You are out of your mind if you choose to work at NETJETS now

[Caveman]

V70T5 posted:

"It never ceases to amaze me as to how many bottom dwellers we have in our profession... case in point, you call netjets guys cry babies right? Do you feel that $28K for FO and $39K for Captain in a jet carrying around wealthy and important people and working your ass off for 6 to 7 days off in a row is good pay??? IF so you must be some kind of Walmart trailer trash pilot who has low career expectations and a low self worth."

In case you haven't noticed, all the NJ pilots on property already agreed that their current contract was adequate or else they wouldn't have agreed to work there. Does that make them all "Walmart trailer trash pilots" or "bottom dwellers"? Or are you suggesting that it's o.k. to take a bottom dwelling trailer trash job as long as you complain about it later? Why was it o.k. for the current NJ pilots to accept the job under these terms but it's not o.k. for a new guy to take the same job under the same terms?

I support the NJ pilots efforts to get a better contract, but I also support the new guy wanting to get started.

 

[Lrjet55]

I understand your point Caveman but what we are trying to tell people is dont get your start here.


Go to a regional and build the time twice as fast for the same money and a thousand times less hassle.

We all did come to Nutjets knowing what we were getting into, this is true. For probably over 1000 of us we were also told the contract would be completed within a few months, our dipsh!t MEC members told us what salaries to expect and the owner of the company told us he would shell out the big money if we gave him the flexibility.

Now, can you beleive everything the owner of the company says, obviously not.

Can you believe everything the management folks tell you in the interview briefings, well, you try to read between the lines.

When you get suckered in and accept the job here can you believe your own MEC...HELL NO!!!!

Sad part is all of us did for one reason or another. Now we are here feeling duped and, yes, we are complaining about it.

Never in our wildest dreams did we imagine that our future management MEC members would do such a poor job of negotiating a contract. I would never say that they have intentionally sold us out but through consistently poor advise, poor negotiating tactics and poor representation we have arrived at the point where we are now.

Brief synopsis and a few examples.

First,NJA's MEC wasted 4 months negotiating duty and rest when they knew that subpart K was coming out. They spent 4 freaking months negotiating something that didnt need to be negotiated because when the FAA mandated fractional companies adhere to Subpart K duty and rest were completed in 1 week!

Next, MEC members were quoted as saying "we will not accept anything less that 120K to 125K at year five for an airplane around 30,000lbs." This statement and subsequent statements there after were all very similar. If you are told by the supposed leaders of your union figures such as these you begin to dream about a possible reality.
This weekend we will probably see a TA placing a 5 year captain making around 70K. Thats quite a disparity between what we were told to what we will see.

My point here is explain to prospective NJA employees that this place is not a career job. Its not even a descent stepping stone. As I mentioned earlier you can accomplish your goals much faster by applying to a regional instead.

If you want to be worked like a dog, be gone 7 days a time, never fly a leg with passengers, fly with guys who will turn an airplane in 15 minutes evne thought were supposed to take an hour or any of the countless other reason mentions on this BBS then welsome aboard.

If staying in nice hotels and eating alot of crew food is a sufficient quality of life aspect worth putting up with the negatives then weclcome aboard.

In essence we are a Berkshire Hathaway/ Warren Buffet company. Based on any prior knowledge of this company who in their wildest dreams could have imagined that making 70K after 5 years would be the best you could do.
I personally do not buy it but our MEC does and they will TA it.

 

[Caveman]

Lrjet55,

There is a world of difference between your tone and V70T5's. Advising someone not come to NJ because it's not good right now and the future doesn't look very promising is a lot different than calling someone considering NJ a "Walmart trailer trash bottom feeder".

 

[Lrjet55]

In my opinion working for Walmart is a huge step up compared to NJA.

 

[CatYaaak]

IIs Netjet's real corporate pilot pay? Why shouldn't they get "real corporate pilot's pay" ? Aren't they corporate pilots?

No, they aren't.

Like it or not, frac pilots are considered a commodity, labor, working for and being paid by companies who's core business is aviation, and flying airplanes that generate direct revenue (along with mngmt fees etc). That's the nature of the business, and because of this structure, there's a disconnect between the "psuedo-owers" businesses and the pilot's. They aren't fellow employees, the money-relationship is more akin to an airline or charter pilot's with the paying customer in back. And like any airline or charter company, this direct revenue-generating part of operating the aircraft in the frac company's profit equation on a per-hour basis, the frac company will attempt to keep wages as low as possible. They don't care who's filling the seat, as long as they work for the lowest wage possible and don't crash. The fact that frac pilots are paid hourly wages, unionize or consider it necessary, and are at loggerheads with management says it all.

On the other hand, a corporate flight department NEVER generates direct revenue, and flying airplanes isn't the company's core business. Corporate airplanes are an expense, a special-use tool that either saves the larger comany time/money, makes money for it only by indirect means, or furthers larger company strategy and security goals. In the good ones anyway, pilots who are a good fit are seen as an asset to be retained, and paid accordingly in yearly salary and benefits. The pilots and people in back are working for the same company.

It didn't "just happen" that corporate flight departments pay better than fractionals. Fractionals came into being and became successful in part because their labor costs were/are low. The vast majority of pilots going to worked for fracs in those expanding, formative years a decade ago were PFT-ing and signing training contracts and working for crap wages mainly for one reason...to build stepping-stone jet time where there was none to be had at the regionals because RJs were still rare. Most of those early airline-bound frac pilots never intended to fly in the corporate world, or bothered to find out much about it. It was never a corporate job...it was, and still is, a morphed charter/airline operation that included enough tax breaks they found it necessary to write a new supart for.

Well, frac companies STILL work on that revenue-generating equation they were built on. What changed though, is that now with no places to step to, frac pilots there have finally awakened to the fact that the wages suck. But comparing frac companies and corporate flight departments..while it's a handy illusion by virtue of the fact they fly similar aircraft...is an illusion nonetheless.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well said....big differences..

Frac pilots make a living working in "Aviation"..

Corp pilots make thier living working in telecom, finance, manufacturing, etc....whatever thier company does - they just happen to fly the airplanes.

Making your living at a company where revenues are based on "Aviation" is just plain scary these days == and thats unfortunate.

 

[Lrjet55]

The very fact we are not a corporate flight department means our lives are supposedly better due to a schedule, benefits and perceived sense of secuity. On the other hand a typical corporate flight department has less RON's, less benefits and makes a larger salary since showing a profit is not in the equation. NJA has taken the best of both arguments and created a formula for what we have today.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The very fact we are not a corporate flight department means our lives are supposedly better due to a schedule, benefits and perceived sense of secuity. On the other hand a typical corporate flight department has less RON's, less benefits and makes a larger salary since showing a profit is not in the equation. NJA has taken the best of both arguments and created a formula for what we have today.

lives better due to schedule?
benefits?
sense of security?

Is that what they are telling newbies over there???

The only formula that has been created is the formula for abusing the $hit out of a charter pilot at regional airline pay....Netjets.

guys, shop around, there is much better out there!

 

[NJA Capt]

Frac pilots make a living working in "Aviation"..

Corp pilots make their living working in telecom, finance, manufacturing, etc....whatever their company does - they just happen to fly the airplanes.

Making your living at a company where revenues are based on "Aviation" is just plain scary these days == and that's unfortunate.

Dude, you need to look in the mirror. You just described yourself. Corp pilots "just happen to fly the planes" too.

I don't see you (the pilot) building semiconductors, writing loans, or building anything but time. You "just fly the plane" too. Unless you work for one of those real jewel corp depts that make you work the office, loading dock, or drive a truck when you aren't flying. The people you carry in the back run the company.......oh wait, that's like us.

You think making a living where aviation IS making money is scary? You have your head screwed on backwards. As Catyaak said, corp departments are an expense on the part of the company you fly for. When times are bad, what gets trimmed? Profits of expenses?

We are ALL "just working in aviation."

By the way, I have seen several Fortune 100 flight department literally disappear. Departments around since the '30/'40s, gone overnight. No-one is immune, so watch out standing on that pedestal.

lives better due to schedule?

Yea, I know mine to January. How about you?

benefits?

Free stereo, mountain bike, trips to Hawaii/Beach/etc.
And real live med/dental/vis too.

sense of security?

Our flight dept has made a few $billion. How about yours? Oh yea, you're an expense.


This argument has got to stop. It's the same as Commuter pilots saying they don't fly Regional jets, when the word Regional is stamped on the side of the plane.

We both fly other people in THEIR business jets.
We both fly non-scheduled business/personal flights.
We are both paid what our company feels is fair, whether we agree with the figure or not.

You can knock off the PFT ideas too. They did something similar for a limited time, decided it didn't work, and gave all of the money back. How many PFTs have ever given the money back, AND given them a type? There are corp departments that STILL require their people to pay for a type/training too. Many pay for the training and aren't allowed a type until they upgrade.

There are too many insecure people on this board that try to justify their place in life, and attempting to make themselves look more fortunate, by degrading everyone else's position.

It's o-v-e-r. Let's move on.

 

[Lrjet55]

The only formula that has been created is the formula for abusing the $hit out of a charter pilot at regional airline pay....Netjets.

This was the jist of my post only I submitted it without your elitist attitude.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Dude, you need to look in the mirror. You just described yourself. Corp pilots "just happen to fly the planes" too.

I don't see you (the pilot) building semiconductors, writing loans, or building anything but time. You "just fly the plane" too. Unless you work for one of those real jewel corp depts that make you work the office, loading dock, or drive a truck when you aren't flying. The people you carry in the back run the company.......oh wait, that's like us.

You think making a living where aviation IS making money is scary? You have your head screwed on backwards. As Catyaak said, corp departments are an expense on the part of the company you fly for. When times are bad, what gets trimmed? Profits of expenses?

We are ALL "just working in aviation."

By the way, I have seen several Fortune 100 flight department literally disappear. Departments around since the '30/'40s, gone overnight. No-one is immune, so watch out standing on that pedestal.

Yea, I know mine to January. How about you?

Free stereo, mountain bike, trips to Hawaii/Beach/etc.
And real live med/dental/vis too.

Our flight dept has made a few $billion. How about yours? Oh yea, you're an expense.


This argument has got to stop. It's the same as Commuter pilots saying they don't fly Regional jets, when the word Regional is stamped on the side of the plane.

We both fly other people in THEIR business jets.
We both fly non-scheduled business/personal flights.
We are both paid what our company feels is fair, whether we agree with the figure or not.

You can knock off the PFT ideas too. They did something similar for a limited time, decided it didn't work, and gave all of the money back. How many PFTs have ever given the money back, AND given them a type? There are corp departments that STILL require their people to pay for a type/training too. Many pay for the training and aren't allowed a type until they upgrade.

There are too many insecure people on this board that try to justify their place in life, and attempting to make themselves look more fortunate, by degrading everyone else's position.

It's o-v-e-r. Let's move on.

I know I just described myself, that was the point. We just fly the plane..where did I lose you?

is this all the info Netjets and santulli are feeding you as they stick it in your A$$ for 23K/yr??

oh sorry...you are a Capt...make that 38K/yr.....let me re-phrase that....."with my per diem and my free stereo from Marriott Points I make 41K/yr"...

frucking hilarious

 

[NJA Capt]

Would you quit copying the whole post? We all know what I posted. I think you need to re-read your own post.

I had a real elaborate response written, but I've decided to ignore your childish playground antics. Let's just say that your true ignorance about this shows. We know you don't like the fracs and we don't really don't care.

Remember the old saying? You have two ears and one mouth, because you are to listen twice as much as you talk.

I think that applies here too. Most of the respondents on this thread have made 200-300 posts in two years. You have made an astonishing 1598.

Something to think about.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dislike people who drag down industry salaries, thats what I DISLIKE.

None of us know truly how long we will have jobs - thats no secret...I just dont want to out interviewing one day and hear "well, Netjets tools are HAPPY to take this job for 70K/yr"..when it used to pay 120K+




41K/yr and a whole lotta Marriott Points..(are they included in salary?)


theres something to SERIOUSLY think about, ya know?





You're right, I dont understand fracs.


Best of Luck.

 

[NJA Capt]

I understand where you're coming from. We've heard the "dragging down the average" line for a decade, but there is a problem with that argument. This isn't specifically aimed at you.... but here it is.

There are approx 10,000 (turbine) corp operators (16k if you throw in turbine charter) in the USA, of which the main fracs are 4. The total frac pilot population is less than 3% of all 148,000 active ATP rated pilots. (NOT including the other 138,000 active commercial pilots in the USA).

There is no logical or mathematical way that 3% can skew the average of the other 97%. Or that 4 companies can bring down 16,000 other companies.

I can't imagine any GOOD flight department, using such a bad reason to justify lowering their pay. Nor have I heard of anyone using that to excuse their low pay. You would think after 18 years of fractional ops, someone would have first hand knowledge of this happening. I think "Myth Busters" would even debunk this theory.

Oddly, You don't hear near as much attention to the Regional Airlines pay which starts even lower than our 6 year old scale. That's scary.

http://www.nbaa.org/@@QBJEElW4LAES/factbook/2003/section4.htm

 

[Caveman]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

 

[USMC319]

No, they aren't.

Post # 27 on this thread is one of the best thought out and accuarate summaries I've read yet.

As COO of a large regional charter company, I had the opportunity to develop a quazi-fractional (regional) operation. From a management perspective Cat Yaaak understands the goal of management in regard to labor perfectly. Fractional labor is most closely comparable to charter labor. Fractionals are not set up to work like airlines in terms of wages and benefits. Fracs are hybrid charter models with a few airline style perks. The biggest benefit the fracs have over charter operators is that they are organized and have the ability to manipulate the model only with a strong Union and MEC. Otherwise it is like digging sand, and there will never be a real comparison to a legitamate "Corporate Flight Department" or a real Part 121 Airline.

Since my time in the Ivory Tower (mgmt), I have pursued my career as a Part 121 Captain for a very stable airline and haven't looked back. It is great. Good luck to you all in pursuit of a real contract and a strong union.

 

[DesertFalcon]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

For a second I thought you were posting some kind of weather report.... Winds aloft or something similar?

 

[Heavy Set]

There have been a couple of references to regional pay with the suggestion that it is even worse than NJ pay. Just for the sake of accuracy here is a side by side comparison of CMR and NJ.


NJA FO 27120 28320 29640 30640 32160
CMR FO 23000 37000 38000 40000 41000

NJA CA 37560 39840 47160 57960 60960 64200 67560 74520 77640
CMR CA 60000 62000 64000 66000 68000 70000 72000 75000 77000

(Sorry about the bold text. I haven't figured out how to not make it bold when I cut and paste text from a Word document.)

So, they look pretty competitive although Comair wages increase faster in the beginning... If you factor in the 7/7 schedule and the current gateway system (for grandfathered pilots), Netjets looks pretty good. And a Citation X outclimbs a CRJ-200 anyday... Too bad none of the NJA pilots are respected by the dispatchers or management...

 

[Lancair]

Question

I currently work for Independance Air. I'm going to get furloughed in January. Starting pay is better than what I make there now I believe. Would it be an ok place to work for say a year? Would I have to give up my senority number? Thanks for the help.

 

[Diesel]

griz i thought with the new contract they do away with the training contracts. At least that is what the letter said.

I'm betting the only thing holding people here are the training contracts.

Do away with that and this place will have more turnover than a mcdonalds.