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LearjetGA

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
61
This is the question of the day.

You are flying a Learjet 35A under Part135. You have a trip going from the Boston area to the Turks and Caicos.
Trip length is 1400 miles, the only alternate is the Bermudas.
The rest is water. Time enroute is going to be 3 hours and 35 minutes. (endurance 5+ hours @ M .76) (Time enroute over mainland requires one stop and takes 6 hours)

One other problem is the RVSM and MNPS zone. Knowing that Mnps is going to start at 67 West and RVSM is in effect all over the Bermuda triangle until FL390. (thanks for the information, Falcon)

The only altitude is FL410 (who would like to explore the coffin corner at the service ceiling altitude of a fully loaded Lear over tons of water, anyway)

So, would YOU do it ?

If Yes, imagine, that you start at dusk, you have never been there, and you fly with 1 IFR GPS only (a second GPS is only VFR) and you com with a HF that you have never operated in that particular plane before.

Would YOU still do it.

I posted this actual problem to have any good advice, and to see how many people would do it.

LearjetGA
 
forgive me I dont remember 135 rules anymore...
but....
3+35 is fine in a Lear 35 if you ask me. I kept one in the air for 5 hrs before no prob...well...
Overwater ...so...whats the big deal?
did you check if you can make all your alternates in case of Depressurize? (10,000ft) (usually worst senario), engine failure?
Bermuda Triangle? what are you going to do, fly around it? call Ms Cleo before you go....whys this an issue?
HF you never used? try it on the ground or have it ops checked before you go or venture out too far...no big deal...dont you have to have TWO for 135???? forgive me if Im wrong..
Isn't the 35 certified for FL 450?? coffin corner? not a single thing wrong with flying at 450, save fuel, plus you will most likely be doing LRC anyways...maybe .78.....dont be afraid of the learjet at 450..just dont fall asleep for too long.

P.S. - I used to sometimes stop in Bermuda for fuel in a 35 from NY/Boston area if going far down in the carribean (Barbados) bermuda is an OK tech stop....quick in and out.
just an idea....might put you at ease...trip does not become longer and its usually a 25-30 min tech stop.

Does not sound impossible, I suggest using UNIVERSAL for flight planning, they take care of the legalities with alternates fuel reserves and such...we always run multiple plans to determine if a trip is possible beforehand.only way to go if you ask me.

BUT, the most IMPORTANT thing is how YOU feel, not me or your boss. You sound like you have talked yourself out of it already and are asking us if you are justified....of course you are. Thats all that matters. You are the PIC. Maybe you are new at it, is there a more experienced pilot in your company that can go with you??
Dont be a hero i say....dont give into pressure.
I have personally been given trips in the past I flat out turned down, told them they need a bigger plane. period. Just have all you reasons researched so you sound smart!

my motto always was.....nobody move nobody get hurt.

good luck
 
Lear Jet,

Its sad but true, that many in our profession either know someone or have themselves pushed the edge of the aircraft performance envelop and the personal performance envelop and embarked upon a risky trip under less than stellar circumstances for one reason or another. Most common reasons are pressing boss, either on the plane with you or back at base or nagging passengers that don’t want to hear it and you particularly don’t care to ever have to engage in conversation beyond the cabin safety brief.

Personally, I say screw’em both!

Why?

You’re in charge, you’re in the drivers seat, you’re the freaking pilot, end of story.

Because, if things go bad and your “lucky”, you’ll be having many long, one-sided conversations with men in dark colored suits in dimly lit rooms wanting nothing more than to violate you and your certificates into administrative oblivion. If your not so “lucky”, most likely we’ll all be discussing the “end results” on this and other boards as the US Navy and NTSB wait for the luggage to wash ashore.

By virtue of your post it is clear to me that you already know the answer, you’re just looking for some moral support, mutual reassurance.

Always play it safe, when in doubt don’t do it.

Sheik
 
Just be careful...
the "IM the pilot, its my license, I say NO" is NOT the answer you want to give...
Yes, you may very well know you ARE NOT doing a trip a certain way..
remember...

It can ALWAYS be done, may take 3X as much time and 10X as much money, but it can ALWAYS be done, and you, as thier highly qualified and expericenced pilot, know just how to do it.. Thats what they want to hear.

Do your research and give them all the possible scenarios (routes, diffrent a/c, etc..) with plenty of notice.
Stand your ground, be safe, but dont let your answer be "Im NOT going to do it, Im the CAPTAIN"
that kind of answer will get you nothing but replaced.
remember in this business we are dealing with ego maniacs and you are just a driver...just the facts!!!
 
LearjetGA:

Are YOU comfortable making this trip? You see it does not matter if I'm comfortable making the trip or if anyone on this board is comfortable making this trip. What matters is are you comfortable with it?

I'm just curious...What's the weather like?
 
I was under the impression that the RVSM started at FL310 and went up to 390. In my limited experience, we have always gone under the RVSM...ie FL290 or FL280. The 35 will still sip gas at those altitudes.

Have fun down there!

--Seabass
 
It has been years since I flew the 35, so forgive me. But I seem to remember that a max gross weight 35 won't make 450 until sometime around the 2.5 hour mark and it better be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** cold up there. On an standard day it might take 3 hours to get to 450.
The 35 is no rocket, like THEY want you to believe.
Beware of "coffin corner" it does exist and it needs to be respected. The margin between low and high speed buffet can be very small. Throw in a turn and some turbulence and you are going to be in for the ride of your life.
 
EOW

If you really want to know "PM" me and I will give you the name and number of the guy you need to talk to. He has written an extensive article in PP mag. about EOWP and has been making trips from the west coast to PHNL for over 15 years. He can answer all your questons. There are alot of people out there with lear experience, and there are the ones who know what a lear can do, and it is alot more than you think.
 
Risk management assessment

LearjetGA,

Purely from a risk management standpoint, there are simpy too many cards stacked against you in this deck. Make the stop... take the extra hour penalty... not a big deal!

From a logistical point of view, is this trip, (as it is described), even legal? I'm not sure if you will penetrate the airspace but if you do; not sure by your post but, are you operating with only one long range nav over RVSM/MNPS airspace? Even if you overfly the airspace, what if you have to descend into it for an unforseen circumstance? I.e., pressurization problem, loss of an engine, etc... If so, yill you be crossing the West bound Atlantic traffic at their "rush hour?" You will certainly have to turn West, primarily to parallel the Atlantic traffic and, secondarily to find a suitable landing site. How will you know where the tracks are? How will you parallel them? There are already too many things wrong here. Make the stop... take the extra hour penalty... not a big deal!
 
I would have to agree with CL60, do your research. Dont be a hero and try to make it nonstop-no matter how many Lear drvrs say you can fly for 5hrs. I flew 35's and 31's for 6 yrs. and have done many trips to the islands. How much fuel does your bird hold? 6238lbs? or do you have a 36? What are your average burns for your engines? Also, how much do you want to land with? Min reserves over the ocean? Not smart. Where is your alternate? Are you legal 135 with your Ops specs. with just one GPS? Do you have life vests and enough rafts with the 50% overflow requirement?

Also, I wouldnt trust Universal or Base ops to tell you it will work. As the others have posted, take the info from these services and compare them to the numbers that you came up with for YOUR airplane. No one knows YOUR bird better than you. I cant tell you how many times one of these services has tried to file me at the wrong alt. or an alt. that would be physically impossible to reach considering current aircraft weight, outside temp ie, ISA and winds. Also, make sure you have the obvious paper work when you go. 91 Private customs sticker-even though your 135, agriculture cards, Gen decs, and maby some tourist cards, and most important- passports. Dont let anyone tell you that you dont need them and that you can get away with using a birth certificate. You will have a bitch of a time trying to get back in the states without one if you dont have a decent customs person.
Also, are all or your Pax. us citizens, if not they will also need to show a visa from their perspective country.

Anyway, just my .02 worth. Hope you have a good and safe trip.
Just make sure to CYA.
 
Thank You

Thank You for all your responses.

First of all, the Bermuda Triangle was a figure of speech, i used it because it summarized pretty good the route that was initially chosen. Shall i remind : Triangle stretches from the Bermudas to Puerto Rico to Miami. No Miss Cleo here, G200.

So here is what happened. The flight was done last week. Our ops manual and ops specs approuve the use of one Gps for long range navigation as long it has been checked against a class 1 navigation facility before leaving mainland.

The weather was clear all along the way. Since i am not the most experienced guy around, i asked for a co-captain, friend of mine who was off that day but still joined me.

One of the concerns i had about flying above the atlantic was first get up to FL410 with a full load of fuel (6238 lbs),and 5 pax with bags. (no need to discuss the FL450, just not possible in these conditions). Second was the fact that if you have a problem, you land in the Bermudas, and then, and that's when it starts to get funny, what do you do if you have a technical there, is there somebody to help. I am not sure about that.

So I explained our passengers the pros and cons and why i chose to take the long route and they agreed that the extra hour was worth it. The Mainland route became an extra asset when one of the pax developed a medical condition (allergy) and we had to land in Miami. During the time that our pax got treated we invited the others to go to diner. When everybody was there and fit to go, we continued our journey and arrived without any further incident to our destination.
 
Relief

LearjetGA,

I'm very happy to hear you took the conservative route and played it safe. Whew! There are already too many "yes" people out here. Good risk management.

Just curious; how would you have addressed the issue of having to descend into RVSM/MNPS airspace if it became necessary? Without the proper RNP you could have been in trouble with the Feds, not to mention the fact that something forced you down there to begin with. I'm assuming that your ops specs approved your over-water route somehow???

Thanks in advance,
 
Learjet GA...
Ok understand the triangle thing...my fault
Sounds like you made the safe decision, nothing wrong with that!
just curious...why not just fuel stop in Bermuda and go from there....??
there IS service in Bermuda 24hrs if needed AND airlines and charters close to get your folks outta there if you broke bad, etc....
OH well, glad to hear it went well!
 
We should do this again.

Thanks for all the responses.

I think we could do this more often. Post some real life situations to see what the different opinions are. I, personally, found it very interesting to see a debate between people with tons of experience compared to people with less experience (like myself).

Fly safe
LearjetGA:cool:
 
Excuse my ignorancewith the 135 rules- how far is the alternate from destination? Under our 121 op specs we require 2 hrs fuel for a destination(island) with no alternate specified. It sounds like either way it could get interesting.
 
Just a quick question for ya.....

Which pilot was on oxygen for the time above FL350?

I would venture to guess that no one was. This is the most violated regualtion in the book. Something else to consider.

Fly safe
 
Archaic Regulations

Sooner or later we all need to decide that we are in the space shuttle. I don't see them wearing masks in Columbia and the relative value of rho is somewhat less in a vacuum than at 51,000 ft. Even when the Air Force Regs were updated and AFR 60-1 became AFI 11-202 they retained table 6-1 calling for pressure suits above 50,000 feet!

I don't think that current regs reflect the quality and reliability of new technology aircraft. When Bombardier was planning to build their first Challenger that would go above 41,000 ft. (the Global Express) they petitioned the FAA to change this rule. The FAA denied the request. Oddly, when the FAA flies N1 above 41,000 feet or participates in a cert. program for aircraft flying above 41,000 feet, they don't wear a mask themselves.
 
Technology

EDM... "tech-cedure" above 40,000 only with AP/AT engaged (GV).

The AF and the FAA need to catch up....
 
While I agree that the regualtion requiring oxygen is outdated, the fact of the matter is that it is still there. The person who started this thread was talking alot about the regulations and being able to make the trip. I was merely pointing out that this MUST be taken into account when planning a flight.

No 135 operator should pressure a pilot to fly this trip if it cannot be made safely while adhearing to all FAR's. You cannot pick and choose which rules to follow and which to break.

Fly safe
 
FLY.80 said:
While I agree that the regualtion requiring oxygen is outdated, the fact of the matter is that it is still there....You cannot pick and choose which rules to follow and which to break.

Fly safe

Noble sentiment...

Conduct a grass roots plebiscite - listen to your radios and see how many crews flying above 41,000 feet have one pilot on the mask. Even when ops specs require it, the requirement is winked at by management.

In my view it would be unsafe to wear a mask for 14 hours, not only from the residual effects of breathing pure O2 for that long, but also because of fatigue. In the GV, if you have a blow-out, the jet does the same thing I would do being a competently trained semi-alert pilot who can don an immediately available quick-don oxygen mask in under the time -of - useful consciousness at 51,000 feet - that is to say if cabin altitude exceeds 8,000 feet with the jet above 40,000 ft., the jet rolls into a left bank for a 90 degree heading change, the autothrottles retard to idle, it lowers the nose, accelerates to MMO/VMO and dives to 15,000 ft, then stabilizes at 250 knots and waits for me to wake-up. If your not in the Hindu Kush Mountains when this occurs, you're probably OK.
 
Enjoyable string, guys, but here's some more food for thought-

1) When you are breathing O2 it is not "pure" O2 unless you have selected 100% or EMER. Normal setting is an O2/cabin air mix.

2) If you had an emergency and had to descend through RVSM airspace, I would think that declaring the emergency should be adequate, but I have not operated in RVSM yet- anyone want to clarify this for me?

3 Diplomatically telling owners or charter customers that what they are proposing does not meet with your personal safety requirments. I have found that it is better with VIP's to present them with choices- ie, "We make the tech stop here or here, which do you prefer?", Rather than, "I'm the PIC and I say we need to stop on the way". They like to feel that they are in control . . . .

3) Lastly, don't let water give you pause, as long as you have done the operational planning and taken into consideration things like wet footprint, and, like someone else mentioned, contingencies like a loss of pressurization that might require a descent to an altitude where your fuel burn would not let let you make an airport.
 
Last edited:
It's not just a noble sentiment, these are the rules we MUST live by.

In 135 operations supplemental Oxygen is required anytime a pressurised aircraft is operated above FL350. The feds in the Cleveland area have been ramp checking to see how much Oxygen you have remaining when you land. Here is the

RegSection 135.89:

Pilot requirements: Use of oxygen.
(a) Unpressurized aircraft. Each pilot of an unpressurized aircraft shall use oxygen continuously when flying --

(1) At altitudes above 10,000 feet through 12,000 feet MSL for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration; and

(2) Above 12,000 feet MSL.

(b) Pressurized aircraft. (1) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated with the cabin pressure altitude more than 10,000 feet MSL, each pilot shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(2) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 25,000 feet through 35,000 feet MSL, unless each pilot has an approved quick-donning type oxygen mask --

(i) At least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude exceeds 12,000 feet MSL; and

(ii) During that flight, each other pilot on flight deck duty shall have an oxygen mask, connected to an oxygen supply, located so as to allow immediate placing of the mask on the pilot's face sealed and secured for use.

(3) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 35,000 feet MSL, at least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask required by paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section.

(4) If one pilot leaves a pilot duty station of an aircraft when operating at altitudes above 25,000 feet MSL, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an approved oxygen mask until the other pilot returns to the pilot duty station of the aircraft.
 
GVFlyer,
No I'm not with the FAA.

I am however pretty fed up with 135 operators pressuring pilots to do things that are not LEGAL. A lot (not all) of 135 operators feel that it is necessary to bend regs in order to get the job done. I don't think the FAA would be as understanding if you were to have an accident because you did something illegal.


That's all....
 
Ty Webb said:
Enjoyable string, guys, but here's some more food for thought-

1) When you are breathing O2 it is not "pure" O2 unless you have selected 100% or EMER. Normal setting is an O2/cabin air mix.


Depends on what you fly. Diluter Demand is OK at low altitudes, but keep in mind that where we are normally flying, between 43,000 ft and 51,000 ft., you need 100% Oxygen Pressure Demand to keep you alive.

It's interesting to note that no one yet has made a passenger mask that will keep anyone alive above 35,000.

Do you know how you certify an airplane for maximum altitude? In most cases, it's the altitude at which should a rapid decompression occur, you can make an emergency descent without putting somebody in the back to sleep before you get to the thick air. You go into a negotiation process with the FAA to determine the maximum size hole you can have in the pressure vessel that will not be exceeded at a frequency greater than 1 in 10 to the 7th power. You then simulate a hole that size in the jet and dive from the altitude you are trying to certify. As you are going down, the cabin is coming up to meet you. At some point the two will meet and the cabin will follow the airplane down.
 
It sounds like there maybe some training issues that need to be addressed as well. I would fly the inland route if I hadn't been trained in the use of an HF and Class II navigation. The operator of the lear should have paid for the training for you(if you hadn't received any). If they won't train you to fly in the areas that you are expected to operate in, then do what is safest and let them work out the extra time and money issues.
 
WAT RVSM

2) If you had an emergency and had to descend through RVSM airspace, I would think that declaring the emergency should be adequate, but I have not operated in RVSM yet- anyone want to clarify this for me?

From the RVSM procedures for the Western Atlantic:

6.2 The following general procedures apply to both subsonic and supersonic aircraft and are intended as guidance only. Although all possible contingencies cannot be covered, they provide for cases of inability to maintain assigned level due to:

weather;
aircraft performance;
pressurization failure; and
problems associated with high-level supersonic flight.

6.3 The procedures are applicable primarily when rapid descent and/or turn-back or diversion to an alternate airport is required. The pilot’s judgment shall determine the sequence of actions to be taken, taking into account specific circumstances.

6.4 If an aircraft is unable to continue flight in accordance with its air traffic control clearance, a revised clearance shall, whenever possible, be obtained prior to initiating any action, using a distress or urgency signal as appropriate.

6.5 If prior clearance cannot be obtained, an ATC clearance shall be obtained at the earliest possible time and, until a revised clearance is received, the pilot shall:

a) if possible, deviate away from an organized track or route system;

b) establish communications with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: flight identification, flight level, aircraft position, (including the ATS route designator or the track code) and intentions on the frequency in use, as well as on frequency 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, the VHF inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45);

c) watch for conflicting traffic both visually and by reference to ACAS (if equipped); and

d) turn on all aircraft exterior lights (commensurate with appropriate operating limitations).

7.0 In-flight Contingency Procedures for Subsonic Aircraft Requiring Rapid Descent, Turn-back or Diversion

Initial action

7.1 If unable to comply with the provisions of paragraph 6.3 to obtain a revised ATC clearance, the aircraft should leave its assigned route or track by turning 90 degrees right or left whenever this is possible. The direction of the turn should be determined by the position of the aircraft relative to any organized route or track system (for example, whether the aircraft is outside, at the edge of, or within the system). Other factors to consider are terrain clearance and the levels allocated to adjacent routes or tracks.

Subsequent action

7.2 AIRCRAFT ABLE TO MAINTAIN LEVEL. An aircraft able to maintain its assigned level should acquire and maintain in either direction a track laterally separated by 30 NM from its assigned route or track and once established on the offset track, climb or descend 500 ft (150 m).

7.3 AIRCRAFT UNABLE TO MAINTAIN LEVEL. An aircraft NOT able to maintain its assigned level should, whenever possible, minimize its rate of descent while turning to acquire and maintain in either direction a track laterally separated by 30 NM from its assigned route or track. For subsequent level flight, a level should be selected which differs by 500 ft (150 m) from those normally used.

7.4 DIVERSION ACROSS THE FLOW OF ADJACENT TRAFFIC. Before commencing a diversion across the flow of adjacent traffic, the aircraft should, while maintaining the 30 NM offset, expedite climb above or descent below levels where the majority of aircraft operate (e.g., to a level above FL 410 or below FL 290) and then maintain a level which differs by 500 ft (150 m) from those normally used. However, if the pilot is unable or unwilling to carry out a major climb or descent, the aircraft should be flown at a level 500 ft above or below levels normally used until a new ATC clearance is obtained.


8.0 Weather Deviation Procedures

General procedures

8.1 The following procedures are intended to provide guidance for deviations around thunderstorms. All possible circumstances cannot be covered. The pilot’s judgment shall ultimately determine the sequence of actions taken and ATC shall render all possible assistance.

8.2 If the aircraft is required to deviate from track to avoid weather and prior clearance cannot be obtained, an air traffic control clearance shall be obtained at the earliest possible time. In the meantime, the aircraft shall follow the procedures detailed in paragraph 8.6 below.

8.3 The pilot shall advise ATC when weather deviation is no longer required, or when a weather deviation has been completed and the aircraft has returned to the centerline of its cleared route.

8.4 Obtaining priority from ATC when weather deviation is required.

8.4.1 When the pilot initiates communications with ATC, rapid response may be obtained by stating "WEATHER DEVIATION REQUIRED" to indicate that priority is desired on the frequency and for ATC response.

8.4.2 The pilot still retains the option of initiating the communications using the urgency call "PAN PAN PAN" to alert all listening parties to a special handling condition which will receive ATC priority for issuance of a clearance or assistance.

8.5 Actions to be taken when controller-pilot communications are established

8.5.1 The pilot notifies ATC and requests clearance to deviate from track, advising, when possible, the extent of the deviation expected.

7.4.2 ATC takes one of the following actions:

1 if there is no conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension, ATC will issue clearance to deviate from track; or
2 if there is conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension, ATC separates aircraft by establishing vertical separation; or
3 if there is conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension and ATC is unable to establish vertical separation, ATC shall:
a) advise the pilot unable to issue clearance for requested deviation;
b) advise pilot of essential traffic; and
c) request pilot’s intentions.

SAMPLE PHRASEOLOGY:
“Unable to clear (requested deviation), traffic is (call sign, position, altitude, direction), advise intentions.”

8.5.3 The pilot will take the following actions:

1. Advise ATC of intentions; and
2. Comply with air traffic control clearance issued; or
3. Execute the procedures detailed in 8.6 below. (ATC will issue essential traffic information to all affected aircraft).
4. If necessary, establish voice communications with ATC to expedite dialogue on the situation

8.6 Actions to be taken if a revised air traffic control clearance cannot be obtained

8.6.1 The pilot shall take the actions listed below under the provision that the pilot may deviate from rules of the air, when it is absolutely necessary in the interests of safety to do so.

7.5.2 If a revised air traffic control clearance cannot be obtained and deviation from track is required to avoid weather, the pilot should take the following actions:

1 if possible, deviate away from an organized track or route system;

2 establish communication with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: flight identification, flight level, aircraft position (including the ATS route designator or the track code) and intentions (including the magnitude of the deviation expected) on the frequency in use, as well as on frequency 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, the VHF inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45).

3 watch for conflicting traffic both visually and by reference to ACAS (if equipped);

4 turn on all aircraft exterior lights (commensurate with appropriate operating limitations);

5 for deviations of less than 10 NM, aircraft should remain at the level assigned by ATC;

6 for deviations of greater than 10NM, when the aircraft is approximately 10 NM from track, initiate a level change based on the following criteria:

Route center line track Deviations >10 NM Level change
EAST (000-179 magnetic)
LEFT DESCEND 300 ft
RIGHT CLIMB 300 ft

WEST (180-359 magnetic)
RIGHT CLIMB 300 ft
LEFT DESCEND 300 ft



Note: 8.6.2.2 and 8.6.2.3 above call for the pilot to: broadcast aircraft position and pilot’s intentions, identify conflicting traffic and communicate air-to-air with near-by aircraft. If the pilot determines that there is another aircraft at or near the same FL with which his aircraft might conflict, then the pilot is expected to adjust the path of the aircraft, as necessary, to avoid conflict.

7 if contact was not established prior to deviating, continue to attempt to contact ATC to obtain a clearance. If contact was established, continue to keep ATC advised of intentions and obtain essential traffic information.

8 when returning to track, be at its assigned flight level, when the aircraft is within approximately 10 NM of center line.
 
CitationCapt,

Not quite sure what you're asking. Are we assuming an aircraft not properly RNP equipped is overflying RVSM/MNPS airspace and subsequently has to descend through it for whatever reason? If you lived through it, I'm not sure if declaring an emergency would get you off the hook, especially if you caused a conflict. I assumed th operator in question would have to answer some pretty tough questions however, I have to find some data to back that up.

The major issue here is, how will you be able to adequately navigate the NAT system with perhaps only one long range nav that may or may not know exactly where it is and an uncertified altimitetry system? If you interfere with the tracks or otherwise cause mayhem out there you will definitely be a sought after individual by the authorities.

Declaring an emergency is fine however, in a non-radar environment, if you are unable to broadcast your position and correct altitude with absolute certainty, you are placing a great many people at risk. I know of several operators who always fly over the tracks but always and only with properly certificated aircraft and trained pilots.

In my opinion, anyone overflying the tracks without adequate navigational and altitude readout performance, and contingecy planning is asking for trouble and placing others in jeopardy.

Flying the track system is complex enough without having to worry about a stray aircraft flying around in the dark.

Since I always fly within the system, I never researched the overflight problem. I'll get back to you if I find anything solid on the legal issue. I'm sure someone has dealt with this topic before.
 
MASPS

CitationCapt... FYI,

"MASPS," Minimum Aircraft System Performance Specifications, is the MNPS version of RNP. (I errroneously used the incorrect acronym in a prior post).

The North Atlantic MNPS Operations Manual, published on behalf of the North Atlantic System Planning Group by the ICAO, does have provisions for non-RVSM approved and non-MNPS approved aircraft to penetrate and operate within the airspace under a "Special Arrangements" section. Obviously this would have to be taken care of in advance. That is all I can find on it so far...
 

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