You LPC's must be proud....

[F9 Driver]

Depressed yields. Yep. Let's suppose F9 you guys have that UAL liquidation party you have been planning.

Sorry. I ment yields. Never could spell, and now isn't any better.

I wish I could say I was PO'd over how my friends at UAL were out on the street, or how the leader in aviation has come to be laid low, but the truth is I'm truly PO'd because the best thing for F9 is a healthy UAL. I never wanted UAL to liquidate, and don't now.

There is plenty of traffic to go around and y'all taking up the space on B keeps others from coming in. The devil we know as opposed to the one we don't.

With all the pay cuts, they still pay employees MORE than FRNT. Your rightous indignation is comical

How much does a three year captain make at UAL today? And if your DB goes to the PBGC I, for one, wouldn't want to be making the comparison.

FYI, FRONTIER TOOK THE LOAN!!! AND UAL HAD THE CLASS TO STAY OUT OF THAT PROCESS!!

Class? You folks thought you had your loan locked at the time and our request for a line of credit ment nothing to you other than a delay in our demise. BTW we only took a 78M loan. How long does 1.6B take to acrue 78M in interest?

Oh, Yeha... we paid our loan off including penalties while posting a profit.

Mugs,

You may be right, but I think our pilot group has a realistic perspective. Most of us would rather make 130K (plus profit based and cost of living raises) for the next 25 years than "jacking up the house" and making 250K for a few years.

I made the comparison between pilots and MDs when I was in college, but the fact is teachers should be paid more, freight dogs loading their own freight and flying old pistons should be paid alot more, and dogs and cats should live in harmony, but it just don't work that way dude. We are worth what we can negotiate, and if that is more than the company can afford it will fold.

 

[Ty Webb]

Truer words have probably never been writtem.

 

[delivery100]

Truer words have probably never been writtem.

Can anyone tell me, has airline pilot salary been the primary reason ANY airline has ever gone out of business? Plenty of airlines that paid substandard wages are now among the many in the airline graveyards.

United pilots did get a good contract in 2000, that the company COULD afford to pay in the late 90's , and into 2000 before the perfect storm hit. Well, the shlt hit the fan, and the pilots were the first ones to agree to concessions to try and save the airline.

Airlines will come and go despite what they pay us as pilots, so I think it is our responsibility to raise the bar for our profession. Are the LCC top pay scales of 150,000 ish the new standard? I hope not. I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Are the LCC top pay scales of 150,000 ish the new standard? I hope not. I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short.

With all respect to your flying background (which is similar to mine) we have been selling ourselves short for years by being willing to work at these crappy jobs to get qualified for a "real" job that could pay the mortgage and bills and raise a family on. We're well conditioned to sell ourselves short.

 

[Mugs]

Class? You folks thought you had your loan locked at the time and our request for a line of credit ment nothing to you other than a delay in our demise. BTW we only took a 78M loan. How long does 1.6B take to acrue 78M in interest?

Oh, Yeha... we paid our loan off including penalties while posting a profit.

Mugs,

You may be right, but I think our pilot group has a realistic perspective. Most of us would rather make 130K (plus profit based and cost of living raises) for the next 25 years than "jacking up the house" and making 250K for a few years.

F9:

Those that thought we had that ATSB loan "locked up" the first time around were poorly informed or simply wishful thinkers. There wasn't an analyst on Wall Street or Main Street that thought we had a good chance at getting it. Our management knew it too, but they also knew that getting the "broader, longer, and deeper" concessions that the Board called for after initial review would be impossible outside of CH11. So the dice were rolled with poor odds and the ATSB loan was rejected as expected. A proper decision I might ad, as we probably would have burned that cash up anyway with only modest cost cutting. While the odds might be better this time, there certainly is no "guarantee."

As far as jacking up the house goes: In retrospect, what was negotiated in 2000 looks pretty ridiculous given what has happened since. However, remeber two things about how things got there before thinking "our pilots would never do that." First, anyone remeber the Delta dot? That was a high point on a graph that represented the new pay rates that Delta had already negotiated for the 777. It was quite a jump above where any 777 or 747 rates were then and became a centerpiece to what we asked for. Now try and tell me that your pilot group won't consider a significant jump in pay at Airtran, JB, etc. when negotiating your next contract. Second, don't forget that thanks to the Goodwin 101 style of management, what was asked for changed significantly once the USAir deal was announced. When your anticipated career progression comes to a halt with one announcement from management, naturally you are going to ask for more to compensate. Throw in the emotions involved of just coming off a concessionary ESOP plus record profits and its not hard to understand why things went the way they did. Perhaps your pilot group will have learned a lesson from what happened at UAL. Quite frankly, I doubt it. Pilots seem to have very short memories in this business, especially around contract time.

 

[Ty Webb]

I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

Sounds like you have been a contributor to this problem, not a victim. You basically sold yourself short your entire career, and now you are surprised that when you get the brass ring, it doesn't pay what you thoght it would.

How ironic.

I skipped the night freight thing because it didn't pay enough (guys like you willing to do it for $60. a day). Then I flew corporate jets because the regionals didn't pay enough to support my family. Now I fly for a LCC, and I have to listen to some sanctimonious piece of work like you berate ME for working for less?

GMAFB!


It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short. [/i]

It amazes me that your Village let their prize idiot wander away. Go back to them.

 

[delivery100]

I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

Sounds like you have been a contributor to this problem, not a victim. You basically sold yourself short your entire career, and now you are surprised that when you get the brass ring, it doesn't pay what you thoght it would.

How ironic.

I skipped the night freight thing because it didn't pay enough (guys like you willing to do it for $60. a day). Then I flew corporate jets because the regionals didn't pay enough to support my family. Now I fly for a LCC, and I have to listen to some sanctimonious piece of work like you berate ME for working for less?

GMAFB!


It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short. [/i]

It amazes me that your Village let their prize idiot wander away. Go back to them.

My aviation jobs were STEPPING STONES, each one advancing further than the last. Yes, when I was a young pilot with fresh ink on my ticket, I flew at any chance I got to build my flight time and my resume with the goal of being a Professional Airline Pilot for a carrier with good pay, good bennies, and a pension. It was called PAYING YOUR DUES...... And Ty, if you were lucky enough to be a 250 hour corporate jet pilot, good for you!

Every time I blink, I see the bar lowered to a new level...its truely a race to the bottom. You watch, new start up airlines will come (ex. Virgin USA), pay their pilots 25% less than Jet Blue, ATA ect. and their will be thousands lined up for the job. Now your company is not doing as well because their costs are too high. You now have to compete with the super low cost carrier. Its a endless cycle until one of two things happen. Airline pilots set a minimum wage standard, or there is a shortage of pilots.

Just hoping that the viscious cycle ends sooner than later, and that good pay and benefits are not a thing of the past.

 

[F9 Driver]

Mugs,
Very well put and adds perspective on the contract 2000 for me.

Tell T-bags I'll start taking my ginko, and giving it to the rest of the F9 pilot group in hopes of bolstering our memories

Delivery100,

F that, I would have gone to law school.

Its never too late to start!

 

[crashpad]

Re: Re: My .02

Let's suppose F9 you guys have that UAL liquidation party you have been planning.

Party? How come I was'nt invited? I don't think there would be a party if UAL liquidated, it's too much fun having them to kick around. It's like Hogans Heroes! Who does'nt like the lovable Colonel Klinke and Sergeant Schultz?

 

[Mugs]

Geez thanks. Now I'll never get that Hogan's tune out of my head. I guess you guys will know it is me when I walk by humming it on my way to Ted land.