You are out of your mind if you choose to work at NETJETS now

[Gulfstream 200]

Dude, you need to look in the mirror. You just described yourself. Corp pilots "just happen to fly the planes" too.

I don't see you (the pilot) building semiconductors, writing loans, or building anything but time. You "just fly the plane" too. Unless you work for one of those real jewel corp depts that make you work the office, loading dock, or drive a truck when you aren't flying. The people you carry in the back run the company.......oh wait, that's like us.

You think making a living where aviation IS making money is scary? You have your head screwed on backwards. As Catyaak said, corp departments are an expense on the part of the company you fly for. When times are bad, what gets trimmed? Profits of expenses?

We are ALL "just working in aviation."

By the way, I have seen several Fortune 100 flight department literally disappear. Departments around since the '30/'40s, gone overnight. No-one is immune, so watch out standing on that pedestal.

Yea, I know mine to January. How about you?

Free stereo, mountain bike, trips to Hawaii/Beach/etc.
And real live med/dental/vis too.

Our flight dept has made a few $billion. How about yours? Oh yea, you're an expense.


This argument has got to stop. It's the same as Commuter pilots saying they don't fly Regional jets, when the word Regional is stamped on the side of the plane.

We both fly other people in THEIR business jets.
We both fly non-scheduled business/personal flights.
We are both paid what our company feels is fair, whether we agree with the figure or not.

You can knock off the PFT ideas too. They did something similar for a limited time, decided it didn't work, and gave all of the money back. How many PFTs have ever given the money back, AND given them a type? There are corp departments that STILL require their people to pay for a type/training too. Many pay for the training and aren't allowed a type until they upgrade.

There are too many insecure people on this board that try to justify their place in life, and attempting to make themselves look more fortunate, by degrading everyone else's position.

It's o-v-e-r. Let's move on.

I know I just described myself, that was the point. We just fly the plane..where did I lose you?

is this all the info Netjets and santulli are feeding you as they stick it in your A$$ for 23K/yr??

oh sorry...you are a Capt...make that 38K/yr.....let me re-phrase that....."with my per diem and my free stereo from Marriott Points I make 41K/yr"...

frucking hilarious

 

[NJA Capt]

Would you quit copying the whole post? We all know what I posted. I think you need to re-read your own post.

I had a real elaborate response written, but I've decided to ignore your childish playground antics. Let's just say that your true ignorance about this shows. We know you don't like the fracs and we don't really don't care.

Remember the old saying? You have two ears and one mouth, because you are to listen twice as much as you talk.

I think that applies here too. Most of the respondents on this thread have made 200-300 posts in two years. You have made an astonishing 1598.

Something to think about.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dislike people who drag down industry salaries, thats what I DISLIKE.

None of us know truly how long we will have jobs - thats no secret...I just dont want to out interviewing one day and hear "well, Netjets tools are HAPPY to take this job for 70K/yr"..when it used to pay 120K+




41K/yr and a whole lotta Marriott Points..(are they included in salary?)


theres something to SERIOUSLY think about, ya know?





You're right, I dont understand fracs.


Best of Luck.

 

[NJA Capt]

I understand where you're coming from. We've heard the "dragging down the average" line for a decade, but there is a problem with that argument. This isn't specifically aimed at you.... but here it is.

There are approx 10,000 (turbine) corp operators (16k if you throw in turbine charter) in the USA, of which the main fracs are 4. The total frac pilot population is less than 3% of all 148,000 active ATP rated pilots. (NOT including the other 138,000 active commercial pilots in the USA).

There is no logical or mathematical way that 3% can skew the average of the other 97%. Or that 4 companies can bring down 16,000 other companies.

I can't imagine any GOOD flight department, using such a bad reason to justify lowering their pay. Nor have I heard of anyone using that to excuse their low pay. You would think after 18 years of fractional ops, someone would have first hand knowledge of this happening. I think "Myth Busters" would even debunk this theory.

Oddly, You don't hear near as much attention to the Regional Airlines pay which starts even lower than our 6 year old scale. That's scary.

http://www.nbaa.org/@@QBJEElW4LAES/factbook/2003/section4.htm

 

[Caveman]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

 

[USMC319]

No, they aren't.

Post # 27 on this thread is one of the best thought out and accuarate summaries I've read yet.

As COO of a large regional charter company, I had the opportunity to develop a quazi-fractional (regional) operation. From a management perspective Cat Yaaak understands the goal of management in regard to labor perfectly. Fractional labor is most closely comparable to charter labor. Fractionals are not set up to work like airlines in terms of wages and benefits. Fracs are hybrid charter models with a few airline style perks. The biggest benefit the fracs have over charter operators is that they are organized and have the ability to manipulate the model only with a strong Union and MEC. Otherwise it is like digging sand, and there will never be a real comparison to a legitamate "Corporate Flight Department" or a real Part 121 Airline.

Since my time in the Ivory Tower (mgmt), I have pursued my career as a Part 121 Captain for a very stable airline and haven't looked back. It is great. Good luck to you all in pursuit of a real contract and a strong union.

 

[DesertFalcon]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

For a second I thought you were posting some kind of weather report.... Winds aloft or something similar?

 

[Heavy Set]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

So, they look pretty competitive although Comair wages increase faster in the beginning... If you factor in the 7/7 schedule and the current gateway system (for grandfathered pilots), Netjets looks pretty good. And a Citation X outclimbs a CRJ-200 anyday... Too bad none of the NJA pilots are respected by the dispatchers or management...

 

[Lancair]

Question

I currently work for Independance Air. I'm going to get furloughed in January. Starting pay is better than what I make there now I believe. Would it be an ok place to work for say a year? Would I have to give up my senority number? Thanks for the help.

 

[Diesel]

griz i thought with the new contract they do away with the training contracts. At least that is what the letter said.

I'm betting the only thing holding people here are the training contracts.

Do away with that and this place will have more turnover than a mcdonalds.

 

[FL450]

The new CBA will not require training contracts. It will also negate those currently in force.

 

[Caveman]

Look, I just posted the numbers for comparison's sake sans any commentary, but a couple of you just just couldn't resist being a smarta$$.

Griz,

Hope in one hand and $hit in the other. Tell me which one fills up first. Fact is you aren't competitive now and the way things are going your new contract may not get you there either.

Heavyset,

They aren't even close. Except for 1st year pay any CMR pilot makes approximately $5K - $17K more than their NJ counterpart for doing less work and being home more days. It's not until you compare 8th year Capt pay does it get about even. That's not even considering the differences in 1st and 2nd year Capt pay because neither is a realistic opportunity at either company right now. The 7/7 schedule is in the minority at NJ and even if it were the norm who wants to be gone for 7 days at a time. The Citation X outclimbs any Boeing too. So what? Yeah it really looks like the NJ pilots are being respected by management. Look at how well the negotiations are going.

What is it with some of you? The small jet community is routinely villified as being substandard yet when the facts are compared side by side we fare pretty well. Flying a CRJ/ERJ for a jet national airline isn't as bad as some of you would like to make out.

Despite the above comments, I sincerely hope that the NJ pilots get a great contract. I'm just responding to these two knucklehead's smarta$$ posts.

 

[NJA Capt]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.

Accuracy?

Those numbers are pretty exaggerated according to http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/comair/comair.htm

A few flaws with your comparison. First, that is Comair's new pay scale compared to our 6 year old scale. They have a 75 hour min (avg 80+) compared to our 40-50 hour avg month.
Per Diem is N-O-T salary! I know your NJA figures did not include per diem, did Comairs? Knock out that 6-7k for per diem and I think those numbers get a lot closer.

No per diem,
No OT,
No extended days,
Just plain, flat, base pay.

"Regional Pilots Worth"
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showth...5&highlight=w-2
I know these aren't CA, but....

13 years at Eagle to make 80K?!?!?!?!

and

A quote from blueridge71:
"I am a regional FO with just over two years seniority.
...I currently spend approximately three weeks a month on the road.
...Typically we have 2-3 days off between trips.
...Our contract gives us 11 days off.
...I made $21,000 last year. It rises to $28,000 if you count per diem.
...since I got a pay raise to the CRJ scale this year...I'll probably still only make $30-35K."

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Dear God please stop comparing yourself to regional airlines.

Dont feel special, the guy at Starbucks or Mcdonalds makes more than those guys too...

so ya got em' beat Ace.......congratulations

 

[NJA Capt]

please stop comparing yourself to regional airlines.

Sure.....as soon as you stop telling us how much more you make and how much better your life is.

Like Louis Grizzard used to say: "It's like two mules fighting over a turnip. Who cares?"

If you don't like what you read, why do you keep reading the frac threads?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Never said how much I make. I do fine, but it could always be better. I can say, honestly, I make a very fair wage and am fortunate....and you?

I love it...."go to your own board"..

Dont get huffy, I do like many things I read here..like:

"warning, this place will screw you, stay away" - good advice
"we wont take that $hit money offer" - great! dont! vote NO!
"They can afford to do more" yes they can
"we deserve better" YES YOU DO.

Its all true.

Just makes me ill when folks justify it by saying "we do better than the regionals" - there is something to aspire to, huh?

How about the NBAA averages?
How about the majors?
the LCC's?
Starbucks?

raise your bar Capt, its all scratched up from lying on the ground for so long..

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Hope in one hand and $hit in the other. Tell me which one fills up first.

I posted this exact same thing....virtually word for word...in another thread. Someone got offended. Turned me in to the moderators. One of 'em PMd me and asked that I watch it. You know...whacked my pee pee. So, I have tried to watch it since. Sort of. I wonder if the moderators will whack you, too? Or is it just me??? Or my "name"?

Before I get censored again, I suppose I'll lay low for a while.

 

[Caveman]

Yes, accuracy.

The numbers I posted are hourly pay X 1000 for the year. CMR lines are built to an 83 hour minimum and you are pay protected for that amount (83X12=996 hours of pay per year, minimum). Forgive me for rounding! The NJ numbers were monthly salary X 12. Unless you end up working an extra day that's all you get, right? I did not include per diem for either company. Where am I being inaccurate?

I'm not trying to bash NJA or any frac, but the FALSE impression is that fracs pay much better than regionals. That's just not true and it's the only point I was trying to make.

 

[On Your Six]

Look, I just posted the numbers for comparison's sake sans any commentary, but a couple of you just just couldn't resist being a smarta$$.

Griz,

Hope in one hand and $hit in the other. Tell me which one fills up first. Fact is you aren't competitive now and the way things are going your new contract may not get you there either.

Heavyset,

They aren't even close. Except for 1st year pay any CMR pilot makes approximately $5K - $17K more than their NJ counterpart for doing less work and being home more days. It's not until you compare 8th year Capt pay does it get about even. That's not even considering the differences in 1st and 2nd year Capt pay because neither is a realistic opportunity at either company right now. The 7/7 schedule is in the minority at NJ and even if it were the norm who wants to be gone for 7 days at a time. The Citation X outclimbs any Boeing too. So what? Yeah it really looks like the NJ pilots are being respected by management. Look at how well the negotiations are going.

What is it with some of you? The small jet community is routinely villified as being substandard yet when the facts are compared side by side we fare pretty well. Flying a CRJ/ERJ for a jet national airline isn't as bad as some of you would like to make out.

Despite the above comments, I sincerely hope that the NJ pilots get a great contract. I'm just responding to these two knucklehead's smarta$$ posts.

Hey Caveman,

Knucklehead post? Very professional. Why don't you lighten up man? Note that Heavy thought the NJA pilots WERE NOT respected by their dispatchers and management. He acknowledged the total lack of respect for the pilot group. Is it possible that some people would naturally be more inclined to fly the fractional lifestyle than fly the same old boring routes over and over and over?

Everyone knows that NJA pay sucks and that the NJA pilots deserve much higher wages. We all hope it gets better soon - and don't knock other people who actually enjoy flying and would look forward to flying high-performance aircraft (not everyone is jaded like you)....

Comair will have slow growth for the foreseeable future with limited Captain upgrades - that's a fact. Don't expect an influx of additional CRJs any time soon and the 100 seaters will go to the DAL mainliners. Comair career growth will be dead in the water for many people (especially if J4J is instituted - you never know...) who might expect faster upgrades. I wouldn't get so excited about sitting in the right seat of a CRJ for 8-10 years....

 

[Caveman]

Six,

I'm not knocking anybody. I simply posted some numbers to consider and Griz and Heavyset posted what I interpreted as smarta$$ed comments. I was responding to their sarcasm. After rereading Heavyset's post I see how his managment comment could be read differently.

How did you conclude that I was jaded? Ever fly with me? I love my job and if anything I'm too upbeat about what I do. That's why when my sector of the industry is disparaged I defend it.

As far as growth and upgrade at CMR it isn't any worse than it is now at NJ. According to some of the numbers posted on this thread it will be 3-5 years for a NJ newhire to upgrade. That's no different than what's going on at Comair right now. The numbers show that a pilot would be better off financially stuck in the right seat of one of our CRJs as opposed to being stuck in the right seat of a bizjet at NJA.

Frac or airline? They are different animals in some ways and the same thing in other ways. Choose your own poison. I'm just trying to kill the myth that regional pilots are grossly underpaid and get paid much less than a frac pilot.

 

[FracCapt]

Yep,

That's what I was hoping for when I came here. To be competitive with a regional...

But at least you can outclimb and outrun an RJ in your X.....according to some, THAT is worth making less money!