. They were having training problems, which was expensive. Quesada fixed the problem. Quesada came from an era that said if you were age 25 you were too old to fly fighters. Wonder how that thinking would serve the military today? It was also an era that you may have found one pilot out of one hundred that exercised, fifteen out one hundred that did not smoke. WOW! How times have changed. Working to keep age 60 really has all the ethics of scabbing.

 

[ERJFO]

Mel Martinez
United States Senator

Can you send me a copy of the letter you sent her?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Working to keep age 60 really has all the ethics of scabbing.

Whoa... easy ex non member... What do you mean!!!

 

[vetrider]

A short session between the elections and the convening of the next regular session. Some of the members will have been defeated at the polls, but still have a few days remaining in office.

Thanks Tom for the info, and also for being a gentleman about it. I'm a little embarassed, I wouldn't have blamed you if you would have said "look dipstick, do a little research yourself, it would only take 2 seconds using google..."

 

[FoxHunter]

Whoa... easy ex non member... What do you mean!!!

Taking action to insure that another individual loses his job so you can replace him. uke:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Taking action to insure that another individual loses his job so you can replace him. uke:

But is that really scabbing.... I mean it is all fair within defined politics...

Besides, if you use the scab term too loosely... then when someone really crosses the line its kinda deluted... save the scab word for the real thing... Mr. ex non member...

 

[Hootie9750]

Here will be the outcomes


-Govt wont have to pay five extra years of social security
-Govt gets five more years of extra taxes from the 150k+ tax bracket
-Old farts get more toys, and johhny gets to go rack up a bill at Riddle
-Old farts know that social security will still be around till they die

on the other hand

-airlines have increased labor costs pushing them further into the red
-i have to spend five more years flying a rj around
-i have to pay my whole life to support old farts and when my time
comes I have no social security even though I am forced to pay for it

The "I got mine, so FVK you" crowd wins again!!!

Hoo-ray!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here will be the outcomes


-Govt wont have to pay five extra years of social security
-Govt gets five more years of extra taxes from the 150k+ tax bracket
-Old farts get more toys, and johhny gets to go rack up a bill at Riddle
-Old farts know that social security will still be around till they die

on the other hand

-airlines have increased labor costs pushing them further into the red
-i have to spend five more years flying a rj around
-i have to pay my whole life to support old farts and when my time
comes I have no social security even though I am forced to pay for it

The "I got mine, so FVK you" crowd wins again!!!

Hoo-ray!!!

Maybe you'll also get five more years of B797 pay... or A380 or whatever the jet flavor of the month is....

 

[Andy]

Maybe you'll also get five more years of B797 pay... or A380 or whatever the jet flavor of the month is....

No Rez. How stupid do you think he is? If the seat on the B797 or A380 takes an additional 5 years to become vacant, he will merely be flying the same number of years on that equipment ... 5 years older. He will get the additional 5 years flying time in whatever equipment he's in when the music stops and retirement age changes.

Hootie9750, don't kid yourself about this stopping at age 65. Once the pro-change crowd has their foot in the door, it will eventually slide out to 'full retirement age'; for anyone born after 1959, that's 67. And don't be surprised when full retirement age changes again over the next 10 years.

 

[Caveman]

Name me one other industry where the youngsters think they have a god given right to jobs currently held by someone older than them. You can have my seat when I'm good and ready to leave it and not a moment sooner. I don't want to change the mandatory retirement age, I want to abolish it.

Why don't we change it from a retirement age to retirement at at certain longevity, say 20 years on property. When you get 20 years worth of seniority you have to retire and give the junior guys a chance. How about that? 20 years should be enough time to save for your retirement. Sounds just as stupid as a mandatory retirement age if you ask me.

If you want to retire at 60, be my guest. No one's stopping you. There isn't one working agreement that says anybody has to work past age 60. Not one. So why should you care what I choose to do? It's none of your business whether I work or not. You have no right to my job, my seat or my domicile.

 

[FoxHunter]

But is that really scabbing.... I mean it is all fair within defined politics...

Besides, if you use the scab term too loosely... then when someone really crosses the line its kinda deluted... save the scab word for the real thing... Mr. ex non member...

Does addressing me as an "ex non member" really do something for you? Hey that scab word is thrown around by quite a few ALPA Kool-Aid types that would probably would be among the first to cross if things went bad. No, ALPA would like the age 65 problem to go away. The problem is that guys and gals keep getting older and then they have a change of heart. What do you think the results would be if ALPA had held a poll in 1970 regarding women and minorities in the cockpit? Should women and minorities not been hired if the vote was 9 to 1 against, 8 to 2 against, 7 to 3 against or would you argue that ALPA should have opposed women and minorities if 50%+1 were against? No Rez, some things are not goverened by polls. Opposition to the age 60 change comes only from those whose self interest is for it not to change, until they are old enough to want it to change.

No Rez, I quit ALPA over that fraud of an "Age 60 Education Campaign". I rejoined because I believed the issue would be resolved. It was no mistake to quit, just waiting to see if it was a mistake to rejoin.:beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What do you think the results would be if ALPA had held a poll in 1970 regarding women and minorities in the cockpit?

I think about 30% of the membership would particapte indicating that they really don't care...just like they did recently on the Age60 issue.

No Rez, I quit ALPA over that fraud of an "Age 60 Education Campaign". I rejoined because I believed the issue would be resolved. It was no mistake to quit, just waiting to see if it was a mistake to rejoin.:beer:

Wow... A one man boycott... How about if all of us boycott the organization over our issue de jour.

Take that over to US Politics... Americans renoucing thier citizenship over the latest scandal, invasion, crisis, whatever...

Fact is the gov't, local state and fed provide many essential services that citizens can't do well without. Many services we simply aren't even aware of or that we take for granted. So why quit over one issue when so many more issues and services are used?

When the Age60 issue poll/survey was made available did you participate? Could you have?

Why not man up and stick with the organization insteading of being a short term quitter... You have no voice when you pack up your marbles and go home.

Instead, continue to work the issue as member...

Glad you're back.... :beer:

 

[koko nw]

Name me one other industry where the youngsters think they have a god given right to jobs currently held by someone older than them. You can have my seat when I'm good and ready to leave it and not a moment sooner. I don't want to change the mandatory retirement age, I want to abolish it.

Why don't we change it from a retirement age to retirement at at certain longevity, say 20 years on property. When you get 20 years worth of seniority you have to retire and give the junior guys a chance. How about that? 20 years should be enough time to save for your retirement. Sounds just as stupid as a mandatory retirement age if you ask me.

If you want to retire at 60, be my guest. No one's stopping you. There isn't one working agreement that says anybody has to work past age 60. Not one. So why should you care what I choose to do? It's none of your business whether I work or not. You have no right to my job, my seat or my domicile.

These guy's come to mind off hand.

State and local police
firefighters
federal firefighters
federal law enforcement and corrections officers
air traffic controllers
Military
commercial airline pilots

So yea, get out of MY left seat when your time comes. Which when YOU signed up was 60.

And save me the I've been against it even before I got old and crotchety argument.

Koko