WSJ article on looming flight/duty time changes

[Baze]

I agree. These new rules will benefit the ATA and screw pilots. There will be more furloughs. If not, you can bank on more stagnation, as airlines won't be hiring.

This looks like nothing more than window dressing by the FAA, while they help out the ATA. I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak the 30 in 7 rule like you mentioned.

If they are going to schedule me for 11 hours of flying, then they better give me a long layover at the hotel. Ten hours at the hotel won't cut it. Let's make it 14 hours at the hotel.

I dunno man.

Max 11 hours flight time....
Maybe double the needed reserves but cut the need for more than half of the lineholders. This could actually reduce staffing requirements. I hope they keep 30 in 7 as a limit. They will probably change that to 41 in 7.

Thoughts?

 

[densoo]

If they are going to schedule me for 11 hours of flying, then they better give me a long layover at the hotel. Ten hours at the hotel won't cut it. Let's make it 14 hours at the hotel.

If they are patterning the new reg on the British reg CAP 371 (which it sounds more and more like they are), then min scheduled rest at all times is 12 hours, or length of previous duty day, whichever is greater. During the conduct of the pairing, this rest may be reduced, but never less than 10 hours behind the hotel door.

17.2 The minimum rest period which must be provided before undertaking a flying duty
period shall be:
a) at least as long as the preceding duty period, or
b) 12 hours
whichever is the greater.
17.2.1 When away from base, in the case when the rest period earned by a crew member is 12 hours, and suitable accommodation is provided by the operator, then that rest period may be reduced by one hour. In such circumstances, if the travelling time between the aerodrome and the accommodation is more than 30 minutes each way then the rest period must be increased by the amount the total time spent travelling exceeds one hour. The room allocated to the crew member must be available for occupation for a minimum of 10 hours. This sub-paragraph does not apply to rest periods that exceed 12 hours.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I have no problem with that. I have always thought that fatigue is cumulative. I could easily power through an ATL-LAX round trip. I'll be very tired the next day, but I think overall I will be less tired two days later because I had another night in my own bed, got to be home to eat my normal food and have a chance for my normal workout.

I've always thought 30n7 is a good rule, but an 8 hour block day is subjective. A 9 hour block day doing a west coast round trip would be easy compared to a 7 hour block, 5 leg day in an MD-88.

I agree with that. Here are a few things to ponder.

1) We have stricter limits in our PWA than what they are proposing except a few things like flight time. I am sure they will be coming to us for some relief. That is instant leverage for us. Keep that in mind. They will wants something from us.
2) This 11 hr cap a day could make a lot of those trips to Europe two man crews. I for one would fight a change to how we do it now.

We will see what the end result is, but it these turn out to be a half step, and are blanket rest rules for domestic and international long haul we may see some issues pop up!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree. These new rules will benefit the ATA and screw pilots. There will be more furloughs. If not, you can bank on more stagnation, as airlines won't be hiring.

This looks like nothing more than window dressing by the FAA, while they help out the ATA. I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak the 30 in 7 rule like you mentioned.

If they are going to schedule me for 11 hours of flying, then they better give me a long layover at the hotel. Ten hours at the hotel won't cut it. Let's make it 14 hours at the hotel.

They may change the 30-7 but what you need to look out for is 100-30 or 300 in 3 or the 1000 per year. Those caps will get them more than 30-7. If they change one of the bigger ones you may see a need for less pilots. What changing 30-7 along with this will allow more efficient use of time at work, and the ability to still have a home life.

 

[densoo]

They may change the 30-7 but what you need to look out for is 100-30 or 300 in 3 or the 1000 per year. Those caps will get them more than 30-7. If they change one of the bigger ones you may see a need for less pilots. What changing 30-7 along with this will allow more efficient use of time at work, and the ability to still have a home life.

This, too, is likely to be based primarily on duty day rather than as it is now, primairly on block to block times.

22.1 The maximum duty hours [not flight hours] for flight crew, excepting helicopters, shall not exceed:
- 55 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when a rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays;
- 95 hours in any 14 consecutive days;
- and 190 hours in any 28 consecutive days.

23.4 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours
The maximum flying hours for flight crew will be 90 in any 28 consecutive days, and 800 in any period of 12 months.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

Rounded, this is about
8 hours of duty (not flight time) per day in 7 days,
7 hours of duty per day in 14 days
7 hours of duty per day in 28 days.

This is what may drive greater numbers on the pilot rolls. Right now, you put a reserve out on the neverending gobstopper trip, you will likely run up against this stop, vice a 30 in 7 stop. Six days of flying, allowing for only 55 hours of duty time, gives you about 9 hours per day of duty. Add show times, sit times, on call times (which count in this reg as duty) and probably will hit 55 hours of duty before you hit 30 hours of flying. That reserve has to go home and rest. And this rest isn't 24 hours from from duty anywhere in the world, anywhere on your circadium clock. It is:

20.2 A single day off shall include 2 local nights, and shall be of at least 34 hours duration.

There may be some efficiencies gained by being able to fly 9 hours, but many of the other restrictions I think will more than offset this.

And the above is basically for daytime trips. Once you get into night stuff it gets even more restrictive.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

This, too, is likely to be based primarily on duty day rather than as it is now, primairly on block to block times.Rounded, this is about
8 hours of duty (not flight time) per day in 7 days,
7 hours of duty per day in 14 days
7 hours of duty per day in 28 days.

This is what may drive greater numbers on the pilot rolls. Right now, you put a reserve out on the neverending gobstopper trip, you will likely run up against this stop, vice a 30 in 7 stop. Six days of flying, allowing for only 55 hours of duty time, gives you about 9 hours per day of duty. Add show times, sit times, on call times (which count in this reg as duty) and probably will hit 55 hours of duty before you hit 30 hours of flying. That reserve has to go home and rest. And this rest isn't 24 hours from from duty anywhere in the world, anywhere on your circadium clock. It is:There may be some efficiencies gained by being able to fly 9 hours, but many of the other restrictions I think will more than offset this.

And the above is basically for daytime trips. Once you get into night stuff it gets even more restrictive.

I dunno, I appreciate your logical and pragmatic assumptions but with airline stocks up today, I think the CEOs at the airlines are salivating about the future of pilot staffing as it is impacted by the FAA's NPRM.
They know something.

 

[Empennage]

It's a good thing age 65 passed. Whew, that pilot shortage was right around the corner.

 

[densoo]

I dunno, I appreciate your logical and pragmatic assumptions but with airline stocks up today, I think the CEOs at the airlines are salivating about the future of pilot staffing as it is impacted by the FAA's NPRM.
They know something.

Gotta agree on that. They're only happy if we're not.

 

[filejw]

Great a AMS turn from the east coast ...

 

[igneousy2]

"The proposal envisions a sliding scale of between seven and 11 scheduled"

Why do we get 1 (8-7=1) hour and they get 3 (11-8=3)hours? When I flew inter-island in Hawaii we did 8-10 legs a day and STILL didn't get close to 7 hours. I think each landing you make should be counted as some amount of hours say 1.0 and then count the flight time and then let them go to 11.