Mesaba Re-Alignment 06-04

[Crizz]

Wasnt this thing supposed to award last night at 5?

 

[xjhawk]

i say something fishy is going on. IF we are to be only a 49 saab fleet , then why am i still around? why do we have an entire former jet base on reserve

 

[Detroitpilot22]

are all the avro memphis guys still there just sitting around doing nothing? That is wierd

 

[Detroitpilot22]

are all the avro memphis guys still there just sitting around doing nothing? That is wierd

 

[gnx99]

Wasnt this thing supposed to award last night at 5?

Yep, I keep checking mymesaba, but nothing.

I don't know why I have a job either. Last summer we had 9.2 pilots per plane (920 pilots /100 planes), now we have 12.2 pilots per plane (744/61). I'm getting my ass kicked on Saab FO reserve though.....

 

[xjhawk]

yeah, the funny thing is that i hear they are so short on Saab FO's i mean jeeze, something must be going on, they really could not be that dumb, but with my luck, they are the biggest idiots in the avaition industry.....and we are going to have 49 saabs.....while airlines with a higher cost structure are taking all the ASA's away from us.

 

[IHateMgmt]

They're so short on SAAB FO cause they furloughed them all... and now they've got a bunch of RJ guys sitting around with no jet to fly. Brilliant. I stand by my name.

-IHM

 

[bri5150]

I just talked with planning. The reason the award isn't out yet is because they didn't get the multi-class bid they were hoping for, which created a lot more work. He said it will be out today, hopefully before 5:00pm

 

[N590MA]

Why should we give them another multi-class bid? They refused to recognize in court, the cost savings we gave them with the first one. Hopefully this re-alignment is a monster pain in the a$$ for planning, because they couldn't properly staff this airline if they had to. As always, Remember your power setting charts need to have 19.4% deducted from them when you set your cruise power.

And with that, XJ can kiss my spanky!

 

[gnx99]

It's OUT!!! There's a LOT of movement. They also came out with a furlough list including 42 pilots. August 22 furlough date, with voluntaries coming in July.

 

[gnx99]

Also, the move dates are September 1st..... I say it's so far in advance because they are waiting for 76 seaters to become official. This gives them time to wait it out.

 

[othello]

153 pilots moving, bases and or Equipment. + furlough list including 42 pilots.

My understanding is that the AVRO sim has been shutdown and is getting ready to move to Europe. So how are the pilots that have displaced into the avro going to get trained?

And with all this movement taking place on June 26-27 (all classes starting)who the hell is going to fly the Planes in July?

 

[XJohXJ]

And with all this movement taking place on June 26-27 (all classes starting)who the hell is going to fly the Planes in July?

A lot of the July Saab DTW FO lines are up in the 90's, so it won't be any of us!

 

[xjhawk]

yeah something smells like management at XJ

153 pilots moving, bases and or Equipment. + furlough list including 42 pilots.

My understanding is that the AVRO sim has been shutdown and is getting ready to move to Europe. So how are the pilots that have displaced into the avro going to get trained?

And with all this movement taking place on June 26-27 (all classes starting)who the hell is going to fly the Planes in July?

I tend to agree, notice the dates to start the training are right when the next court date starts. I cannot imagine them training so many people at the same time and yeah, who will be flying all the planes? Where will the avro training occur.

I have said it before, something does not add up here. Yes i will admit, this scares the crap out of me, but when i see some trends that do not add up at mesaba and NWA, i think this is all a scare tactic one way or another, even if it means some temp furloughs might be in the future, and it might be something like 76 seaters or whatever. But they would be coming slow, if ever. I have no idea whats up, except some of my friends are furloughed and are on the furlough list now. I still say, we need to stay strong and let the place burn since the management is starting the fires......why should we take cuts to pay for the fire department.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Even if NWA orders 76 seat jets this year it will be months before any go online, and I'm talking like 8-12 months minimum. I would think the company is keeping you guys around to earn you guys a little more money before you have to face furlough. You guys were screwed by NWA with or without the help of XJ or MAIR. Even if you got MAIR's money back it still wouldn;t help any of the pilot group.

 

[A19]

When there is nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire

 

[gnx99]

Even if NWA orders 76 seat jets this year it will be months before any go online, and I'm talking like 8-12 months minimum. I would think the company is keeping you guys around to earn you guys a little more money before you have to face furlough. You guys were screwed by NWA with or without the help of XJ or MAIR. Even if you got MAIR's money back it still wouldn;t help any of the pilot group.

Couldn't they do it faster than that? We already have a certified CRJ training program up and running. And I thought all the CRJs have the same type rating. Unless they won't be CRJs.....

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Couldn't they do it faster than that? We already have a certified CRJ training program up and running. And I thought all the CRJs have the same type rating. Unless they won't be CRJs.....

Nope, first they have to make a decision on what airplanes to buy. That was going to be this month, however with the flight attendants it has been pushed back. Next, they have to find the financing and then go through the legal process to get that. That will most likely happen after all of NWA planes lease rates are finalized(sometime in october-november) Then they have to start building them, which will take 2-3 months for the first airplane. Then mesaba has to transfer the senior guys to the new jet and so forth. So if you are furloughed right now, I would say 2009 is a likely date you will see your employment again. However, upgrade time will be very short once you get back. If you are just starting your private flight training right now, by the time your ready to get hired, mesaba will be the fastest upgrade.

From a mangement aspect that long contract duration they are handing you guys will cover a whole generation of pilots through that company, of whom will not be looking to get back what they previously had. So anybody asking why so long, there's your answer.

 

[N590MA]

You guys think that it will only be 70 seaters? I would not put it past them to take some of 9E's 50s and send them to Xj. I would bet they would start with the 15 bthat 9e parked and were recently told that they were possibly coming back.

 

[fieldinsight]

Those 15 birds are gone. The leases were rejected, Bombardier is trying to re-lease them via some guarantee program thru the Canadian gov't. Just read someplace that they've been talking to interested parties about those planes and some of the former flyI planes. US carriers have no interest in 50 seaters. I still wouldn't be surprised to see XJT's 69 planes painted in redtails. That would make it easy to reject the leases on another 69 CRJ440's.

 

[CubanSmoker]

So if you are furloughed right now, I would say 2009 is a likely date you will see your employment again. However, upgrade time will be very short once you get back.

How the hell would any pilot know this? Management doesn't know any of this yet! Is XJ going away? Possibly. Could XJ grow like crazy in 6 months from other scenarios? Possibly. Could we shut it down with a strike? Sure. But none of us are going to know what happens until it happens. We're pilots... We will be the last to know anything and it's always been that way.

YPF, I like some of your ideas & you throw some interesting spins on what is happening, but I've spoken with pilots that actually listen to the crap on this board and use other people's guesses to decide where to go on this rocky road. Throwing out dates they are going to go back to work after they are furloughed is complete BS. Everyone needs to relax a lot, read a (non-aviation) book, get a girlfriend or pay attention to the one you have, hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Get the resume ready and re-read Checklist for Success but decide to stay or leave Mesaba when you know where this company is really going. I mean when the announcements not threats are all over and we actually see the changes that are going to occur - good or bad. That won't be for a while .

Furloughed pilots that need to get another airline gig right away or could never afford to stay - by all means do what you have to do and I sincerely say "good luck". But if you are at still on the seniority list, living in domicile with your family and (like me) could replace your income from here with ANY job for half a year, just see what shakes out. No one knows what really is coming for XJ, but is it worth a major relocation or commuting for a lateral career move after putting years in here?

If a lateral move is what you're after and Mesaba joins the ranks of crappy regionals, there are lots of other crappy regionals hiring and they will be for years. So if you delayed your lateral move and lost some seniority at Mesa but knew you made the right/educated decision for you, wouldn't it be worth it? Many of my senior friends are jumping ship to other airlines knowing they have to commute to "avoid pay cuts". They are going to regionals that only pay a few dollars more an hour if at all. But they don't realize that starting at the bottom of another list to make $150 more a month while losing lots of days at home and paying for crashpads could completely ruin their family and/or financial life. A regional job anywhere isn't worth that.

I'm not saying take a pay cut or listen to what our worthless SLT says at all, but we all need to calm down and think before we act. When the smoke and mirrors are gone IF we really go down to 49 Saabs and management really needs us to live below poverty levels to stay in business, then we really shouldn't be in business at all and we owe it to the shareholders to liquidate. It happens in business all the time: the revenue could no longer support the cost of business, the business goes away. But do you really believe we would even be here today if NWA or our our SLT knew we would only be a 49 Saab operator? Nope. We'd be sold, absorbed, or just liquidate. There is no substantial money in having a stand alone airline to drive less than 50 old turboprops.

Flame me if you want, but I think something less than doom and gloom is on the horizon for us. I doubt it'll be anything great, but don't uproot your family and your life before you have to over what you think might or might not happen. We've lost aircraft, flying, and sadly people have been furloughed. But that's happened in the past with every airline. That's just the reality of it. I understand if you need to leave to take care of yourself and your family, by all means do so. But no one has changed our pay rates yet, none of our work rules are gone yet, and nothing would piss off management more then to see their tactics are not working.

Just hang on a while longer if you can, support our union and let them do their job... If I'm wrong, I'll swing your gear and buy you a beer now that you're more senior than me at the next crappy job we get.

Cheers

 

[XJohXJ]

Well put. Cheers!

 

[arthompson]

The CRJ 440s are being being converted to 200LR's at a rate of 3 per week

 

[DoinTime]

Those 15 birds are gone. The leases were rejected, Bombardier is trying to re-lease them via some guarantee program thru the Canadian gov't. Just read someplace that they've been talking to interested parties about those planes and some of the former flyI planes. US carriers have no interest in 50 seaters. I still wouldn't be surprised to see XJT's 69 planes painted in redtails. That would make it easy to reject the leases on another 69 CRJ440's.

Thats crap to think that those 15 CRJs are gone to the leasing company. What leasing company would even take back airplanes that didn't have the branding taken off of them? Not only would a leasing company require this branding to be removed but the Northwest pilot scope clause also requires it to be removed. Even Mesaba removed all Northwest brand indications from the Saabs before they returned them to Pinnacle.

All of those CRJ's are sitting out in the desert with "operated by Pinnacle Airlines" written on the side and a big NW logo stamped on the side and the tail. Those airplanes are coming back to service with NW in one form or another.

 

[xjhawk]

really?

Nope, first they have to make a decision on what airplanes to buy. That was going to be this month, however with the flight attendants it has been pushed back. Next, they have to find the financing and then go through the legal process to get that. That will most likely happen after all of NWA planes lease rates are finalized(sometime in october-november) Then they have to start building them, which will take 2-3 months for the first airplane. Then mesaba has to transfer the senior guys to the new jet and so forth. So if you are furloughed right now, I would say 2009 is a likely date you will see your employment again. However, upgrade time will be very short once you get back. If you are just starting your private flight training right now, by the time your ready to get hired, mesaba will be the fastest upgrade.

From a mangement aspect that long contract duration they are handing you guys will cover a whole generation of pilots through that company, of whom will not be looking to get back what they previously had. So anybody asking why so long, there's your answer.

So you are telling that in NWA 's restructuring plan, they had not figured out what plane and how much they would spend...i totally do not think that a company restructuring plan, approved by the judge, finacers......everyone would approve a section that said.....regional link plan....to be figured out in june of 06........they have a plan, and a plane in their plan, it is plain as that....

 

[IHateMgmt]

I mostly agree with what you said, CubanSmoker. Lateral moves are not worth it at this point. However, if pay cuts are imposed I do think that would be a time to move. That's just my opinion though and a very tough decision to make.

YPF, I don't mind hearing your predictions and opinions. The problem I have with you is how you say them. When you speculate, you talk like you have seen the future. I do not believe you know the future with 100% certainty and thus everything you say is purely a guess, correct? Like I said, it's not what you say but how you say it. Tone it down a notch or two and I think you'll find you'll make more friends.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

No, I haven't seen into the future, however what I do know is that you guys think there is a plan and there isn't. The company doesn't think in terms of long term planning. If they did they wouldn't be in this position right now. I'm sure NWA management has some ideas, however, it was more like a statement like this, "We need this amount of savings, come back when you got it and then we'll figure things out."

Maybe NWA has a secret stash of jets and all you guys will be back to work within a few months. But, I think you'll find reality is much closer to what I post. I think it would be irresponsible to post favorable statements that are untrue. Right now we are in the dark days of aviation and there is nothing good to report. It would appear to me that NWA has done and gone with the carrot approach in favor of the, "do this or you're Fuc|<ed", approach.

If there is anything positive I can say, is that we are going to a global economy. Everybody's salary worldwide is either going up, or going down to meet in the middle. The airline industry seems to always be hit first. That's why we are suffering the most. I think that if the airlines can form global conglomerates, I think you find in about ten years we will be where it's at.

 

[kmox29]

I think that if the airlines can form global conglomerates, I think you find in about ten years we will be where it's at.

Just think...10 more years and everything might be ok. I hope upper management can weather the storm as well.

 

[xjhawk]

well ypf, i think you have some insight, but not the inside info a lot think you have, and the way you tell your ideas makes some think you do....well, i am not giving up my seniority on a bunch of rumors and guesses. I would rather stick it out, take a break from flying if i have to, maybe even go fly for some other company....but the commute would suck very much.....as much for my dog as much as my girlfriend.....sort of a joke i guess

Any ideas people?

 

[W&BWiz]

Well I for one am relieved to finally see something happen, even if I did get "awarded" the furlough. I am going to collect some unemployment, and take my "travel benefits" to Europe. If after that XJ mgmt still has their head up their a$$, I am going back to school.