WSJ article on looming flight/duty time changes

[igneousy2]

As far as these regs go I feel a BOHICA moment coming and I would bet that in 2 years after these rules have been put in place we will look back and it would have had a minimal amount of improvement for safety with a bunch of guys at the ATA smiling all the way to the bank.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

So let me see if I got this straight. We have an accident (and a bunch of other incidents) due to fatigue yet we end up increasing the duty day to 11 scheduled per day.

I don’t know if this is intuitively obvious to many out there, but for most of us, this will reduce manning requirements (no third pilot/transcom turns).

Thanks ALPA!! Even when we win, we lose!! ATA has to be laughing.

AA767AV8TOR :bawling:

 

[Draginass]

It's starting to look obvious to me that the FAA is going right into the pocket of the ATA again. Got to hand it to the ATA, it looks like they're taking a tragedy, partly of their making, and are going to make a profit off of it.

Sliding scale, my butt. You watch. Less pilots. More workdays for commuters, and lots of furloughs at the majors.

And much less safety.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If we do 11 hours of flying in a 12 or 13 hour duty day, that is less than the current 16 hour day, especially when they lower the flight/duty for multiple legs and night/early morning starts.

Two legs, with 11 hours of flying, in a 13 hour day, is a LOT less tiring than being woken up at 0100, after one hour of sleep, and being on reserve for the past 96 hours, and being told you have a 16 hour duty day coming up, which gets extended by 5 hours of "Duty Break" so your days ends at 2100 the NEXT night, after being on duty for 21 hours (counting the duty break), but only 7 hours of flight time!!!

cliff
NBO

 

[Splert]

Transcon turns...

11 hours of flight time in 14 hours of duty seems like it will work on paper but out on the line if airlines attempt to run the airline this way it will cause havok. For instance I did a IAD 2 day and it was 10:09 of block with 12:09 of duty without the a turn time of included.

Throw in a marketing schedule, aircraft flow, holding for a gate, MX, weather and ATC delays and duty time starting at the hotel and ending at the hotel and how can transcon turns work 365 days a year for the next 30 years.

They can't it seems. Maybe a few days a years but the other days it will cause to many distrubtions to make it work.

Now maybe LAX - JFK - FLL is another story. But what about FLL - JFK - LAX proabably not.

Time will tell...

 

[General Lee]

This will be GREAT news for SWA pilots. They currently do 5 or 6 legs a day intra-Texas, and now they can do 8 or 9. Heck, just throw an EXTRA LBB turn and HOU turn from DAL. Or, instead of just doing FLL-TPA-MSY-HOU-ELP, they can then add PHX, LAS, and finally SMF to the day. Wow, that sounds FANTASTIC! Go team!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IBNAV8R]

No wonder ATA, RAA "fully support these efforts".

 

[densoo]

This will be GREAT news for SWA pilots. They currently do 5 or 6 legs a day intra-Texas, and now they can do 8 or 9. Heck, just throw an EXTRA LBB turn and HOU turn from DAL. Or, instead of just doing FLL-TPA-MSY-HOU-ELP, they can then add PHX, LAS, and finally SMF to the day. Wow, that sounds FANTASTIC! Go team! Bye Bye--General Lee

Look at the chart. The more legs, the lower the duty period.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

For a duty day that starts between 8a and 1p, limited to 1 leg in 14 hrs, 2 legs in 13 1/4 hrs, 5 legs in 11 hrs, etc. It might be hard to get 8 legs into a 9 1/2 duty day with show time and turn time included. I guess they could try.

Once you move out of the 8a to 1p start time, the duty day goes down even further, making it even more difficult to squeeze in that many legs.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I was also going to tell the General, that he must have been doing something other than web-boarding...it has been all over the place that more TOs and Ls, along with late night/early morning start times will reduce both the hours of flying allowed, as well as the duty day.

My only criticism is that they are taking too long implementing this stuff, which is one of the reasons I am sending a report to various elected officials: If Congress wants these changes done quicker, they will be.

cliff
NBO

 

[jmreii]

It's starting to look obvious to me that the FAA is going right into the pocket of the ATA again. Got to hand it to the ATA, it looks like they're taking a tragedy, partly of their making, and are going to make a profit off of it.

Sliding scale, my butt. You watch. Less pilots. More workdays for commuters, and lots of furloughs at the majors.

And much less safety.

When was the last time you seen a business allowing their peasants, pardon me, I meant their employees, win in anything including keeping their jobs. Employees will win as long as they do not interfere with the powers that be ability to generate astronomical amounts of wealth.

 

[whymeworry?]

This is what happens when you forget what flying the line is like. Clearly Babbitt stopped flying years ago. He only has 14,000 hrs. IN a 35+ year career, that shows he spent a lot of time out of the cockpit.

As far as ALPA, what did y'all expect? Old-timers running ALPA are salavating, this will just increase the productivity for the most senior pilots. Screw the junior ones. Why should they have a say in anything? Staffing? What is that? Fatigue? Huh? Is that even a factor these days? THIS IS GREAT!uke:

 

[OurMoney1]

I've said it on this board before and I will say it again. The last person you want scheduling your productivity is a suit from Washington.

I can't imagine a more damaging scenario to our careers than letting these idiots take control of our daily flight schedules. I dont trust Washington to protect the pilot, all this equates to is a group of individuals caving to the ATA with lots a window dressing.

 

[whymeworry?]

The other problem with this is sometimes we're our own worst enemies. Sure a transcon sounds like a productive idea to the average line puke. But they are fantasizing. On a blue sky CAVOK day it may work, now throw in poor sleep the night before, MEL issues that added to your workload all and bad wx on the back end of the trip. Now you're suddenly making poor decisions cause you're... yep FATIGUED! Isn't that why we're re-writing the rules in the first place?

Another accident waiting to happen.

 

[Flopgut]

"It takes a Pilot"

Quite the cover shot for ALPA magazine this issue? Captains Babbitt and Prater. Something worth pointing out: Both fought Lorenzo early in their careers. Compare the kind of aid ALPA National was to both of them then to how they are now helping members who are in their early years of career. Both had strike pay available to them. Funded by assessments ALPA National directed the entire membership to pay. (huge sums in fact, largely covered by senior captains paychecks) When adversity presents itself again late in John's career, what does he do? He assesses the membership again via a retirement age change!! He's the senior captain now but he doesn't intend to tow the line like the senior captains did for him. No, he makes sure the fiscal burden of the rule change get's picked up by the junior pilots! Now the next monumental issue presents itself in flight/duty time changes. If these two can't manage this to be a good thing for all pilots, and only benefit the senior, we better make sure they hear from us.

 

[Turtle21]

Yeah, if ALPA is involved you can be sure it will increase incoming dues and it will further separate the haves and haves not, senior vs. junior, majors vs. express.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm less sure about Babbitt, but Prater walked out on a better deal than most legacy furloughs can expect out of this job if/when they come back. Unbelievable as it is, Lorenzo treated Prater better than he treats junior members.

 

[densoo]

From Cleveland Ohio Business News

"Instead of 16 hours' duty time, with eight hours off for rest and sleep, the airlines propose that maximum duty time range between nine and 13 hours. The exact amount -- detailed in a table attached to the airlines' letter to the FAA -- would depend on how many legs pilots fly in a shift and the time of day they start work.

At the same time, the airlines want to increase the maximum number of flight hours that pilots are allowed at the controls of the plane - it's now eight. Maximums instead would range from seven to 11 hours per shift, depending on legs flown and start times.

Pilot Russ Leighton, who flew for Airborne Express in Wilmington, Ohio, sat on the rule-making committee that met at the FAA's offices in Washington and a nearby hotel.

"None of the 20 people there thought that a pilot should be on duty for 16 hours a day," he said.

But Leighton said there was disagreement about allowing longer flight hours.

"We didn't think the reason we were there was to increase the pilots' workload," he said. "That seems counterproductive to limiting fatigue.""

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/09/airlines_want_to_shorten_pilot.html

This is a lot like the Table 13.3 in the CAP 371 regulation. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

 

[densoo]

Geez. Read the letter ATA letter to FAA regarding fatigue rules. While their recommendation concurs the CAP 371 reg, even mentioning it by name, and they have charts for duty day limits (vice flight hour limits), they caved on the rest issue. 10 hours block to block, waivable to 9 hours. That's no different than we have now nearly!! CAP 371 reg requires min of 12 hours scheduled, no less than 10 hours behind the door on the waive.