YET MORE Mainline Flights Going to RJ's--Hope someone is TALLYING all these!

[Yuppyguppy]

Mainline pilots don't want to fly the lawndarts. They chose to scope them out. It was THEIR choice. They sold their soul to the devil 2 decades ago. They can't have their cake and eat it too. This is a different industry now. Things change in every industry over time. Industry evolves over time as well. The argument that all rj's should be flown at mainline is no longer valid. Those days are long gone.

Those days long gone??? I think the public is waking up to the fact that EXPERIENCED pilots are leaving the industry because they are being forced out by management and the new winged RJ pilots. Did you see the latest Chicago Tribune? Yesterday shed new light on what is really going on. The public wants experience and they just might be choosing full size airplanes instead of your lawndarts...

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Those days long gone??? I think the public is waking up to the fact that EXPERIENCED pilots are leaving the industry because they are being forced out by management and the new winged RJ pilots. Did you see the latest Chicago Tribune? Yesterday shed new light on what is really going on. The public wants experience and they just might be choosing full size airplanes instead of your lawndarts...

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story
chicagotribune.com

Bigger role of small airlines raises safety concerns

Critics worry about long hours, but trade group touts safety

By Julie Johnsson and Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune reporters
June 10, 2009


Nick Fulks says he met the "bare minimum requirements" when, at age 23, with 1,020 hours of flight experience, he was hired to fly jets for a large commuter airline.

Make no mistake: Fulks loves to fly, and he is a serious student of everything aviation.

But the hours are abysmal and the pay is so low that Fulks, who had shared an apartment out of economic necessity, is moving back to his parents' house in Rogers Park two years into his career.

Struggles like his -- handling stress and fatigue and mastering a learning curve in the cockpit that plays out over years -- long have been a standard practice in the airline industry. It is aviation's equivalent to physicians training as a resident.

But as regional carriers become big business, some safety experts question whether pilot fatigue, training and salaries that demand overtime hours are eroding safety standards.

This sector exploded in size and importance this decade as cash-strapped airlines like United, American, Delta, Continental and US Airways shrank their regular operations and outsourced more flying to regional or feeder carriers. These contract partners operate planes, which hold between 10 and 100 passengers, emblazoned with the large carriers' logos.

Once the provider of short puddle-jump flights, regional carriers operate about half of all the commercial airline flights in the U.S. and carry about 20 percent of commercial airline passengers. During a four-year stretch following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the amount of flying they handled nearly tripled, according to data compiled for the Tribune by OAG, which tracks airline data.

Commuter airlines are required to meet the same federal safety and training standards as the major airlines. But a recent spate of accidents involving this sector has heightened concerns that rapid growth at some carriers may have jeopardized safeguards.

The February crash of a Colgan Air/Continental Connection plane that killed 50 people near Buffalo has focused attention on flight-training lapses and the financial pressures faced by pilots who are trying to make a living flying smaller planes. Many regional pilots commute cross country and spend nights in airport crew lounges to save money.

Some question whether the FAA, whose inspectors are stretched thin, has delegated sufficient resources to the sector. Like pilots at the airlines they oversee, inspectors handling regional carriers are the most junior at the agency, said Linda Goodrich, an FAA inspector and vice president of the Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, a union representing the inspectors.

But the trade group representing regional carriers insists they are every bit as safe as their larger counterparts.

"These are not your grandfather's, or even your father's, regional airlines. Today we have one commercial airline industry, and the flight crews all meet the exact same standards," said Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association.

Some within aviation are concerned passengers will start to avoid smaller jets.

"The perception is out there, so the industry is going to have to address it," said Louis Smith, a retired Northwest Airlines pilot and president of FltOps.com, a consulting and market research firm.

Regional carriers let airlines cap their costs and also tailor plane size to the volume of passengers willing to pay full price, a helpful tool for planning in a tough economy or for service to a small city.

"Quite frankly, smaller aircraft make a lot more sense," said John Schalliol, executive director for South Bend Regional Airport, in northern Indiana. "We would have a few flights a day with the big planes. But with smaller ones, airlines could cater to the public's need with more flight times."

But airlines aren't just flying smaller jets to smaller cities. Chicago-based United Airlines last week ended its mainline service out of Miami, which once served as a hub for its Latin American routes, transferring all flying to its regional partners. Regional carriers operate more flights than do United's pilots: 1,900 to 1,200, daily.

"We work closely with all of our United Express flying partners to ensure they meet FAA and our own high standards," said United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy.

United expects to increase flying by its regional partners, under United Express, 9 percent to 10 percent this year even as the third-largest U.S. carrier slashes its mainline flying. It is not alone.

Feeder airlines are winning contracts to take over flying because they have significantly lower labor costs than major carriers. The largest carriers invest from two to five times as much in pilot pay, benefits and training than do regional airlines, according to data compiled by market research firm AirlineForecasts LLC.

"That's what this is all about: the labor arbitrage," said Vaughn Cordle, a retired airline pilot and chief executive of AirlineForecasts. "Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

There is no direct statistical correlation between pilot pay and safety, Cordle said. But pilots who have to work overtime to stay above the poverty line may be more susceptible to fatigue, a frequent culprit in aviation mishaps. There's also a concern that as regional carriers rapidly add new and larger planes to their fleet, they may not provide adequate training to pilots forced to adjust to different aircraft amid a time crunch, Goodrich said.

Fulks is one of the lucky ones, a pilot employed by a large, stable regional carrier, which he asked not to identify. He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

"A lot of the first officers I know are almost angry, and some are even jealous of their friends who went into other fields and made big money right out of college," Fulks said. "We're professionals who are responsible for so many lives day in and day out, yet we are so severely underpaid. ... I try not to think that way."

[email protected]

[email protected]

Copyright © 2009, Chicago Tribune

 

[i fly boxes]

DTW SYR should be a 50 seat route if its not profitable on the DC9. But it should be flown by mainline pilots. Come on Prater, Take it back!!

 

[flyboyike]

The public wants experience and they just might be choosing full size airplanes instead of your lawndarts...

The public wants a $95 ticket from cheaptickets.com, they don't seem to give a crap about much else.

 

[flyboyike]

I disagree, as do most of the professional pilots I know.

We now see what the outsourcing of RJ flying has done to the profession, and many pilots are doing what they can to hold the line, if not take BACK scope give-backs. (AirTran pilots voted down a T.A. that gave away major scope concessions including larger RJ's and virtually unlimited Q400 flying and want to close the loophole even more as we move forward).

We recognize that no-furlough clauses are USELESS.
We see what is happening at Midwest and will make sure language is written so that regional creep can't be misinterpreted as "code share".
We know the future will include smaller aircraft, and simply want to fly them at mainline wages.

You may see some poor examples of pilot groups that keep giving up the store (Delta's recent allowance of additional seats on some RJ's), but for the most part, half or more of the pilots at mainline airlines are ex-RJ pilots who had to LIVE through an extra 5, 7, or 10 years at a regional because of this and will fight HARD to keep it from further deteriorating.

Give it another 3-5 years as those junior pilots get more involved in their unions and even take the reigns from the older guys who "gave up the store" back in the 80's and 90's. Getting people in positions of power in unions and enough pilots in the general ranks to back them is the first, key step to REALLY taking things back.

The next step is getting people to have the STOMACH to fight the hard fight; because nothing short of a legal job action is going to TAKE BACK large gains in scope give-back.

How important is it to you? It's my #1 priority in any contract (and is many other people's as well), and I'm willing to burn the house down because the house won't hold together without Scope to begin with. We've seen it too many times, and I refuse to believe there's no taking control back of our lives.

I want desperately to believe you, but something tells me the mainline MEC's will once again take care of the top 5% of their own seniority list, everyone else be damned. Happened before, will happen again.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Lots of interesting reads at rjDEFENSE.com
This one from 2001
http://www.rjdefense.com/bsicsub.pdf

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Mainline pilots don't want to fly the lawndarts. They chose to scope them out. It was THEIR choice. They sold their soul to the devil 2 decades ago. They can't have their cake and eat it too. This is a different industry now. Things change in every industry over time. Industry evolves over time as well. The argument that all rj's should be flown at mainline is no longer valid. Those days are long gone.

Thank you, 1990.

It's 2009... the outlook is different, the mainline pilot groups are different. One airline, one list.

 

[waka]

Mainline pilots don't want to fly the lawndarts. They chose to scope them out. It was THEIR choice. They sold their soul to the devil 2 decades ago. They can't have their cake and eat it too. This is a different industry now. Things change in every industry over time. Industry evolves over time as well. The argument that all rj's should be flown at mainline is no longer valid. Those days are long gone.

I disagree, as do most of the professional pilots I know.

Disagree or not, professional pilots or not, the way SEVEN stated it is the history and it is exactly what happened.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The history of scope is what happened.... but that is crying over spilled milk.

I thinking getting ALL flying back to mainline is a bit of a pipedream. However with appropriate pressure and support from our regional counterparts, scope recovery most certainly is possible.

 

[waka]

The history of scope is what happened.... but that is crying over spilled milk.

I don't see it as crying over spilled milk. I see it as an opportunity to learn from the past.