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stillaboo

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2003
Posts
443
Posted by a Freedom pilot on the Mesa forum:

"Having jumped seated quite a bit over the last year, I
can tell you that execpt for 1.) all of America West and 2.) a
couple of US Air guys; nobody gives a crap about freedom, one way or
the other. Southwest guys, as always, are the coolest guys to
jumpseat on and don't give a sh**t about internal strife a
comparitively podunk airline like Mesa.

Bottom line -- I guess I won't be working at America West anytime
soon, but who the heck would want to? So I can't jumpseat on Cactus
either - but that works both ways, no? (bet I'll be able to when I
get my Mesa badge back though) I relish the thought of denying
jumpseats to those boobs. Really makes my day."
--------

And to think, some guys think Freedom was just a made-up problem so that Mesa could purposefully have an excuse for a poor contract (Machdog1?).

-Boo!
 
Err

In response to generaltso-
Just wanted to prove the fact that I might appear/sound young - but that I have ultimate respect for anyone who wants to work hard to support their family and who respect their job! Seems a lot of people (like that guy) give off the wrong impression that us young guys who are new in the business don't care two freakin cents about the pilot profession or pilot community. But they are DEAD WRONG.
 
Re: Err

LXApilot said:
In response to generaltso-
Just wanted to prove the fact that I might appear/sound young - but that I have ultimate respect for anyone who wants to work hard to support their family and who respect their job! Seems a lot of people (like that guy) give off the wrong impression that us young guys who are new in the business don't care two freakin cents about the pilot profession or pilot community. But they are DEAD WRONG.


Uhhh...
Yeah and take that......... :eek:
 
LXApilot said:
Freedom was established for 1 reason- as a vehicle for managements ineptitude to bite the hands that feed them just one more time - to provide the management with an alter-ego carrier that would be the ultimate slap in the face to the Mesa pilot group.

First, congratulations. While you may get criticism because you're relatively "young and inexperienced", don't let it rattle you. At least you're thinking, participating and making yourself aware of relevant events in the industry you've chosen for your future. I respect you for that.

As for your "youth" that's a plus, not a negative. The future belongs to the young, not the has been's like myself. With respect to the "experience", someone once said: "Experience is the exchange of the errors of youth for those of age." You'll get the experience just as all the rest of us did. Hopefully it will make you wiser and not just more prolific.

Take a look at what you wrote above and consider this.

Why did Freedom really come into existence? Was it really a means to slap the Mesa pilots in the face or dilute their bargaining power? It may look that way on the surface but in my opinion that was a contributing factor and not the primary reason for the creation of Freedom.

In my opinion, Freedom was created as a direct result of highly questionable bargaing policies established by The Air Line Pilots Association and the USAirways MEC. Had ALPA acted differently, there would have been no need for Freedom to be created as yet another subsidiary of Mesa Air Group.

Likewise, were it not for additional policies of the ALPA and the USAirways MEC, there would have been no need for the parent company of Chautauqua to create the alter ego airline called Republic and it is highly probable that it never would have come into existence.

In the case of Freedom the culprit that initiated its creation was the Scope Clause in the USAirways PWA. That scope clause was negotiated and promoted by ALPA. What did it do? It pretended to prevent Mesa Air Group from entering into an agreement, not with USAirways or USAir Group, but with a third and unrelated party, in this case America West, to operate aircraft with more than 50 seats in a code share agreement. Mesa wanted to do business with America West. America West wanted Mesa to operate 70-seat and 90-seat regional jets under a code share agreement that did NOT violate the terms of the America West PWA. However, if Mesa did so, it would run the risk of losing its contract with USAirways because the USAirways Scope Clause did not permit Mesa to operate aircraft with more than 50-seats, even if they had nothing at all to do with USAirGroup.

Rather that fight this rediculous restriction in court, Mesa Air Group simply elected to create a new subsidiary, independent of Mesa, to contract with America West, i.e., Freedom. Did it work? YES, it did.

Like it or not, the fact is that Freedom was created to circumvent and unreasonable scope clause, created by ALPA, to prevent Mesa from subcontracting with a totally separate air carrier from the one in whose contract the scope clause appeared.

Once created, Freedom offered every Mesa pilot the opportunity to move to Freedom. Granted, Freedom was non-union, had no PWA and offered a compensation and benefits package that was far from "good".

ALPA chose to fight the monster of its own creation by means that resulted in the Mesa pilots paying the price of the USAirways pilots unreasonable actions, which latter were fully sanctioned and endorsed by the ALPA. While the Mesa pilots were busy paying the price, ALPA was negoting at America West to prevent the operation of these same aircraft. These negotiations did not begin as a result of Freedom, they began before Freedom existed and the demands were consistent with ALPA's policy of preventing regional airlines from operating 70 and 90-seat RJs.

If the Mesa pilots had elected to populate Freedom, the fact is it would have been relatively easy for the ALPA to obtain a single carrier ruling from the NMB, thus forcing Freedom pilots to be represented by the ALPA. Since Freedom pilots would really have been transferred Mesa pilots (already in the ALPA), there is no doubt whatever that ALPA would have become the bargaining agent. Such action would have completely negated the ability of MESAG's CEO to use Freedom against the Mesa pilots in contract negotiations. Yes, it would have taken longer but today the MESAG pilots (which now include Freedom) just might have a decent PWA. Instead, they were sacrificed on the altar of flawed ALPA policy intended to favor major airline pilots.

Was this a blunder or an oversight on the part of ALPA? Go ahead and belive what you want to, but I believe it was not. It was both intentional and deliberate. ALPA chose the strategy that it did in an effort to prevent the proliferation of 70-seat RJs and the introduction of 90-seat RJs at any regional airline. Making the Mesa pilots pay the price of this flawed policy was of no concern.

Well ALPA succeeded and failed at the same time. It suceeded in making the Mesa pilots pay the price, along with every other regional pilot represented (joke) by ALPA as well as those that are not. Just look at the concessions that have been negotiated at ARW, ACA, SKYW (and those that will follow) as a result of the grossly inferior Mesa PWA. ALPA failed miserably at preventing the use of the 70-seat and 90-seat RJs. They are flying at Mesa Air Group. They are flying for America West and in the future, they will fly elsewhere as well.

Although ALPA created its very own alter ego at USAir Group (Mid Atlantic) it has accomplished nothing other than further injury to regional pilots. PSA has lost its 70-seaters to, of all people, MESA. Piedmont and Allegheny are being punished and have no RJs. USAirways pilots have agreed to fly for Eagle compensation, among the worst in the regional ranks. Air Wisconsin pilots have gutted their contract (formerly the best) and have yet to get anything in exchange, ACA pilots have taken significant concessions, but have no new UAL agreement, SKYW pilots have agreed to fly 70 and up to 99-seat jets for the same rates as 50-seat jets. ASA bargaining has been undermined. COEX bargaining has been undermined. Comair will soon be under pressure to make concessions as well.

All this to supposedly protect the intersts of USAirways pilots who are furloughed in droves and have gained nothing worth having.

Enter Jets for Jobs. ALG, PDT and PSA were coerced into abrogating their seniority in favor of USAIrways furloughed pilots. TSA has been forced to agree. Mesa has been forced to agree. Chautauqua pilots refused to give up their seniority. What was the result? Republic was created. Why? To circumvent the CHQ pilots defense of their seniority and accomodate USAirways pilots. They too have been forced to accept Jets for Jobs and guess what, Republic is still there.

ALL of the above is the direct and indirect result of misguided ALPA policy and the willingness to sacrifice regional pilots in the interest of major pilots.

Copying ALPA, the American pilot's union (APA) has negotiated away the 70-seat jobs of Eagle pilots and will soon be violating their seniority. ALPA, which ostensibly represents Eagle, is encouraging them to accept the APA theft and doing nothing of consequence to defend the Eagle pilots while consorting with the APA and encouraging it to merge with ALPA.

So, was Freedom created for "just 1 reason"? Was it the reason that you listed above? You're entitled to your point of view but you ought to know that there a lot of pilots like me with a very different opinion. Sooner or later you'll have to think this through for yourself.

I wish you luck in sifting through the morass.
 
Few days back I am riding on DAL as a revenue passenger from JAX-ATL, showed up a few hours early so I could hang out with another pilot friend and watch the birds fly out of town over a nice cold one...

Guess you meant root beer. Way to go.
 
By the way, can someone explain how to quote properly, that was a LOT of typing to make a stupid point. I can't seem to get CNTRL-X to cut, or CNTRL-V to paste no matter what.
 
labbats said:
By the way, can someone explain how to quote properly, that was a LOT of typing to make a stupid point. I can't seem to get CNTRL-X to cut, or CNTRL-V to paste no matter what.

No we can't show you that. There is already way too much quoting going on around here. Sorry.... !



PS - Instead of hitting "post reply", hit "quote" at the bottom of the post you want to quote.
 
Last edited:
Ah ha! thanks.
 
Is it me or based on Surplus1's post (a post I've seen in various formats 100 times on the board), isn't ALPA getting throttled like Nebraska always beats up on some wimp 1-AA team every September? About a 73-0 score or so with the 4th quarter still to go?

I've never seen an industry where pay cuts are expected by the employees while management probably receives a typical annual raise and standard compensation package, i.e. bonus, stock options.


Mr. I.
 
Check out the Bonanza flyin under the Eiffel Tower!

http://www.airspacemag.com/asm/web/site/QT/eiffel.html

Check out the other videos on the site...
The same site has some really wacky videos, like a F-104 being shot out of a barn with rockets. :eek:

Some cool footage of the pogo stick as well.
 

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