YET MORE Mainline Flights Going to RJ's--Hope someone is TALLYING all these!

[trainer8]

I don't see it as crying over spilled milk. I see it as an opportunity to learn from the past.

Like putting toothpaste back into the tube with a spoon.

 

[michael707767]

Awesome. I hope the mainline pilots put that in their pipes and smoke it.
They brought on themselves.

I'm a mainline pilot and I agree. Collectively, we have brought this on ourselves.

 

[cldsfr79]

Those days long gone??? I think the public is waking up to the fact that EXPERIENCED pilots are leaving the industry because they are being forced out by management and the new winged RJ pilots. Did you see the latest Chicago Tribune? Yesterday shed new light on what is really going on. The public wants experience and they just might be choosing full size airplanes instead of your lawndarts...

You know what's funny about the public? They buy tickets to what ever airline is the cheapest. And although they may complain about the size of a "lawn dart" they will still get on it to save money.

The public may be now learning about the "inexperienced" pilots flying regional jets/props, but for a cheap ticket, they will do it. If regional planes were flown by mainline pilots making 100K+ a year, ticket prices would be through the roof. This would cause a reduction of people flying, the mainline would lose a bit of their feed from the lose of regional flying, and this would cause the mainline to shrink. When it comes down to it, it's all about $$$$.

 

[crj567]

Mainline pilots don't want to fly the lawndarts. They chose to scope them out. It was THEIR choice. They sold their soul to the devil 2 decades ago. They can't have their cake and eat it too. This is a different industry now. Things change in every industry over time. Industry evolves over time as well. The argument that all rj's should be flown at mainline is no longer valid. Those days are long gone.

Wasn't the DC-9 considered the first RJ? Even though the flying was not outsourced, were they not flown on a drastically lower B-scale? Where did that come from? Mainline allowed it, as they are allowing this..... Some things never really change.

As much of a farce as I think the RJDC was, I DO think that mainline MECs could have easily gotten all the RJ flying back under one roof back in those days (they held all the cards-before 9-11.) Too bad they got just as caught up in turf battles as the RJDC people did. Things would really be different now if all of us ever really played for the same team.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

As much of a farce as I think the RJDC was, I DO think that mainline MECs could have easily gotten all the RJ flying back under one roof back in those days (they held all the cards-before 9-11.) Too bad they got just as caught up in turf battles as the RJDC people did. Things would really be different now if all of us ever really played for the same team.

I agree... the key issue now is how to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube. There is a new movement that is really pushing for this- and it is growing.

 

[General Lee]

1hr ago---off the newswire ( www.syracuse.com ):


Northwest slashes seating, drops Syracuse-Detroit flight

Thursday, June 11, 2009 By Rick Moriarty
Staff writer

Northwest Airlines, which recently merged with Delta Air Lines, is reducing its service between Syracuse and Detroit.
Northwest's flight schedule shows the airline will eliminate one of its four daily flights from Hancock Airport to Detroit on Aug. 18 and further reduce seating capacity on the route by using small jets - 50-seat CRJ's - instead of the larger, 120-seat DC-9 on two of the three flights. Currently, it uses DC-9 planes on three of the flights and the CRJ on one of them.
The switch in jets and the reduction of one flight a day will shrink the carrier's seating capacity on the route almost in half, from 410 to 220, according to information provided on the airline's Web site.

CRJ's can come in a stretch version, which contains 90 seats. However, the airline's Web site provides seating charts that show the 50-seat version. And the CRJ has no first-class section.
Northwest officials did not return a call seeking comment Wednesday.
Northwest's flights to Detroit are important to Syracuse because travelers from here can make connections from Detroit to many destinations in the West and Northwest. It provides the only nonstop flights between Syracuse and Detroit.
"Any time we lose a flight, any time we lose capacity, it is not good news," said Kevin Schwab, director of air service development for the Metropolitan Development Association, an economic development organization. "It gives passengers fewer options and puts upward pressure on fares."
Schwab said the Detroit service also is important because travelers can catch flights to Asia from Detroit. Business travel to Asia has been rising significantly in recent years, he said.
Northwest recently merged with Delta, and its name is being changed to Delta.
Syracuse Mayor Matt Driscoll said Northwest is making similar flight and capacity reductions in other cities in response to a drop in travel caused by the worst recession in decades.
He said it was "quite possible" Hancock will see more service reductions as airlines look for ways to cut costs.
The number of people flying in and out of the city-owned airport fell 11.5 percent in the first three months of this year, compared with the same period last year. "
-----------------------------
Isn't it time ALPA dumped RJ carriers? Maybe they wouldn't lose mainline carriers if they represented their interests! There should be a RALPA completely separate from ALPA. Is everyone SO desensitized that the only attitude is "nothing can stop it, oh well?". Please tell me pilots can take time from their busy schedules to help fight this kind of thing...it affects EVERYONE. ALPA should be LEADING and ORGANIZING a national effort involving pilots from even smaller mainline unions.

Some of the DC9s are going to be parked, but some are also going to ATL to fly on routes that have been RJ routes, up against Airtran 717s. So, in reality, the DC9s are moving to routes with mainline competition, and leaving RJs to routes like DTW to SYR. Until we get a mainline plane that fits our needs in the 100 or so seat market (hopefully E190s someday), we will have to move the DC9s around. Thanks for being so melodramatic, you drama queen. Say hi to Harrison Ford for us.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I don't see it as crying over spilled milk. I see it as an opportunity to learn from the past.

I don't know about you, but I think we (as mainline pilots) should ONLY be in the Sonic Cruiser business. Forget the rest of it, leave it all to the regionals, EXCEPT the Sonic Cruiser stuff of course!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[RJLoser]

This may be spilled milk.....I think mainline guys would be surprised to know how many regional guys would want to give scope back. Keep the jobs there. They suck here. The job needs to be done on your side of the fence.

 

[bluefin]

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story
chicagotribune.com

Bigger role of small airlines raises safety concerns

Critics worry about long hours, but trade group touts safety

By Julie Johnsson and Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune reporters
June 10, 2009


Nick Fulks says he met the "bare minimum requirements" when, at age 23, with 1,020 hours of flight experience, he was hired to fly jets for a large commuter airline.

Make no mistake: Fulks loves to fly, and he is a serious student of everything aviation.

But the hours are abysmal and the pay is so low that Fulks, who had shared an apartment out of economic necessity, is moving back to his parents' house in Rogers Park two years into his career.

Struggles like his -- handling stress and fatigue and mastering a learning curve in the cockpit that plays out over years -- long have been a standard practice in the airline industry. It is aviation's equivalent to physicians training as a resident.

But as regional carriers become big business, some safety experts question whether pilot fatigue, training and salaries that demand overtime hours are eroding safety standards.

This sector exploded in size and importance this decade as cash-strapped airlines like United, American, Delta, Continental and US Airways shrank their regular operations and outsourced more flying to regional or feeder carriers. These contract partners operate planes, which hold between 10 and 100 passengers, emblazoned with the large carriers' logos.

Once the provider of short puddle-jump flights, regional carriers operate about half of all the commercial airline flights in the U.S. and carry about 20 percent of commercial airline passengers. During a four-year stretch following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the amount of flying they handled nearly tripled, according to data compiled for the Tribune by OAG, which tracks airline data.

Commuter airlines are required to meet the same federal safety and training standards as the major airlines. But a recent spate of accidents involving this sector has heightened concerns that rapid growth at some carriers may have jeopardized safeguards.

The February crash of a Colgan Air/Continental Connection plane that killed 50 people near Buffalo has focused attention on flight-training lapses and the financial pressures faced by pilots who are trying to make a living flying smaller planes. Many regional pilots commute cross country and spend nights in airport crew lounges to save money.

Some question whether the FAA, whose inspectors are stretched thin, has delegated sufficient resources to the sector. Like pilots at the airlines they oversee, inspectors handling regional carriers are the most junior at the agency, said Linda Goodrich, an FAA inspector and vice president of the Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, a union representing the inspectors.

But the trade group representing regional carriers insists they are every bit as safe as their larger counterparts.

"These are not your grandfather's, or even your father's, regional airlines. Today we have one commercial airline industry, and the flight crews all meet the exact same standards," said Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association.

Some within aviation are concerned passengers will start to avoid smaller jets.

"The perception is out there, so the industry is going to have to address it," said Louis Smith, a retired Northwest Airlines pilot and president of FltOps.com, a consulting and market research firm.

Regional carriers let airlines cap their costs and also tailor plane size to the volume of passengers willing to pay full price, a helpful tool for planning in a tough economy or for service to a small city.

"Quite frankly, smaller aircraft make a lot more sense," said John Schalliol, executive director for South Bend Regional Airport, in northern Indiana. "We would have a few flights a day with the big planes. But with smaller ones, airlines could cater to the public's need with more flight times."

But airlines aren't just flying smaller jets to smaller cities. Chicago-based United Airlines last week ended its mainline service out of Miami, which once served as a hub for its Latin American routes, transferring all flying to its regional partners. Regional carriers operate more flights than do United's pilots: 1,900 to 1,200, daily.

"We work closely with all of our United Express flying partners to ensure they meet FAA and our own high standards," said United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy.

United expects to increase flying by its regional partners, under United Express, 9 percent to 10 percent this year even as the third-largest U.S. carrier slashes its mainline flying. It is not alone.

Feeder airlines are winning contracts to take over flying because they have significantly lower labor costs than major carriers. The largest carriers invest from two to five times as much in pilot pay, benefits and training than do regional airlines, according to data compiled by market research firm AirlineForecasts LLC.

"That's what this is all about: the labor arbitrage," said Vaughn Cordle, a retired airline pilot and chief executive of AirlineForecasts. "Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

There is no direct statistical correlation between pilot pay and safety, Cordle said. But pilots who have to work overtime to stay above the poverty line may be more susceptible to fatigue, a frequent culprit in aviation mishaps. There's also a concern that as regional carriers rapidly add new and larger planes to their fleet, they may not provide adequate training to pilots forced to adjust to different aircraft amid a time crunch, Goodrich said.

Fulks is one of the lucky ones, a pilot employed by a large, stable regional carrier, which he asked not to identify. He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

"A lot of the first officers I know are almost angry, and some are even jealous of their friends who went into other fields and made big money right out of college," Fulks said. "We're professionals who are responsible for so many lives day in and day out, yet we are so severely underpaid. ... I try not to think that way."

[email protected]

[email protected]

Copyright © 2009, Chicago Tribune

Funny how this article doesn't mention anything about the thousands of pilots that have been furloughed because of this, the ones that have lost their homes and everything else. Poor Johnny has to move back in with his parents, yet Bob who has been in the industry for 15 yrs furloughed twice and now on the street with his family.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

This message is for CLDSFR79 and any other pilot who is incapable of doing math.

If regional planes were flown by mainline pilots making 100K+ a year, ticket prices would be through the roof. This would cause a reduction of people flying, the mainline would lose a bit of their feed from the lose of regional flying, and this would cause the mainline to shrink. When it comes down to it, it's all about $$$$.

Put down the Kool Aid. Despite what airline management has told you, pilot pay only accounts for a very small portion of the total cost of operating a flight.

For example, a Captain on a 50 seat RJ makes $65/hr and the F.O. makes $35/hr. On a full flight it is costs each passenger roughly $2.00/hr to pay the pilots ($4.00/hr half full). Now let's say we pay the Captain $100/hr and the F.O. $65/hr. It would cost each passenger roughly $3.30/hr on a full flight ($6.60/hr half full). That is a difference of $1.30-$2.60/hr per passenger to properly compensate the pilots. That is on a 50 seat RJ! There are regionals flying 76+ seat airplanes around. Are you really stupid enough to believe you shouldn't make a liveable wage?! A lot of folks spend more than that on Starbucks before the flight. I don't want to hear one more Uneducated, Company Lapdog get on here preaching about keeping Regional pilot pay down! The numbers don't lie.