WOW - Should have become an ALPA-officer

[Boeingman]

More anti union rhetoric with no substance...

Also, with the road the GM and Ford are on.... the UAW members are going to be worse off than us....

I'm sure that GM and Ford problems are really cuased by the UAW. It is the unions fault.....

My mistake for even engaging the comparison.... UAW to ALPA members... Apples to oranges...

No substance? What planet have you been on for the last few years? Your common mantra of anti union yadda yadda yadda does not change the fact ALPA has done an abysmal job of late. The facts speak for themself.

What's the matter your comparison bite you in the ass with reality?

And where did I say their problems were caused by the UAW? Take a pill and relax.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No substance? What planet have you been on for the last few years? Your common mantra of anti union yadda yadda yadda does not change the fact ALPA has done an abysmal job of late. The facts speak for themself.

What's the matter your comparison bite you in the ass with reality?

And where did I say their problems were caused by the UAW? Take a pill and relax.

Read a book and learn.

 

[Boeingman]

Read a book and learn.

I'm sorry Rez, but I have the ability to see what is going on around me with the industry without reading a book.

Why don't you take your blinders and ALPA knee pads off and take a real hard look at what your dues buys these days.

Truth hurts doesn't it?

 

[PCL_128]

Your common mantra of anti union yadda yadda yadda does not change the fact ALPA has done an abysmal job of late.

As is typical of ALPA bashers, you state that the Association has done an "abysmal" job, yet you don't offer any solutions as to how they could do a better job. Yelling "Woerth is paid too much" and "ALPA sucks" doesn't help anything. Perhaps a cogent conversation on real solutions would be more helpful instead of the continuous ALPA hatred.

P.S. Captain Woerth and the rest of the Officers listed on that website do a job that very few pilots are capable of. They are worth every penny and then some. If you think differently, then run for office or submit a resolution at your next Local Council meeting to cut CA Woerth's salary.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm sorry Rez, but I have the ability to see what is going on around me with the industry without reading a book.

Why don't you take your blinders and ALPA knee pads off and take a real hard look at what your dues buys these days.

Truth hurts doesn't it?

ALPA has problems.... I certianly agree..... I choose to pragmatically address the issues to discuss them with the intent to correct. You are so lost you are just shooting aimlessly in the dark....

I just choose to look in the mirror before I critize others.... I know it is easier for you to do the opposite, which is obvious by your personal attacks, which means you don't really have any good ammo...just mindless hate.

Hater.

 

[Boeingman]

As is typical of ALPA bashers, you state that the Association has done an "abysmal" job, yet you don't offer any solutions as to how they could do a better job. Yelling "Woerth is paid too much" and "ALPA sucks" doesn't help anything. Perhaps a cogent conversation on real solutions would be more helpful instead of the continuous ALPA hatred.

P.S. Captain Woerth and the rest of the Officers listed on that website do a job that very few pilots are capable of. They are worth every penny and then some. If you think differently, then run for office or submit a resolution at your next Local Council meeting to cut CA Woerth's salary.

Lookie lookie here. The PFT king giving out another lecture.

I love how the ALPA apologists come out with their tired mantra again and again. If your ALPA gods were doing such a fine job, they wouldn't need people like you soliciting suggestions from the membership.

Your solution to the gross pay of National ALPA gets lost with typical ALPA politics. It sounds nice, but in reality isn't worth the price of your PFT training. But I digress to such an expert like yourself in the industry here.

Also, you are mistaking my so called "hatred" for disgust.

 

[Boeingman]

ALPA has problems.... I certianly agree..... I choose to pragmatically address the issues to discuss them with the intent to correct. You are so lost you are just shooting aimlessly in the dark....

I just choose to look in the mirror before I critize others.... I know it is easier for you to do the opposite, which is obvious by your personal attacks, which means you don't really have any good ammo...just mindless hate.

Hater.

Apologist:

You don't address issues you, only chastize when others don't blindy follow your ALPA gods in Herndon. I don't need ammo Rez, the ammo can is full with events over the last few years. ALPA has failed miserbly on all counts.

Hey it's your money sport. If you think ALPA is doing such a bang up job, more power to you.

I hope you like your reflection.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Apologist:

You don't address issues you, only chastize when others don't blindy follow your ALPA gods in Herndon. I don't need ammo Rez, the ammo can is full with events over the last few years. ALPA has failed miserbly on all counts.

Hey it's your money sport. If you think ALPA is doing such a bang up job, more power to you.

I hope you like your reflection.

Nope, I challenge others to become informed, engaged and pragmatic members. My message is true but sometimes my delivery is poor.

I suspect you were and are no longer a member..

You on the other hand, are so disapointed with misaligned expectations with no ability to understand how you even got where you are.... Thus, all you got is hate.

Your are a hate group recruiters target profile. Uniformed, uneducated, no prospects, loss of income and full of self pity....

Hater.

 

[Boeingman]

Nope, I challenge others to become informed, engaged and pragmatic members. My message is true but sometimes my delivery is poor.

I suspect you were and are no longer a member..

You on the other hand, are so disapointed with misaligned expectations with no ability to understand how you even got where you are.... Thus, all you got is hate.

Your are a hate group recruiters target profile. Uniformed, uneducated, no prospects, loss of income and full of self pity....

Hater.

Apologist:

Let's see how wrong you are:

Informed: I attend all council meetings if humanly possible. I read any and all information sent ot me by the LEC, MEC and National.

Engaged: Earned a star for my ALPA pin. Have walked on others picket lines. Attended other labor events when possible

Pragmatic: I think I could classify myself as pragmatic. I am very concerned with events and facts surrounding the union today and how ALPA has failed to learn lessons from the past.

I am and always have been a MIGS (almost 30 years). I know that burst your bubble didn't it?

Now on to your assumption of my hate. Like I told the other douchebag, you are mistaking my complete disgust with ALPA and it's current officers, policies and approach to the membership with "hate". Of course for apologists like yourself, it is easy to just slap a hate label on to make yourself feel better when someone else is pointing out glaring defeciencies in the union.

Misaligned expectations? Sure Rez, whatever you say. Things are humming along smoothly and ALPA and it's leaders have done such a great job.

As for the rest of your innuendos they are also full of sheet as well.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well at least we are making progress.....

What do you suggest be done to improve our situation? To address your issues of "disgust?"

 

[Boeingman]

Well at least we are making progress.....

What do you suggest be done to improve our situation?

Wholesale replacement i.e. housecleaning of the entire ALPA national leadership. They are ineffectual.

Their salaries, like it or not, have to come down. You can not have the backing and faith of your membership when your elected officials are making grossly disproportionate salaries. Also, their income puts these guys out of touch with the membership.

It is time, some how some way for an sos. The rape of the pensions and use of bankruptcy laws to abrogate contracts will continue until the union starts acting like a real union. I do not believe all of our high powered high priced attorneys can not find a loophole

Until we all start backing each other with real actions, not just lip service, this crap will continue.

ALPA has failed miserably in educating the public about the role of the airline pilot and our contributions to the economy.

Off the top of my head this is a good start, but I'm sure you'll rip it to shreds.

Now I am off to fly my own airplane, have some fun and clear my head of this crap.



Cya

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wholesale replacement i.e. housecleaning of the entire ALPA national leadership. They are ineffectual.

Their salaries, like it or not, have to come down. You can not have the backing and faith of your membership when your elected officials are making grossly disproportionate salaries. Also, their income puts these guys out of touch with the membership.

It is time, some how some way for an sos. The rape of the pensions and use of bankruptcy laws to abrogate contracts will continue until the union starts acting like a real union. I do not believe all of our high powered high priced attorneys can not find a loophole

Until we all start backing each other with real actions, not just lip service, this crap will continue.

ALPA has failed miserably in educating the public about the role of the airline pilot and our contributions to the economy.

Off the top of my head this is a good start, but I'm sure you'll rip it to shreds.



Cya

First, it is refreshing not to see a personal attack....

You have proposed the WHATS, now I will suggest the HOWS!

How do you suggest we clean house of the entire ALPA National leadership? Recall? Next elections? Given the industry is in the worst shape ever, what is ALPA national not doing that it should be, and therefore, ineffecual? Finally, if you are calling for ALPA Nat'l leadership to be removed who do you have to replace them? You cannot create a power vacuum otherwise the replacements could be worse than the staus quo.

Do you want a ALPA National leadership cleaning AND a reduction of salaries? Obviously, you want better leadership...do you expect better leadership to function with less compensation? Would you accept a job knowing the last guy did it for more pay? And you were expected to do a better job? HOW do you suggest we reduce the salaries? Volunteerism? Committee?

An SOS? This is not France. The Airline Indursty is deemed vital to our economy. Therefore the RLA and NMB are set up so that a SOS is impossible or very difficult. Is this ALPA's fault? If you really want a SOS it would take years to change the RLA legislation.. and our pro managment culture and anti labor administration would block any shot we got better than Shaq. Nonetheless, HOW would you set up an SOS?

The ability for us to back each other up comes from our ability during the good times to say... Look at UAL and their contract2000! We at DAL are better than those guys so we need a better contract than them! Even in the good times we do, in a way, throw each other under the bus. We can't have a system constantly works in our favor as the conditions change. This isn't a Walgreens commercial. Nonetheless, HOW do you suggest we back each other up?

You know, some pilot group needs to fall on thier sword to defend this profession and make a stand.... The question is...who? Who is going to chance thier mortgage for the rest of us...?

ALPA has failed misrably in its education. I agree 100%. But did you rely on your training department 100% for your upgrade or did you take it upon yourself to demand a higher standard?

There are too many guys out there that need an elementry level of education on the politics of being an Air Line Pilot.... Is it too much to suggest they do so themselves??

When we planned on becomming an Air Line Pilot we thought of the great equipment we wanted to operate and the great rewards. (pay and days off, etc..) No one ever said, I am going to be an effective pilot in the political arena. Yet, to get those days off and pay we have got to play politics. It is the only way.

 

[ultrarunner]

An SOS? This is not France. The Airline Indursty is deemed vital to our economy. Therefore the RLA and NMB are set up so that a SOS is impossible or very difficult.

I would argue that if ALPA pilots were serious about taking a stand, the members would find a way to alert each other of an SOS national walk out. If they don't, they will soon be working for nearly nothing, and that is fact.

What's the government going to do, take 20,000 pilots to court. I don't think so. If the pilots at Delta, United, NWA and any of the RJ outfits that are also getting rapped, would band together and WALK OUT, Bush would on his knees begging for a return to work. He would. The pilots would be in control. And the solution for the return to work is really quite simply....

Return the money you stole from our pensions and few other issues, and we'll be back to work in short order.

It's sad that you really don't have any idea of the power you would actually have to get something done. I wouldn't spend one more second in court.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I would argue that if ALPA pilots were serious about taking a stand, the members would find a way to alert each other of an SOS national walk out. If they don't, they will soon be working for nearly nothing, and that is fact.

What's the government going to do, take 20,000 pilots to court. I don't think so. If the pilots at Delta, United, NWA and any of the RJ outfits that are also getting rapped, would band together and WALK OUT, Bush would on his knees begging for a return to work. He would. The pilots would be in control. And the solution for the return to work is really quite simply....

Return the money you stole from our pensions and few other issues, and we'll be back to work in short order.

It's sad that you really don't have any idea of the power you would actually have to get something done. I wouldn't spend one more second in court.

Sounds good.........HOW!

It is easy to say, we need rid ourselves of our dependency on oil.... We need a new source of energy. OK...sounds good... HOW!!

Also, it sounds good that you say "return the stolen money form our pensions" but if you say that to management or the gov't they will shut you out. Becuase it wasn't stolen..... It was agreed upon by the pilots in concessionary negotiations. Don't get me wrong that I think the pension issue is ok.... it stinks big time....

Also, those pensions are underfunded... How do you MAKE mamagement fund those pensions properly?

If 20,000+ pilots walk out... sure you will get attention, but once the dust settles are you prepared for the political backlash from a country that is pro business and anti labor. From an Admin that is anti labor?

Copr America could return fire with legislation so restrictive. And these guys have the deep pockets to get new rules quick.... Man that is just scary...

 

[ultrarunner]

Sounds good.........HOW!

WALK.

The government bailed out some outfit in Detroit that makes $hitty cars. That outfit and it's employess are about the size of nat on an A$$ as far as the difference it would have made had the government just let them fail.

Heavily unionized outfit too, right?

If the government wanted these 4 or 5 airlines to keep flying, they'd suck it up and find the money. There's plenty of it!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

No substance? What planet have you been on for the last few years? Your common mantra of anti union yadda yadda yadda does not change the fact ALPA has done an abysmal job of late. The facts speak for

OK....what facts? Tells us. Also the "abysmal job of late" was it really ALPA or did it start with your elected LEC/MEC reps? Remember, you can always recall them starting with the next LEC meeting...

"Git after 'em, boy"

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

WALK.!

Ok...do it. Before your next trip, call your supervisor and tell him you are walking.....

Perhaps you want your stand to be effective. Would you like more pilots to join you.... some organization? Maybe a press release?

Address the HOW! not the what.

.. Besides if it was such a great idea... do you think it would've happened?

 

[ultrarunner]

Go back through the history of National Strikes. They have been very effective when the workfoce acts as one. Today's unionized pilots (ALPA) are anything but that, which is why they will fail. But you guys love working the legal system. So pretty soon I'll expect a call from my buddy in ATL telling me how he's given for the third time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Go back through the history of National Strikes. They have been very effective when the workfoce acts as one. Today's unionized pilots (ALPA) are anything but that, which is why they will fail. But you guys love working the legal system. So pretty soon I'll expect a call from my buddy in ATL telling me how he's given for the third time.

This is not HOW..... How do you suggest pilots conduct a legal walk out? Heck, how do you suggest they conduct an illegal walk out?

National strikes? Not sure what you mean? Do you have a reference? Maybe a link? Airline pilots have never had the ability to conduct a legal nation wide walk out.

Today's unionized pilots have operated under the same rules and CFR as all ALPA pilots, so I don't know what you mean by "todays".

The legal and legislative system is where ALPA has always operated. It is thier "airspace" What are you trying to say?

 

[Boeingman]

First, it is refreshing not to see a personal attack....

Look in the mirror. Has it ever occurred to you that your snide comments, albeit not directly are obvious attacks on ones character? For example, your summations that I am a "hater" of ALPA when I tell you time and again my answers are based on disgust? Personally, I don’t care either way but you know this is the pot calling the kettle black scenario.

You have proposed the WHATS, now I will suggest the HOWS!

Isn’t this what our overpaid ALPA national leadership supposed to be doing? With those bloated salaries they shouldn’t be relying on some putzs on a forum to make their job easier. I have stated before though that those high priced ALPA lawyers need to be doing a better job of finding loopholes. I also feel their needs to be aggressive and vicious defenses and campaigns against the continuing degradation of our cba’s. The hob knobbing and poly anna approach this labor organization has elected to pursue does not work.

Until all airline pilots realize that we are not white collar and ALPA is nothing but a trade organization nothing will change. Until we start to act like a real labor organization instead of a bunch pseudo management wanna be, these attacks on our careers will continue.

How do you suggest we clean house of the entire ALPA National leadership? Recall? Next elections? Given the industry is in the worst shape ever, what is ALPA national not doing that it should be, and therefore, ineffectual? Finally, if you are calling for ALPA Nat'l leadership to be removed who do you have to replace them? You cannot create a power vacuum otherwise the replacements could be worse than the status quo.

I think they should be recalled. Period. They have been ineffective and show no signs of change or action to correct their abysmal record. They have completely lost touch with the line pilots they are grossly overpaid to represent. They also do not seem to listen to their constituents. My impression is this has become an organization of nothing but lip service and these guys will do anything to protect their precious union job and paychecks.

Look at the alternative for them. Their penalty of failure is having to return to their respective carriers at a huge loss in salary and benefits.

Duh about the power vacuum. I am sure there are many, many people out there with fresh ideas and motivation to set the course we need. I confident that when these guys go, either by force or resignation, we will have people step up to the plate.

Do you want a ALPA National leadership cleaning AND a reduction of salaries? Obviously, you want better leadership...do you expect better leadership to function with less compensation? Would you accept a job knowing the last guy did it for more pay? And you were expected to do a better job? HOW do you suggest we reduce the salaries? Volunteerism? Committee?

You don’t get it do you? I want people in their that want the job for the job, not for what it is going to pay. I don’t want ass kissers that will say anything and do nothing to avoid working for their decimated contract at their repsective airline. I do not subscribe to the theory, especially with a union, that it takes more money to get better leadership. That is pure bull in my opinion.
If somebody accepts the job for less pay I say I would follow that guy to the gates of hell because he wants the job. Especially after seeing what a mess this, our, your beloved union has become.

An SOS? This is not France. The Airline Industry is deemed vital to our economy. Therefore the RLA and NMB are set up so that a SOS is impossible or very difficult. Is this ALPA's fault? If you really want a SOS it would take years to change the RLA legislation.. and our pro management culture and anti labor administration would block any shot we got better than Shaq. Nonetheless, HOW would you set up an SOS?

Your dang right the industry is vital to the economy. Trouble is, noone outside of our world respects that fact because of the way we allowed ourselves to be decimated. Why is that? Abysmal leadership that are only interested in protecting their ass and salary in Herndon vs. True, gritty labor leaders. ALPA is so afraid of being the blue collar union we really ought to be. The facts and history speak for themself.

It is ALPA’s fault they have done NOTHING to even carry out a threat or even start the process. Only fools believe the current course ALPA has taken over the years has been effectual. Like I told you before, this is a question for the high priced attorneys to work out. I have said for years the RLA is a travesty and gives management far to much power. Why has there been little if any effort to change it?

The ability for us to back each other up comes from our ability during the good times to say... Look at UAL and their contract2000! We at DAL are better than those guys so we need a better contract than them! Even in the good times we do, in a way, throw each other under the bus. We can't have a system constantly works in our favor as the conditions change. This isn't a Walgreens commercial. Nonetheless, HOW do you suggest we back each other up?

How about educating the membership into a pride of being an airline pilot? That pride is instilled from a wage that is commensurate with your abilities? That pride like in the military is support for your brothers. If NWA walks, We all walk. Never going to happen because of the complete apathy that has permeated within all of us as pilots. I say to you sir this apathy starts at the top.

You know, some pilot group needs to fall on their sword to defend this profession and make a stand.... The question is...who? Who is going to chance their mortgage for the rest of us...?

We did in 83. It is comical listening to others now that were so rabid about CAL in 83 to do this have now caved like kindergartners when their own contracts are under pressure.

ALPA has failed miserably in its education. I agree 100%. But did you rely on your training department 100% for your upgrade or did you take it upon yourself to demand a higher standard?

There you go again transferring blame. You can not expect your membership to really start working when they have little faith or respect in their leadership. I will hammer the point to you again that our leaders in National do not have respect when the masses are working for far less than the elitists in Herndon are collecting. It is matter of principle.

There are too many guys out there that need an elementary level of education on the politics of being an Air Line Pilot.... Is it too much to suggest they do so themselves??

Is it to much to suggest that there is to much politics in Herndon right now? As far as education, we have so much ilk in the industry now with guys like PCL128 that thinks they are owed a job because mom and dad bought their jobs. You have a base of pilots that have no real ethics and the fact that SJS is attracting a whole new cadre of dolts who want nothing but being a jet pilot at any cost.

I’d like to see some education by ALPA for these fools about what they are really getting into. Cut off the supply for management to fill the seats with warm bodies. Unfortunately, It is going to take a lot of accidents like the 2 "dudes" to hammer this point that the public is going to get what it pays for.

When we planned on becoming an Air Line Pilot we thought of the great equipment we wanted to operate and the great rewards. (pay and days off, etc..) No one ever said, I am going to be an effective pilot in the political arena. Yet, to get those days off and pay we have got to play politics. It is the only way.

Politics has a limitation. That limitation ends when the membership is not being served or getting their moneys worth. ALPA as a whole has gone so far beyond that line the actual lines of playing politics in Herndon have become blurred.

 

[Boeingman]

OK....what facts? Tells us. Also the "abysmal job of late" was it really ALPA or did it start with your elected LEC/MEC reps? Remember, you can always recall them starting with the next LEC meeting...

"Git after 'em, boy"

Tejas

The facts surround us daily. The abysmal job is two sided, but a large part rests with the national leadership. Naturally the LEC has a part of it. In fact at our carrier we threw out the guys who were not doing the job at the local level, and the entire MEC was under enough pressure they "resigned" instead of facing what was certainly in my opinion a recall.

Did we "git after em" well enough?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Post 1 of 2

Look in the mirror. Has it ever occurred to you that your snide comments, albeit not directly are obvious attacks on ones character? For example, your summations that I am a "hater" of ALPA when I tell you time and again my answers are based on disgust? Personally, I don’t care either way but you know this is the pot calling the kettle black scenario.

I'll concede that I am attacking ones attitude. I try not to use Wayne's World tatctics.... for example: douche

Isn’t this what our overpaid ALPA national leadership supposed to be doing? With those bloated salaries they shouldn’t be relying on some putzs on a forum to make their job easier. I have stated before though that those high priced ALPA lawyers need to be doing a better job of finding loopholes. I also feel their needs to be aggressive and vicious defenses and campaigns against the continuing degradation of our cba’s. The hob knobbing and poly anna approach this labor organization has elected to pursue does not work.

Perhaps he is overpaid. (let's make it clear, the ALPA President is the only one we are talking about. The ALPA VP's have had drastic cuts) Or perhaps he is overpaid because his is not performing to your expectations. Which, in this case, are your expectations realistic? Obviously our expectations aren't being met. None of us expected to be having this kind of airline career. Is that ALPA's fault; the 9/11 attacks, the industry transformation, the BKs, the CEO compensation, the anti union mantra of todays society?

Until all airline pilots realize that we are not white collar and ALPA is nothing but a trade organization nothing will change. Until we start to act like a real labor organization instead of a bunch pseudo management wanna be, these attacks on our careers will continue.

Agreed 100%. We are blue colloar hourly workers, just like hotel maids and factory workers. But I say we are unique in that we can market ourselves as professionals, if we act the part. And if we do, we can deal with the players, such as the Sec. of Transportation, the FAA administrator and Congressmen, as professionals. And when we talk to these players do we want to be perceived as blue collar workers or Professionals? I say we have more clout and effectiveness if we present ourselves as professionals. We need to behave so we can continue to be invited to the meetings, because we have no right to be there. The Teamsters and thier poor reputation can speak for the blue collar workers. Perhpas we need to shed the AFL-CIO. So I disagree that we need to act like a real labor organization. I say we need to act as unique as we are..... A Professional Association of Air Line Pilots.


I think they should be recalled. Period. They have been ineffective and show no signs of change or action to correct their abysmal record. They have completely lost touch with the line pilots they are grossly overpaid to represent. They also do not seem to listen to their constituents. My impression is this has become an organization of nothing but lip service and these guys will do anything to protect their precious union job and paychecks.

Have the leadership lost touch, or have to members who have not read flying the line, who have not been to any LEC meetings, who do not particpate in elections, who do not communicate with thier reps. I realize this is not you, but is it not a majority. And if so, who is really not in touch?

Not arguement from me. Run a recall. It is a democratic process and I'll support the outcome. Now, your above paragraph is your opinion. Can you be more specific? What goals, considering the current environement of our industry, has our ALPA leadership failed to obtain? Why do they not listen to their constituents? Can I be so bold as to say they won't do an SOS?

You have suggested a SOS. I say that is out of touch.

I fear, that what the general membership wants ALPA National to do is not legal or practical..or even possible. For example a national walk out. And that is not ALPA's fault, it is the pro business laws that favor managment.

Look at the alternative for them. Their penalty of failure is having to return to their respective carriers at a huge loss in salary and benefits.

Them again is only the President, as the three VPs. have taken huge paycuts and lost thier pension. Well, their failure would be bad for thier ego, but I think most wouldn't mind flying again and having 15+ days off instead 6 day, 60+ hour work week, with a cell phone constantly ringing...

Duh about the power vacuum. I am sure there are many, many people out there with fresh ideas and motivation to set the course we need. I confident that when these guys go, either by force or resignation, we will have people step up to the plate.

This is where your arguement loses creditibility. You just assume, there is a better replacement ready to step up to the plate. It is not possible there was a guy complaining about the previous president, saying what you are saying...??


You don’t get it do you? I want people in their that want the job for the job, not for what it is going to pay. I don’t want ass kissers that will say anything and do nothing to avoid working for their decimated contract at their repsective airline. I do not subscribe to the theory, especially with a union, that it takes more money to get better leadership. That is pure bull in my opinion.
If somebody accepts the job for less pay I say I would follow that guy to the gates of hell because he wants the job. Especially after seeing what a mess this, our, your beloved union has become.

Can we apply your logic to flying jets? There is a guy that will fly your jet cheaper than you and me, and who can provide better leadership as a CA or FO. Shall we resign?

Your dang right the industry is vital to the economy. Trouble is, noone outside of our world respects that fact because of the way we allowed ourselves to be decimated. Why is that? Abysmal leadership that are only interested in protecting their ass and salary in Herndon vs. True, gritty labor leaders. ALPA is so afraid of being the blue collar union we really ought to be. The facts and history speak for themself.

True gritty labor is the Teamsters, a quasi thug organization with more felonies than Sing Sing. Again, who do congressman want to deal with? Gritty labor leaders or Polished Professionals? And this is where ALPA may be excercising leadership that is not realized. A majority of Air Line Pilots are very disapointed, angry and fustrated. They need to feel in control and they are ready to take action! But are Teamster tactics really the answer? Is a national walk out or sick out and the unknown implications the correct method. (maybe the overpriced lawyers and thier opinion on this does have value).

It is my opinion that a walk or sick out is illegal. Expecting ALPA Officers to do so, will cost the union millions in fines and possible jail time. I guess it is easy for you to talk tough when you don't have your own head on the chopping block. Is that real leadership/follwership? Expecting your Officers to do something you wouldn't do yourself?

You say "we allowed ourselves to be decimated. " and I respond with let's look in the mirror and become more effective as individuals. It is quite clear that ALPA membership particpation is weak. Is it not fair to suggest that ALPA members become more engaged?

Post 2 of 2.....next

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Post 2 of 2

It is ALPA’s fault they have done NOTHING to even carry out a threat or even start the process. Only fools believe the current course ALPA has taken over the years has been effectual. Like I told you before, this is a question for the high priced attorneys to work out. I have said for years the RLA is a travesty and gives management far to much power. Why has there been little if any effort to change it?

Perhaps the "high priced" lawyers have worked it out and there is no SOS loophole that you think we need. Have you called ALPA legal to ask? (BTW, the lawyers can easily make more at a big firm, but they are unionist...)


Perhaps ALPA has done nothing because there is nothing to do on that level. There are no practical and legal threats to make. A threat would be counter productive! Congressmen, Cabinet Secreteries and Adminstrators do not respond to threats. What do you do when you are threaten? You respond in kind, usually with a bigger threat. And with an anti labor White House, the retaliation is scary.

Right now, when ALPA calls the White House the operator hangs up on us. This why ALPA endorsed Kerry. As awful as most think, there is a reason why. Back in the good ol' days when the ALPA President supported FDR it paid huge dividends, Same with NYC Mayor and congressman F. La Guardia.

I agree on your assesment of the RLA- however, we live in a country that is pro-management, pro business and very capitalistic. We live in a country where the poor cheer on the rich, because maybe, someday, someway they will be rich too! Rather the working class like you and I keep getting buried while Execuative compensation for our CEO's is up hundreds of percent....

Nonetheless, the RLA is what we got. Is that ALPA's fault? And if we are going to amend or get rid of the RLA we have to engage the legislative process on CapHill (ALPA-PAC!). In order to do that, we must play politics.

If ALPA calls an SOS, it very well maybe the RLA gets amended in favor of big business, just to show us pilots who is in charge!

Most of us including me, do not know the details of the political game. But ALPA Legislative Affairs does. Right now, ALPA PAC contributions are just over the 1 MIL mark. Imagine if it was 2 MIL, or 3 MIL or 4 Mil? It just burns guys up that they are asked to give money to ALPA-PAC after thier dues money, but this is the political game and Washington isn't going to change for a couple of Air Line Pilots. Money talks, BS walks. We've got to increase our PAC contributions to be more effective.


How about educating the membership into a pride of being an airline pilot? That pride is instilled from a wage that is commensurate with your abilities? That pride like in the military is support for your brothers. If NWA walks, We all walk. Never going to happen because of the complete apathy that has permeated within all of us as pilots. I say to you sir this apathy starts at the top.

I agree 200%. I am passionate about this! One factor is people (pilots too ) are a product of their environment. Pay them well, and they will have have pride. If they work for a great company, they will have pride. But take away that pay and status and they seem to slide into negativity, defensiveness and blame.

I say we have to find Pride from within, not from our companies and paycheck. Unfortunately the military comparison doesn't work well, but I wish we had that level of comaradiere. In the military the common ground is national defense. At our airline the common ground is making a buck. The company wants to make a buck and so do we. It's all about the $.

However, one source of pride can be found in Flying the Line and When the Airlines Went to War. I suggest we all read.

Again, if NWA walks, how can we all walk? The RLA and NMB won't allow it. It is impossible, so stop trying to making the ALPA leadership accountable for for something that is irresponsible and impossible! It has nothing to do with apathy, high union compensation and poor leadership!


We did in 83. It is comical listening to others now that were so rabid about CAL in 83 to do this have now caved like kindergartners when their own contracts are under pressure.

I respect your efforts in '83. Unconditionally.


There you go again transferring blame. You can not expect your membership to really start working when they have little faith or respect in their leadership. I will hammer the point to you again that our leaders in National do not have respect when the masses are working for far less than the elitists in Herndon are collecting. It is matter of principle.

This is where you and I disagree. First, in my opinion, you expect the ALPA leadership to conduct activity (SOS) that they cannot do, or if they do, it will define us as union thugs. They've made a choice you don't like. Thus, and therefore its your opinion they are DWoerthless.


Again, there are no elitists at ALPA national, except for DW if you must insist there is one. The other ALPA National officers are getting paid what they would at their own carrier. These UAL, DAL and USAIR pilots are making ~150K. Does that sound about right?

You bascially are at a mexican standoff with ALPA leadership. You won't do anything yourself and you expect them to do everything. I say you and the membership need to properly align your expectations.

I can expect the membership to get a basic and elementry education on ALPA. I can expect them to read Flying the Line. I can expect them to communicate with thier elected officials. I can expect them to attend LEC meetings. I can expect them to vote for thier elected officials. And finally.......

I expect the membership to become informed on the issues and to understand how the process works so they don't cause a level of dis-unification! IOW... calling for a SOS is counter productive. It is not a possibility, but when ALPA members do so they distract others and plant seeds of discontent in our ALPA leadership which erodes our effectiveness.

Is it to much to suggest that there is to much politics in Herndon right now? As far as education, we have so much ilk in the industry now with guys like PCL128 that thinks they are owed a job because mom and dad bought their jobs. You have a base of pilots that have no real ethics and the fact that SJS is attracting a whole new cadre of dolts who want nothing but being a jet pilot at any cost.

Yes, it is too much to suggest there is too much politics. Politics is everything in Herndon and WashDC. That is like saying, is it too much to suggest there is too much football at the Superbowl! Too much Jesus Christ at Church. Look if you don't like politics, no problem, but we have to be willing to support those who will do the political work for us. That is our Association.

There is some validity to your SJS comment. However, the thing to do is pull these guys aside and show them how to be real Air Line Pilots. Tell them they had better be ready to do what you do in '83.

I’d like to see some education by ALPA for these fools about what they are really getting into. Cut off the supply for management to fill the seats with warm bodies. Unfortunately, It is going to take a lot of accidents like the 2 "dudes" to hammer this point that the public is going to get what it pays for.

A valid point and a very difficult situation. I think the solution lies in ALPA education. This education can be initated by Herndon, but can't we also initiate it as individuals?

Politics has a limitation. That limitation ends when the membership is not being served or getting their moneys worth. ALPA as a whole has gone so far beyond that line the actual lines of playing politics in Herndon have become blurred.

Ok, sure politics has limitations, just like everything in life... If politics has it limitations then why can't you understand that the ALPA Leadership might have limitations?

Finally, call ALPA National, 888-FLY-ALPA. Any polite and professional inquiry will probably get an audience. A caller might even talk to one of the VPs. I am confident that the caller will hang up with a different perspective....

By doing this, one will actually get informed on the issues, instead of relying on message board chatter, crewroom fustration and union busting websites. The risk is, what does one do, when they realize the issues are grey and they can no longer obtain the instant gratification that Flightinfo provides.

Respectfully....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Rez -

Good response!

No raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.

ALPA is the effort. In some cases, the only effort. The forces arrayed against us are many, strong, and rich. The RLA was not written by airline pilots. What protections it does afford us are enforced by the Executive Branch...which is run by a gentleman who doesn't like Labor...and doesn't like us.

When Duane's compensation was indexed to the top earners at ALPA nobody said squat while those earnings were going up. UAL's big deal in 2000?

Woo hoo!

DAL's bigger deal in 2001?

You go, Duane!

The trend is now going the other way, and Duane's pay is going down. Not fast enough or low enough for some of us who don't bother to call their reps are figure out how it is structured. The irritating piece for me is that many of us will believe the inaccurate stuff posted on an anti-union website...but won't believe our own reps - the guys we fly with that we elected to represent us.

By the way, that is not an opinion! I read it on the internet, so it is a fact that cannot be disputed.

Hail truthiness!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In U.S. airline fights, pilots often the last workers standing

Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)

Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.

The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.

On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.

To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.

ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.

Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.

"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.

"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."

ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.

The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.

Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.

But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.

The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.

"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.

And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.

"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.

Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.

"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.

"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."