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You are not going to believe this

m4j2t

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Here's a fun one...

you're IMC, on your way to airport abc where the weather is 300 and 3/4sm.

The glideslope is notam'd OTS.

The controller says "cleared for the ILS, glideslope unusable."

WHAT?!!

is this legal? and what does it mean?

again, reference material, not opinion
 

aucfi

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you are permitted to shoot the approach as if it were just a localizer approach. Use the published step down altitudes and MDA set forth in the LOC minimum (S-LOC RWY)
 

m4j2t

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where does it say that an ILS is a precision approach
 

aucfi

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Front of the TERPS.

"ILS glide slope inoperative minimums are published on the instrument approach charts as localizer minimums"

AIM 1-1-9

Inoperative ILS Components

When the Glide Slope fails, the ILS reverts to a nonprecision localizer approach.
 
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CA1900

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Sure it's legal. They're saying you're cleared for the localizer-only approach, but since the NAME of the approach is "ILS XX," ATC calls it that, adding that the GS is unusable. The name of the approach hasn't changed, only the way you fly it and the minimums.

It means you fly it as a non-precision localizer approach, doing step-downs at the appropriate points as depicted in the profile view. Separate approach minimums are published for this, under the heading "LOC," as opposed to the full ILS minimums.

A 300 foot ceiling may or may not allow you to see the runway in time, but 3/4-mile vis shouldn't be a problem. Take a look at the ILS 08L in ATL as an example. Full ILS mins are 1800 RVR, with a 200 foot DH. Localizer-only minimums are 2400 RVR, and a 425 (AGL) MDA.

Were this the approach you were doing, it'd be pefectly legal to shoot it. If it were a thick 300' overcast, you probably wouldn't see it at MDA, but you'd fine to try it as long as you have the required visibility (which you would).

Hope that helps.
 

bafanguy

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m4j2t said:
.

The glideslope is notam'd OTS.

The controller says "cleared for the ILS, glideslope unusable."
m4,

Sounds like you had checked the NOTAMS...good show. Was there also an ATIS available supporting the info in the NOTAM ? NOTAMS aren't always current so an ATIS or question to approach about the GS status would be a good idea.

The big thing is not let them slam you into a non-precision approach when you were expecting/set up for a precision approach; they are two very different animals in the planning and execution. Scrambling to retool for the surprise is a setup for a mistake. You tell THEM what you're going to do.
 

wheelsup

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I think this is what he was confused this, not what mins to use:

The controller says "cleared for the ILS, glideslope unusable."
CA1900 stated the reason, but I think it might of gotten lost.

Sure it's legal. They're saying you're cleared for the localizer-only approach, but since the NAME of the approach is "ILS XX," ATC calls it that, adding that the GS is unusable. The name of the approach hasn't changed, only the way you fly it and the minimums.
ATC can't just 'make up' approaches. They will clear you for the name of the approach that is on the approach plate, hence why the controller cleared you for the ILS. Because the GS was inop, they must remind you (per controllers handbook I believe) when they clear you for the approach that the component is inop. Hence, you'd do like everyone else said here and use the LOC mins.

Sorry if I just repeated everything ya'll said ealier.

~wheelsup
 

sbav8r

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Sooooo... What did you do? Did you fly the approach? Did you set it up as the LOC?
 

Lead Sled

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aucfi said:
you are permitted to shoot the approach as if it were just a localizer approach. Use the published step down altitudes and MDA set forth in the LOC minimum (S-LOC RWY)
That's where having an FMS really shines...
Depending upon your magic box, you can often simply switch the approach to a localizer and soldier on using a psuedo-glideslope - without skipping a beat.

'Sled
 

NoPax

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I was teaching in Long Beach when this happened, and it came up a few times with students. As already stated:

The Title of the approach is the Long Beach ILS Rwy 30

ATC are telling you that the Glideslope is unusable.

Sometimes they will also have a Localizer only titled approach with different fixes, or procedures - perhaps if the tower is closed, no radar, no dme/ndb etc., or with a procedure turn of some sort.
 

Vector4fun

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I'm not sure exactly what you're questioning, but if it was the controller's phraseology, he/she was exactly correct. From the Controller's Handbook:

4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. Clear aircraft for "standard" or "special" instrument approach procedures only. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference. An aircraft conducting an ILS/MLS approach when the glideslope/glidepath is reported out of service shall be advised at the time an approach clearance is issued. Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar facilities may vector aircraft to the final approach course in accordance with para 5-9-1, Vectors to Final Approach Course.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED (type) APPROACH.

(For a straight-in-approach- IFR),

CLEARED STRAIGHT-IN (type) APPROACH.

(To authorize a pilot to execute his/her choice of instrument approach),

CLEARED APPROACH.

(Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown),

CLEARED (specific procedure to be flown) APPROACH.

(To authorize a pilot to execute an ILS/MLS approach when the glideslope/glidepath is out of service),

CLEARED (type) APPROACH, GLIDESLOPE/GLIDEPATH UNUSABLE.
EXAMPLE-
"Cleared Approach."
"Cleared V-O-R Approach."
"Cleared V-O-R Runway Three Six Approach."
"Cleared F-M-S Approach."
"Cleared F-M-S Runway Three Six Approach."
"Cleared I-L-S Approach."
"Cleared Localizer Back Course Runway One Three Approach."
"Cleared R-NAV Runway Two Two Approach."
"Cleared GPS Runway Two Approach."
"Cleared BRANCH ONE R-NAV Arrival and R-NAV Runway One Three Approach."
"Cleared I-L-S Runway Three Six Approach, glideslope unusable."





If you're questioning whether he should have cleared you with those wx conditions, that's the PIC's call, not the controller's. You tell me you want the approach, I'll make sure you have the weather and RVR, and then I'll clear you. I think perhaps the Air Force is different, (or used to be) but I've always been taught to let the pilot make the call. That doesn't mean FSDO won't question you about it after the fact though.....
 

m4j2t

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Vector got it...figured he would.

this was a training question I recently came accross. I finally found it in the controller's handbook.

It sounds weird because it sounds like a precision approach clearance, but you are using non precision procedures.
 

El Bucho

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The other reason they say "....glideslope unusable" is so that there is absolutely no confusion that you are not to use the slope for vertical guidance. I can't remember where or when it was, but I think that it steemed from a foreign airline in some country flying their airplane into a mountain becuase they "thought they were on the glideslope" when infact the glideslope had been notamed inop....

EB
 

mar

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Not enough info

Are you Part 91 or 135/121?

If 91 then you can shoot it zero/zero all day.

If for hire, then only the vis is controlling. Sorry, too lazy for reference, but it's not my opinion.

Good luck.
 
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