Rez O. Lewshun
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Your ALPA Dues At Work Part 1 / 3
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BluDevAv8r
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pipejockey said:
The elected reps of each airline meet collectively to vote on the position of the President of ALPA.
Out of curiosity, and I'm not trying to pick a fight here, are you calling DW a "piece of trash" based on some pilots' opinions posted on here? Or are you calling him that based on personal interaction or experience with him? Just curious where you are coming from here.
-Neal
Rez O. Lewshun
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BluDevAv8r said:
Neal-
This reminds me of flipping channels and stopping at a book review program on C-SPAN. The author was taking questions and this clown stood up and said, I haven't read your book, but...............
And proceeded to critque.
The author tore the guy up, becuase A) he didn't read the book and B) he didn't understand what he was talking about.
Did I mention the guy didn't read the authors book?
Rez O. Lewshun
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In U.S. airline fights, pilots often the last workers standing
Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)
Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.
The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.
On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.
To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.
ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.
Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.
"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.
"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."
ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.
The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.
Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.
But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.
The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.
"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.
And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.
While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.
"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.
Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.
"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.
"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."
Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)
Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.
The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.
On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.
To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.
ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.
Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.
"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.
"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."
ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.
The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.
Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.
But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.
The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.
"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.
And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.
While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.
"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.
Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.
"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.
"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."
pipejockey
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Because not a single ALPA carrier has seen a better contract than their prior one since Delta in June of 2001! I mean come on, I was all for the major airline pilots to perhaps take a pay freeze after the effects of 9-11 took hold for maybe a couple years, but here we are 4.5 years after the fact and the cuts are still coming in waves. NWA's illustrious contract doesn't even keep up with inflation for it's term, so in essence they will be taking cuts until 2011 or whenever they get a new contract, most likely 2013 or so.BluDevAv8r said:
Maybe the only thing that will show management that enough is enough, is for a pilot group to actually go out on strike even if it means losing their job via liquidation. The shareholders at the remaining airlines will not risk a pilot strike after seeing that happen to a competitor. It was the early 90s when Pan Am and Eastern both went by the wayside, and soon after profits returned to the major carriers....record profits i might add in the late 90s. United had something like 1 Billion in profit alone in 1999 or 2000 I believe, can you imagine.
It would certainly be devastating to the employees of the airline that fails but life goes on. And I must ask this...How much lower can wages go before no one seeks this profession anymore? Jobs that used to be created at the Majors are being turned over to the dastardly regionals with these 50+ seat jets at pay rates that pale in comparison to what used to be the mainline. For a Captain not to be able to break 100K a year for flying even the smallest RJ is utterly atrocious!!
I don't mean to digress, but do you all know there are 1 million lawyers in the USA now. I bet less than 10% earn less than 100K and many earn in excess of 500K I'm sure. There are less than 1/10th as many airline pilots. And none earn even 300K anymore with most earning less than 100K, what with all the growth at the regionals where you just earn an average American wage as a captain mind you, the wage FO's make are not even worth mentioning as it is inconsequential. I am sure the airlines can find a way to pay their pilots and provide them with the QOL and workrules they had 5 to 10 years ago if their hand was forced.
ex j-41
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Paralegal
How on earth is a paralegal worth $100k?
I spend 200 days a year in a hotel in some god forsaken place and
spend many 14 hr days in an airport not to mention the Ozone dangers
i am experiencing, all for less than 25K. WTF?
When they say they "Negotiated" the contracts? What Negotaitions took
place? How do you negotiate less than minimum wage?
How can DW relate to the pilots today that are making poverty wages when
he is making $500k? Walk a mile in my shoes pal.....
How on earth is a paralegal worth $100k?
I spend 200 days a year in a hotel in some god forsaken place and
spend many 14 hr days in an airport not to mention the Ozone dangers
i am experiencing, all for less than 25K. WTF?
When they say they "Negotiated" the contracts? What Negotaitions took
place? How do you negotiate less than minimum wage?
How can DW relate to the pilots today that are making poverty wages when
he is making $500k? Walk a mile in my shoes pal.....
XJohXJ
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Divide-and-conquer ALWAYS WINS.
It's just like buy-low-sell-high, and finders-keepers, and we-control-the-house-the-senate-the-president-and-the-supremes-so-we-can-do-whatever-we-want-and-funnel-all-the-money-to-our-friends.
It's simple, folks. We need to act like a UNION. Look at what happened in England last year. The workers at Healthrow shut down a large chunk of our planet's travellers over a handfull of caterers, for goodness sake. And guess what, the workers won, plain and simple, because they were UNITED.
And, please, spare they namby-pamby "we can't strike, because it's illegal" crap. It was illegal for the NY subway workers to strike, but they did it anyway, and, wait for it......YES FOLKS, THEY WON! Why? Because they were UNITED. No one even went to jail. They were fined (and they are fighting it...) big time...a few million dollars. So what. They have the money, and they won the battle because they were UNITED.
I don't think it should be any surprise to anyone that the laws are written by the rich and powerful to benefit themselves alone at the expense of those without power (or UNITY). And for that matter, no BK judge gives a rat's arse about what is FAIR or RIGHT. They only care about the legal code, which is written soley to keep the money and power where it is already concentrated. They sure don't care about how crappy a job might be. They just care if there is a job at all, even if it is at povery level wages.
Besides, when UNIONS were formed, everything they did was against the law. They stood together, and that gave them power. The laws bent a little tiny bit in their favor, and they benefited. People were prosperous.
Now we have a nation full of people shouting "I've got mine!" Who cares about any one else? Not too many people on this board...
It's just like buy-low-sell-high, and finders-keepers, and we-control-the-house-the-senate-the-president-and-the-supremes-so-we-can-do-whatever-we-want-and-funnel-all-the-money-to-our-friends.
It's simple, folks. We need to act like a UNION. Look at what happened in England last year. The workers at Healthrow shut down a large chunk of our planet's travellers over a handfull of caterers, for goodness sake. And guess what, the workers won, plain and simple, because they were UNITED.
And, please, spare they namby-pamby "we can't strike, because it's illegal" crap. It was illegal for the NY subway workers to strike, but they did it anyway, and, wait for it......YES FOLKS, THEY WON! Why? Because they were UNITED. No one even went to jail. They were fined (and they are fighting it...) big time...a few million dollars. So what. They have the money, and they won the battle because they were UNITED.
I don't think it should be any surprise to anyone that the laws are written by the rich and powerful to benefit themselves alone at the expense of those without power (or UNITY). And for that matter, no BK judge gives a rat's arse about what is FAIR or RIGHT. They only care about the legal code, which is written soley to keep the money and power where it is already concentrated. They sure don't care about how crappy a job might be. They just care if there is a job at all, even if it is at povery level wages.
Besides, when UNIONS were formed, everything they did was against the law. They stood together, and that gave them power. The laws bent a little tiny bit in their favor, and they benefited. People were prosperous.
Now we have a nation full of people shouting "I've got mine!" Who cares about any one else? Not too many people on this board...
Unions are based on a communist model of "we are all equal and should each suffer the same."
That being said, ALPA operates exactly that way. Everyone is equal except for those that are in power. Look at the leaders in any communist country. Are they leading the same lifestyle as the average family? Not hardly. The same applies to ALPA.
But then ALPA takes a turn towards the capitalism model. Every man for himself. NW pilots couldn't care any less as to what happens to their brethren at Mesaba. They have their boats and pensions to worry about while the other half has to look up pension in the dictionary.
DL pilots have a whole different mindset than that of the ASA pilots. They are both supposed to be represented equally, but those who pay more in dues and are in the "good group" will be represented differently. Again back to Communism.
I don't have an answer, but it always goes back to the Golden Rule. Those with the gold makes the rules. This applies to all models and it especially applies to the various managements and in ALPA.
That being said, ALPA operates exactly that way. Everyone is equal except for those that are in power. Look at the leaders in any communist country. Are they leading the same lifestyle as the average family? Not hardly. The same applies to ALPA.
But then ALPA takes a turn towards the capitalism model. Every man for himself. NW pilots couldn't care any less as to what happens to their brethren at Mesaba. They have their boats and pensions to worry about while the other half has to look up pension in the dictionary.
DL pilots have a whole different mindset than that of the ASA pilots. They are both supposed to be represented equally, but those who pay more in dues and are in the "good group" will be represented differently. Again back to Communism.
I don't have an answer, but it always goes back to the Golden Rule. Those with the gold makes the rules. This applies to all models and it especially applies to the various managements and in ALPA.
pipejockey said:
WOW, where does one start? So Duane Woerth is a "piece of trash" because not one ALPA carrier has seen a better contract since 2001. Hello-oooo....did 9-11 not have a negative effect on the entire airline industry when that happened? How about $60 barrel of oil? Think that doesn't hurt? At what point did your expect to see the industry turn around? In 6 months?...a year?...when?
Maybe YOU might have expected too see a pay freeze but when faced with the economic realities, it was your fellow pilots that voted for these current contracts based on the information that they had at the time. ALPA economic advisors were there to help those pilot groups go over the books to determine if indeed they needed to take cuts or not.....yes, in some cases, they took more cuts than they may have needed to....but again...it was those pilots who voted....How did you vote on your contract?
I also had to chuckle at your comment about the shareholders not wanting to risk a pilot strike. Can you tell me what happens to an ailine stock when that airline in in Chapter 11? The shareholders have worthless paper.
Tell you what....since you seem so quick to want to see a pilot group go out on strike....why don't you walk out .....tomorrow....let us know what happens.
Tejas
XJohXJ
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Tejas:
Again, it comes down to divide-and-conquer. If one pilot walks off the job (or 10, or even 100) nobody will care at all. Someone else who's out of work will rush, (and maybe even pay) to fill the jobs. If all ALPA pilots shut down the system for a few days, you can bet your arse we would start to be heard, and would put the brakes on the corruption and abuse we are all facing (with a very few exceptions. Yes, some jobs are still good - Enjoy!). Would ALPA be fined? Probably. Would anyone go to jail. Probably not. Management is more than willing to lose money to make a point. Why can't pilots unite for a change, to also make a very loud point? Cojones, anyone?
Again, it comes down to divide-and-conquer. If one pilot walks off the job (or 10, or even 100) nobody will care at all. Someone else who's out of work will rush, (and maybe even pay) to fill the jobs. If all ALPA pilots shut down the system for a few days, you can bet your arse we would start to be heard, and would put the brakes on the corruption and abuse we are all facing (with a very few exceptions. Yes, some jobs are still good - Enjoy!). Would ALPA be fined? Probably. Would anyone go to jail. Probably not. Management is more than willing to lose money to make a point. Why can't pilots unite for a change, to also make a very loud point? Cojones, anyone?
flyinboxes
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BluDevAv8r
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pipejockey said:
What does this have to do with you calling DW a "piece of trash?" Last I checked, all of these concessionary contracts were ratified by their general memberships. Secondly, XJT ratified a contract on 12/1/04 that was significantly better than its previous contract. I also believe that AWA's contract was better than its old one. So there are 2 ALPA contracts for you that go against your claim in your first sentence.
pipejockey said:
I know of several ALPA carriers where RJ captains have broken $100k per year. I'm not saying that the pay shouldn't be higher, but it is a fact that there are many $100k ALPA 50 seat RJ captains out there.
pipejockey said:
Again, what does this have to do with calling DW a "piece of trash?" Also, reference this paragraph...don't forget those minor things called "market forces" and "supply and demand."
-Neal
BluDevAv8r
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ex j-41 said:
Supply and demand. You get what you negotiate by the way...not necessarily what you are "worth."
ex j-41 said:
I've seen you say this ad-nauseum on this board over time. If you don't like your company, leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay there. I simply can't understand how it is possible for you to spend 200 days in all of those "God forsakesn places." It is quite possible at my company to spend less than 8 nights a month in a hotel if you really wanted to. If you don't like hotels, don't bid for those 4-day trips. Go find the 2-days and day trips.
ex j-41 said:
The ALPA admin staff negotiated their contracts with ALPA staff managers. That is what is being referred to here. And if you are referring to pilots, don't forget that all of these contracts are ratified by the rank and file.
ex j-41 said:
I'm quite sure that all pilots, at some point in their career, have made crap money and endured less than ideal working conditions. That said, don't forget that DW was furloughed early in his career.
-Neal
pipejockey
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9-11 is old news. It has no bearing on todays environment. Passengers are flying in the same numbers as they were. And I expected the industry to turn around in 2 years from then to answer your question.
I would in a heartbeat but no one would join me!
Ok, Ill give you that. But Express Jet's contract was soooo bad it could only go up. And I wouldn't call the new contract good. Compared to others maybe but you still can't call that a career job unless you join them in your 20s and have little debt. For someone older than 30 it would be nearly impossible to live on the FO pay for 5 years. And don't tell me about their 2 year upgrade, that is a flash in the pan and will disappear soon if it hasn't already, what with the potential loss of 69 aircraft. And I wouldn't be surprised management comes sniffing around for concessions either.
Those captains you speak of have even less of a life at home then the rest of us who already have no home life to begin with. They probably have few attachments and don't mind living on the road over 20 days a month. Impossible to attain on monthly gaurantee though.
So if we look at all those ALPA people's salary earned in the year 2001 and compare it to today we will see significantly less being paid in wages today? I mean come on, with all the cuts their union members have taken the past 4 years they couldn't actually have the audacity to allow themselves to earn more could they?
Please tell me where this is, as I don't know any airline where you don't have to spend at least half of your life in a hotel.
OK. I am to the point of being maddd as hell and not being able to take it anymore. I lashed out at Woerthless since he is the head honcho and feel he hasn't fought hard enough for us. I mean its not as if he is earning an airline pilots wage...he is earning 500K, I expect a little more for that kind of salary.
pipejockey said:
Let's see....you already said that you would walk out "in a heartbeat" but nobody else would join you. That tells me you are pretty much out in left field on this issue....and it doesn't look like you are getting too much support from the FlightInfo.com crowd.
OK....so your own pilot group doesn't want to fight....but you're mad at Duane Woerth. Looks like you've got to get out there and sell your peers on your ideas....and quit blaming Capt. Woerth for your own pilot groups lack of "cojones"...or your poor selling skills.
But, prepare for the news that you could very well be the only one out there in left field.
Tejas
pipejockey
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You see Tejas, this airline I work for is not a career airline. People will leave here at the first possible moment something better comes along. People have left here to go to regionals even. The way most of the pilot group around here feels is why fight for any improvement when they are out of here when something better comes along. The only people who will stay long-term are those who are too old to go anywhere else or are close to retirement. We have tons of old Eastern, Pan Am, Ryan, Emery guys around here. Then their are the younger generation of us who still have time to get some good experience and get the heck out!! Like me!! NWA, Delta etc etc are all career airlines, and should be fought tooth and nail to keep it that way.
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