You LPC's must be proud....

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

Unfortunalty, I think pilots will still fly for MUCH less money than the pathetic cuts the airline guys are taking now....

$hit, there is a guy on the regional board who is saying after 10 years at his regional he will be up to 70K and he thinks "thats not too bad".......

I just cant believe it. Makes me sick.

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, T-Bags, my Mom (since you want to drag my family into this) probably has contributed more to SS than you ever will . . . . she was working on her Phd before either of us were born. Her mother probably contributed more than you, too, as one of the first female lawyers in this country (yes, your recent promotion at the Home Depot notwithstanding).

Anyway, you missed the point, again, which was that while your company's management is lobbying for the US taxpayer to pick up the tab for about $2 billion dollars worth of loan guarantees, (which I am pretty sure we will all end up paying for) you are squealing like a pig because my company is trying to make sure they fund your pension up until the time they close the doors.

Sounds to me like you ought to send ol' J.L. a "thank-you" note.


Just send it over to 9955 AirTran Blvd in Orlando, babe.

 

[Ty Webb]

First off, AirTran didn't find it necessary to apply for the loan guarantees. Since our cash needs were for growth, we were able to go to the capital markets to raise money, which we have used to greatly reduce our debt service.

Second, I guess "LPC" must be something you made up, since it doesn't appear anywhere else that i have seen.

If you want to start making up insulting acronyms for groups of pilots or their airlines, I'll be happy to play . . . . . .

Something for you to think about as you enjoy your FTTHD.

 

[F9 Driver]

Federal aid for United opposed

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_2696055,00.html

Federal aid for United opposed
Low-fare airlines say U.S. loan guarantee an unfair advantage

By Micheline Maynard, The New York Times
March 2, 2004

Alarmed at United Airlines' attempt to invade the low-fare market, an organization representing discount airlines, including Denver- based Frontier Airlines, said Monday that it planned to fight United's effort to win $1.6 billion in federal loan guarantees, which would be the centerpiece of its restructuring plan.

The group's vow is the first sign of public opposition within the industry to the revised bid by United, which filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2002, only days after its first application for a loan guarantee worth $1.8 billion was turned down.

United, a unit of the UAL Corp., is the nation's second-largest airline behind American, a unit of the AMR Corp. United wants to emerge from bankruptcy by the end of June. It has arranged $2 billion in exit financing, most of it contingent on the federal guarantee. The loan board does not face any deadline for deciding on United's application.

Low-fare airlines contend that a federal loan guarantee would give United unfair ammunition against its competitors, said Edward P. Faberman, executive director of the Air Carrier Association of America, a lobbying group whose members include Frontier, JetBlue Airways, America West Airlines, AirTran Airways and Spirit Airlines.

In particular, Faberman said those airlines were upset by the recent start of Ted, United's own low-fare airline, which began service last month from its Denver hub to cities in the West and in Florida. Next month, United plans to add Ted fights from Dulles International Airport outside Washington, D.C., and it expects to begin service later this year from Chicago, United's main base of operations.

Faberman said the airlines' chief executives would decide in the next few days whether to fight United individually or to act collectively under the lobbying group's umbrella. In either case, he said, "we will oppose it."

A spokeswoman for United, Jean Medina, said the airline was "flattered that these competitors consider us a competitive threat."

Monday, the airline group also said it opposed measures recently passed by Congress that would allow a group of major airlines, including United, to stretch out delinquent pension obligations over the next few years.

In a letter to the Bush administration, the chief executives of the five airlines called the measure "selective subsidization." The executives - David G. Neeleman of JetBlue, Joseph B. Leonard of AirTran, W. Douglas Parker of AmericaWest, Jeff S. Potter of Frontier and Jacob M. Schorr of Spirit - said pension relief should benefit the entire industry, "not be targeted to help a few airlines." The letter was reported by Time magazine in this week's issue.

United has said it cannot afford to emerge from bankruptcy without some form of pension relief. It also has applied for waivers from the Internal Revenue Service allowing it to stretch out the payments.

But Faberman said both the proposed loan guarantee package and the pension bill struck the low-fare airlines as unjustified.

"When it comes down to it, this is a highly competitive industry," Faberman said. "And the government shouldn't be forwarding money under one pretense to one group of carriers so they can continue their quest against the others."

United originally applied for loan guarantees from the federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board in June 2002. The board was formed after the September 2001 attacks to oversee $10 billion in assistance earmarked by Congress to help the struggling industry.

United's first application was heatedly opposed by several major airlines, including Continental and Northwest, which contended that United had not cut costs enough to warrant federal help and that its business plan was too optimistic.

Both were reasons cited by the loan board in turning down the initial request. The board also questioned whether United had a strategy to combat low-fare airlines, precisely what United has done by creating Ted, Medina said.

 

[F9 Driver]

My .02

Now before I get called a yahoo again I thought I'd weigh in on the subject, and give those of you who disagree with me a reason to

WTF is a LPC?

You mentioned a good point, I didn't touch on. Of the 5 LPC signatory airlines, THREE applied for ATSB help and two recieved low interest govenment loans. But largess is ok if it limited to an LPC huh?!

FYI - Frontier only took the loan because the ATSB didn't offer a line of credit. AND WE PAID IT ALL BACK!

We didn't have a shortage of cash but, we were concerned that UAL would get its loan, and act irrationally - anti-competitively as it has in the past - with its' new found money, and we needed to be covered in that case.

This is exactly what the signatories are concerned about now with Ted and a pile of money in UAL's hands.

Nothing has changed in UAL's business plan except furloughs, parking airplanes, and the addition of Ted.

So along comes Ted. 40 airplanes and A PLAN.

Not a good plan in my opinion, but a plan none the less. Something that PR folks like Medina can point to and say,
"See! We've got a plan to compete! Give us money so we can burn through it while hurting truly competitive businesses!"

ps. UAL still doesn't have a plan for how they will emerge from BK.

Under BK protection they have already depressed the yealds in many markets that they "compete" in.

Since the last ATSB denial UAL has hosed everybody with whom they had good faith contracts with up to and including employees - past and present.

I don't think the signatories want to be added to that list, and as a tax payer (no I don't pay as much as UAL, but it seems like alot to me) I don't want to either!

 

[delivery100]

"Nothing has changed in UAL's business plan except furloughs, parking airplanes, and the addition of Ted. "

Does 2.5 billion anually in labor savings qualify as part of the plan?? Ask any of UAL's 80,000 employees...

 

[F9 Driver]

Does 2.5 billion anually in labor savings qualify as part of the plan?? Ask any of UAL's 80,000 employees...

Yes it does count as part of the plan...

Since the last ATSB denial UAL has hosed everybody with whom they had good faith contracts with up to and including employees - past and present.

Every bit of savings seem to have come off the backs of those who thought they were holding up their end of the deal.

I stand corrected. There is a plan. I take exception to their plan, and so do many employees - past and present.

 

[T-Bags]

"probably has contributed more to SS than you ever will . . . . she was working on her Phd before either of us were born. Her mother probably contributed more than you, too, as one of the first female lawyers in this country"

Ty, in case you were unaware, SS is a "pay as you go plan". Your mom paid for granny who paid for great granny, so I'll stand by the statement that the fine, higher paid Capts at the majors are already paying far more for "other peoples" retirements than the government will ever pay for theirs (we'll leave hillary out of it, Chelsey...)

"WTF is a LPC?"

Since FRNT pays roughly the same for it's Jets as UAL (if not more) and the same for gas, and the same for landing fee's, ect, then that leaves only ONE item in "C", PAY. LOW PAY CARRIERS. I didn't think it was that tough to figure out. Did you take your Ginko today?

"FYI - Frontier only took the loan because the ATSB didn't offer a line of credit. AND WE PAID IT ALL BACK!"

FYI, FRONTIER TOOK THE LOAN!!! AND UAL HAD THE CLASS TO STAY OUT OF THAT PROCESS!! FRNT used those funds to unfairly attack UAL in DEN. Guess UAL just wants a level field, huh?

"I take exception to their plan, and so do many employees - past and present."

What part do YOU take exception to? The fact that even AFTER any cuts in retiree benefits, they are STILL higher than retireee bene's at FRNT? With all the pay cuts, they still pay employees MORE than FRNT. Your rightous indignation is comical.

 

[Dizel8]

"FYI, FRONTIER TOOK THE LOAN!!! AND UAL HAD THE CLASS TO STAY OUT OF THAT PROCESS!!"

UAL is seeking 1.6 B dollars, they were turned down once, they are still going after the money. Jeez!

 

[Mugs]

Re: My .02

Now before I get called a yahoo again I thought I'd weigh in on the subject, and give those of you who disagree with me a reason to



Under BK protection they have already depressed the yealds in many markets that they "compete" in.




Depressed yields. Yep. Let's suppose F9 you guys have that UAL liquidation party you have been planning. After a while, all those UAL airplanes get repainted (again) and guess what? Plenty of pilots out there would love to fly those Airbuses for significantly less than what you make now and certainly much less than you will be making after becoming the big dog. Plenty of people in today's economy will take a job at the ticket counter or on the ramp since Wal-Mart doesn't offer flight benefits. Just like that, you guys will have become the high cost provider, just like nasty old UAL once was. Then, you will get to talk about depressed yields all over again.

 

[F9 Driver]

Depressed yields. Yep. Let's suppose F9 you guys have that UAL liquidation party you have been planning.

Sorry. I ment yields. Never could spell, and now isn't any better.

I wish I could say I was PO'd over how my friends at UAL were out on the street, or how the leader in aviation has come to be laid low, but the truth is I'm truly PO'd because the best thing for F9 is a healthy UAL. I never wanted UAL to liquidate, and don't now.

There is plenty of traffic to go around and y'all taking up the space on B keeps others from coming in. The devil we know as opposed to the one we don't.

With all the pay cuts, they still pay employees MORE than FRNT. Your rightous indignation is comical

How much does a three year captain make at UAL today? And if your DB goes to the PBGC I, for one, wouldn't want to be making the comparison.

FYI, FRONTIER TOOK THE LOAN!!! AND UAL HAD THE CLASS TO STAY OUT OF THAT PROCESS!!

Class? You folks thought you had your loan locked at the time and our request for a line of credit ment nothing to you other than a delay in our demise. BTW we only took a 78M loan. How long does 1.6B take to acrue 78M in interest?

Oh, Yeha... we paid our loan off including penalties while posting a profit.

Mugs,

You may be right, but I think our pilot group has a realistic perspective. Most of us would rather make 130K (plus profit based and cost of living raises) for the next 25 years than "jacking up the house" and making 250K for a few years.

I made the comparison between pilots and MDs when I was in college, but the fact is teachers should be paid more, freight dogs loading their own freight and flying old pistons should be paid alot more, and dogs and cats should live in harmony, but it just don't work that way dude. We are worth what we can negotiate, and if that is more than the company can afford it will fold.

 

[Ty Webb]

Truer words have probably never been writtem.

 

[delivery100]

Truer words have probably never been writtem.

Can anyone tell me, has airline pilot salary been the primary reason ANY airline has ever gone out of business? Plenty of airlines that paid substandard wages are now among the many in the airline graveyards.

United pilots did get a good contract in 2000, that the company COULD afford to pay in the late 90's , and into 2000 before the perfect storm hit. Well, the shlt hit the fan, and the pilots were the first ones to agree to concessions to try and save the airline.

Airlines will come and go despite what they pay us as pilots, so I think it is our responsibility to raise the bar for our profession. Are the LCC top pay scales of 150,000 ish the new standard? I hope not. I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Are the LCC top pay scales of 150,000 ish the new standard? I hope not. I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short.

With all respect to your flying background (which is similar to mine) we have been selling ourselves short for years by being willing to work at these crappy jobs to get qualified for a "real" job that could pay the mortgage and bills and raise a family on. We're well conditioned to sell ourselves short.

 

[Mugs]

Class? You folks thought you had your loan locked at the time and our request for a line of credit ment nothing to you other than a delay in our demise. BTW we only took a 78M loan. How long does 1.6B take to acrue 78M in interest?

Oh, Yeha... we paid our loan off including penalties while posting a profit.

Mugs,

You may be right, but I think our pilot group has a realistic perspective. Most of us would rather make 130K (plus profit based and cost of living raises) for the next 25 years than "jacking up the house" and making 250K for a few years.

F9:

Those that thought we had that ATSB loan "locked up" the first time around were poorly informed or simply wishful thinkers. There wasn't an analyst on Wall Street or Main Street that thought we had a good chance at getting it. Our management knew it too, but they also knew that getting the "broader, longer, and deeper" concessions that the Board called for after initial review would be impossible outside of CH11. So the dice were rolled with poor odds and the ATSB loan was rejected as expected. A proper decision I might ad, as we probably would have burned that cash up anyway with only modest cost cutting. While the odds might be better this time, there certainly is no "guarantee."

As far as jacking up the house goes: In retrospect, what was negotiated in 2000 looks pretty ridiculous given what has happened since. However, remeber two things about how things got there before thinking "our pilots would never do that." First, anyone remeber the Delta dot? That was a high point on a graph that represented the new pay rates that Delta had already negotiated for the 777. It was quite a jump above where any 777 or 747 rates were then and became a centerpiece to what we asked for. Now try and tell me that your pilot group won't consider a significant jump in pay at Airtran, JB, etc. when negotiating your next contract. Second, don't forget that thanks to the Goodwin 101 style of management, what was asked for changed significantly once the USAir deal was announced. When your anticipated career progression comes to a halt with one announcement from management, naturally you are going to ask for more to compensate. Throw in the emotions involved of just coming off a concessionary ESOP plus record profits and its not hard to understand why things went the way they did. Perhaps your pilot group will have learned a lesson from what happened at UAL. Quite frankly, I doubt it. Pilots seem to have very short memories in this business, especially around contract time.

 

[Ty Webb]

I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

Sounds like you have been a contributor to this problem, not a victim. You basically sold yourself short your entire career, and now you are surprised that when you get the brass ring, it doesn't pay what you thoght it would.

How ironic.

I skipped the night freight thing because it didn't pay enough (guys like you willing to do it for $60. a day). Then I flew corporate jets because the regionals didn't pay enough to support my family. Now I fly for a LCC, and I have to listen to some sanctimonious piece of work like you berate ME for working for less?

GMAFB!


It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short. [/i]

It amazes me that your Village let their prize idiot wander away. Go back to them.

 

[delivery100]

I personally didnt go into massive debt to get my ratings, flight instruct for 4 years for beer money, fly single engine 135 cargo at night in the mountains at 60 bucks a day, fly for 4 more years at the regionals (Yes, still in debt, and growing) to ultimately fly for 150 grand a year with no pension. F that, I would have gone to law school.

Sounds like you have been a contributor to this problem, not a victim. You basically sold yourself short your entire career, and now you are surprised that when you get the brass ring, it doesn't pay what you thoght it would.

How ironic.

I skipped the night freight thing because it didn't pay enough (guys like you willing to do it for $60. a day). Then I flew corporate jets because the regionals didn't pay enough to support my family. Now I fly for a LCC, and I have to listen to some sanctimonious piece of work like you berate ME for working for less?

GMAFB!


It amazes me how so many pilots today sell themselves short. [/i]

It amazes me that your Village let their prize idiot wander away. Go back to them.

My aviation jobs were STEPPING STONES, each one advancing further than the last. Yes, when I was a young pilot with fresh ink on my ticket, I flew at any chance I got to build my flight time and my resume with the goal of being a Professional Airline Pilot for a carrier with good pay, good bennies, and a pension. It was called PAYING YOUR DUES...... And Ty, if you were lucky enough to be a 250 hour corporate jet pilot, good for you!

Every time I blink, I see the bar lowered to a new level...its truely a race to the bottom. You watch, new start up airlines will come (ex. Virgin USA), pay their pilots 25% less than Jet Blue, ATA ect. and their will be thousands lined up for the job. Now your company is not doing as well because their costs are too high. You now have to compete with the super low cost carrier. Its a endless cycle until one of two things happen. Airline pilots set a minimum wage standard, or there is a shortage of pilots.

Just hoping that the viscious cycle ends sooner than later, and that good pay and benefits are not a thing of the past.

 

[F9 Driver]

Mugs,
Very well put and adds perspective on the contract 2000 for me.

Tell T-bags I'll start taking my ginko, and giving it to the rest of the F9 pilot group in hopes of bolstering our memories

Delivery100,

F that, I would have gone to law school.

Its never too late to start!

 

[crashpad]

Re: Re: My .02

Let's suppose F9 you guys have that UAL liquidation party you have been planning.

Party? How come I was'nt invited? I don't think there would be a party if UAL liquidated, it's too much fun having them to kick around. It's like Hogans Heroes! Who does'nt like the lovable Colonel Klinke and Sergeant Schultz?

 

[Mugs]

Geez thanks. Now I'll never get that Hogan's tune out of my head. I guess you guys will know it is me when I walk by humming it on my way to Ted land.