Woo Hoo

[alimaui]

Okay, this can be added to the list of dorky virtual pilots, but I dont care its my 100th post!


Actually technically not, because the last post to ladybug would have been it except for the guy who wanted to sue his interviewer for hiring a female instead of him, claiming it was discrimination-deleted his post. I would imagine he was a little put off by all of us who told him to suck it up. (If you cannot tell, I was a little dissappointed when he deleted that thread.)

Well, happy posting, and well wishes to you and your families on this memorial day. For all of the pilots here who have served in the military, I appreciate every day that you are away from your families and in less than desirable places to protect the things we hold dear.

Ali

 

[Britpilot]

Discrimination

[
Actually technically not, because the last post to ladybug would have been it except for the guy who wanted to sue his interviewer for hiring a female instead of him, claiming it was discrimination-deleted his post. I would imagine he was a little put off by all of us who told him to suck it up. (If you cannot tell, I was a little dissappointed when he deleted that thread.)

Ali [/B]

Interesting, are you saying that discrimination is acceptable because a female was involved? If the female was hired simply because of gender then this is very wrong. If the guy was just upset at not being hired, then he is wrong. If a level playing field is what we all want then let it be that, a fair shot for everyone regardless of gender or race. Employment based on candidate quality and experiance is how it should be. As a professional pilot I want the best person in the cockpit with me not someone hired on the basis of political correctness. Before you all start slaming me, I am a minority who prefers fair play at all levels.

 

[JediNein]

I think all of us are preaching to the choir. I am SICK of magazines, message board postings, and so on that constantly whine about being discriminated against.

I had one boss that reminded me I was still a nigger in aviation. Yes, this id10t told me I was one because I was female. Did I file a lawsuit? No, a horse's rear end ain't worth it. Why would I want to continue working for a place that obviously doesn't want me? I don't even list the place on my resume.

Yes, it happens! PMS is still Putting up with Men's Sh... you know. (Guys, the cure is chocolate and absolutely no comments about weight. The few that survived making comments can attest to that.)

Sometimes an employer will choose diversity over qualifications. That only hurts the employer because they didn't get the best person for the job. Or the employer gets stupid and loses a good employee. Sometimes that one employee can make or break the business.

Ok, I'll stop preaching now, any further folks that make new posts about discrimination will get a link to this post as my response.... *Jedi Nein hears the sighs of relief in the choir.*

Fly SAFE!

 

[typhoonpilot]

JediNein


Is your avatar Mara Jade ?

 

[alimaui]

Re: Discrimination

Interesting, are you saying that discrimination is acceptable because a female was involved?

No, I do not agree indiscrimination in any way, shape or form.

If the female was hired simply because of gender then this is very wrong. If the guy was just upset at not being hired, then he is wrong. If a level playing field is what we all want then let it be that, a fair shot for everyone regardless of gender or race.

This was posted a while back, but the jist of his post was. (Forgive me, I can only type what I remember.) He said he went on an interview and was not hired for the position. He said he heard it through the grapevine that they needed/wanted ( I cant remember exactly) to hire a woman for the job. He was asking for opinions on whether this matter should be pursued legally.

Many told him that this would be a very difficult case to prove even if it was true. In a way he kind of just sounded like a whiner for not getting the job. Many MALES on this board told him that it would be hard to pursue, and in any case to SUCK IT UP.

I simply said in my post that gender discimination is not new to the industry (I am not validating discrimination that falls in the favor of my gender). It is simply part of the history of aviation. Frankly, in some cases it is still part of the present of aviation when talking about disciminationn against the fairer sex. Please do not interpret this as me not caring what females attain and how they attain it (by unfair means). Because I suffer the consequences everytime a women is hired, fired, promoted or otherwise treated if the treatment is not deserved. The stigma will be attached to me because I am a woman. Some male pilots (the j@ck@sses)will make me responsible when a women gets hired over thier buddy or maybe needs a little extra work on a maneuver. (Men need extra work on maneuvers too sometimes).

Employment based on candidate quality and experiance is how it should be. As a professional pilot I want the best person in the cockpit with me not someone hired on the basis of political correctness.

Completely agree with you here. Key here is should be. Unfortuneately this is not a perfect world and things are not always as they should be.

Before you all start slaming me, I am a minority who prefers fair play at all levels.

Never! I believe in the golden rule and shall never slam unless slammed first. This post (the current one) was not meant to slam, insult or otherwise, just to clarify.

Ali

 

[bobbysamd]

Let's throw in age discrimination . . . .

How 'bout giving people who are older a fair shot?? Don't forget about age discrimination, folks. You hear people complain so much about minorities and women being given hiring preference, but you don't hear about people older than the norm being given preference. The reason why you don't is simple; quite the opposite happens. Older people are put in the back of the line or in the round file.

Age discrimination trancends race and gender. In other words, you don't have to be a minority and/or female to be "too old." I was a career changer to aviation before career changing became in vogue. By the time I was ripe for the commuters, which was about 1990, I was nearly 40. I was up front about my age on my resume because it's hard to disguise a 25-year work history, and my age would be found out sooner or later. I received few responses to my apps and resumes compared to the tons of stuff I sent to the commuters, some of whom I sent materials for years. There wasn't much hiring in the early '90s, but, curiously, flight instructors just like me and who worked with me were hired, but with lesser hours and quals, and who were nearly half my age.

It doesn't take a pilot or even a rocket scientist to figure out that I was discriminated against because of age. There was nothing I could do about it or prove it, but you won't convince me otherwise.

No, it is not a perfect world.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Let's throw in age discrimination . . . .

[.

It doesn't take a pilot or even a rocket scientist to figure out that I was discriminated against because of age. There was nothing I could do about it or prove it, but you won't convince me otherwise.

. [/B][/QUOTE]

Now that is interesting as I too am a carreer changer who was hired by a National airline when I was 39. Age was not an issue and I was also a flight instructor in the 90's. There was not very much movement than as now but I kept on sending out my resume and in fact was hired on the spot after the two interviews by the company I still work for (well the name has changed but the job is the same). I also made it to check airman and I have never seen any age discrimination any where in the company. Some airlines prefer some older candidates to add some maturity to the mix. Sorry you had such bad luck but I don't belive your situation is or was the norm.

 

[alimaui]

Boy oh boy Ali, way to go opening another can of worms!

Actually, believe it or not I put that paragraph in the original post just as a little humorous touch. I figured this post would just make its way to the bottom, never to be heard from again, but you are right. I did open a can of worms. Its a good thing that the title of the post is "woo hoo" and not "Flame bait for discrimination"

Ali

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, Britpilot . . . .

When during the '90s were you hired? I know that there was plenty of hiring from about 1995 to 2001. I'm talking about the late '80s-early '90s. I was 40-ish when I became ripe. There is something about being 40 that the commuters find problematical. Maybe Jack Benny had something when he always said his age was 39. In any event, further to your point, I thought that my age would be an asset. Apparently not.

I had a friend who had a commuter interview during the 1995-2001 period and found out that he wasn't hired because of age. Now, majors and nationals do hire people in their 40s. Promoters of the alleged pilot "shortage" make a big deal of that and won't let you forget it. What they don't tell you is, as Paul Harvey puts it, the rest of the story, which is the over-forty people who are hired already have many years of high-quality professional aviation experience, in corporate and/or the commuters, or are ex-military pilots. The best evidence I saw of that was the "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots" section in the old Career Pilot "magazine." It is the commuters who are the blatant practitioners of age discrimination, and the commuters are the next logical step if one fancies an airline career.

I'm pleased that it worked out for you. It does not, and will not, always work out for others.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Hey, Britpilot . . . .

I'm pleased that it worked out for you. It does not, and will not, always work out for others.

I was hired in '98, made Captain in '99. being a very young 43 now, I still see my company hiring older folks(when they were hiring) otherwise I would have no one to talk to. I have a friend in recruitment ( the company uses line pilots to conduct interviews) and I can assure that age is not an issue , we even had the oldest flying pilot in commercial aviation flying for us until last year, he now works in the training dept ( I belive Bob was 65, there was an article in Flying magazine about him) I also see a lot of folks from other airlines when I am on trips, belive it or not some are older than me, always makes me feel good. So a lot of us boomers can and do get hired in the airlines and a bit of luck helps too sometimes.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age

You were hired by someone before you turned 40. We're talking about getting on with a commuter airline after the age of 40. I was nearing 40 as I hit the mins for commuters and more than exceeded them after I turned 40. I had a few commuter interviews before I turned 40, but not one thereafter. By that time a recession toppled over by the Gulf War hit and hiring virtually stopped. The 20-somethings which I referenced above were being hired.

Once again, I submit that the vast majority of commuters find 40-year-old career-changers to be anathema. That something is wrong if you changed careers, and especially to aviation. That you're some kind of diletante. To be fair about it, it is extremely hard to find a job in any industry past 40. That, somehow, you're over the hill. Over 50 and you're poisonous.

Once again, the question turns on when you started in aviation. I'd submit that your friend Bob started in aviation when he was young and so did the other, older folks you see and encounter. I maintain that regional hiring departments are generally prejudiced against older pilots, and especially career changers.

You're absolutely right about luck. It helps to have it, and to hit a hiring gusher and not a dry hole. Once again, I'm pleased that you made it

 

[Timebuilder]

Much has been written recently about "affimative action" or, if you prefer, reverse discrimination.

I believe it is Ward Connerly, a black man, who wrote very eloquently in the recent past about how favoritism in hiring for special groups does more harm to those who are hired than anyone else. Those employees become tagged as "having the job because we needed a certain type of employee" instead of "hired because they were the best we could find".

That would be an awful stigma to carry.

 

[bobbysamd]

Reverse discrimination

Take a look at Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265 (1978). This is the landmark Supreme Court case that struck down reverse discrimination.

http://oyez.nwu.edu/cases/cases.cgi...ow&case_id=324.

Click the link and then click the FindLaw Written Opinions of the Court link.

It's worth your time to read this case if you have strong feelings about reverse discrimination.

 

[cherokee]

Tried the URL for the reverse discrimination but it didn't work. Can you provide a link that works.
Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

Bakke link

Try this one:

http://oyez.nwu.edu/cases/cases.cgi?command=show&case_id=324


I tried it twice after pasting it and got it. Try cutting and pasting it, or just run a search on Alan Bakke. Hope that helps.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Age

You were hired by someone before you turned 40. We're talking about getting on with a commuter airline after the age of 40. I was nearing 40 as I hit the mins for commuters and more than exceeded them after I turned 40. I had a few commuter interviews before I turned 40, but not one thereafter. By that time a recession toppled over by the Gulf War hit and hiring virtually stopped. The 20-somethings which I referenced above were being hired.

Once again, I submit that the vast majority of commuters find 40-year-old career-changers to be anathema. That something is wrong if you changed careers, and especially to aviation. That you're some kind of diletante. To be fair about it, it is extremely hard to find a job in any industry past 40. That, somehow, you're over the hill. Over 50 and you're poisonous.

Once again, the question turns on when you started in aviation. I'd submit that your friend Bob started in aviation when he was young and so did the other, older folks you see and encounter. I maintain that regional hiring departments are generally prejudiced against older pilots, and especially career changers.

You're absolutely right about luck. It helps to have it, and to hit a hiring gusher and not a dry hole. Once again, I'm pleased that you made it

Yeah I was hired two months before I turned 40, and Bob was also hired post 40. I still belive that you are wrong in your statements hiring older pilots in the National airlines. (we are trying to lose the stigma of commuter) The crews that I was refering to that I meet on the road were hired older as are some of the folks at my airline that are junior to me. It is the interview that gets you hired.

 

[Caveman]

I was hired by a jet national at the ripe young age of 42 1/2. I was also offered jobs by another 121 carrier and by a jet freight outfit. The sum total of my aviation experience was 3 years of flight instructing and 12.3 hours of turbine time. I don't have a four year degree and I'm not a former military pilot. I got the impression during all the interviews that my age was a definite advantage for me. They all seemed to appreciate the 'maturity' I could bring to the job.

Granted this all happened in 1999-2000 when everyone was hiring. I don't know how it would have played out 5 years earlier. Nowadays, with the exact same quals I doubt that I could even land a decent job. Well qualified prior to 9/11 could mean being at the bottom of the resume pile today. I'm very grateful for the job I have and to be working for one of the better companies. As I'm finding out, timing and seniority are EVERYTHING in this industry.

 

[Britpilot]

[. As I'm finding out, timing and seniority is EVERYTHING in this industry. [/B]

Amen...............

 

[Timebuilder]

I'll second that.

Who would have thought that I'd be watching ITT temps at startup only four months after being laid off from my flight instructing job?

I know it doesn't make sense. I sure am grateful, though!

 

[bobbysamd]

Life begins at 40 . . . sometimes

I'm glad that you guys did well. I know only from my experiences and those of others I've known. I was 40 and with an ATP and with good multi. Also, for what it was worth, I had a Citation type. I instructed in a respected program(s). My (much) younger colleagues with less time were getting hired by the commuters. I was not. Nothing unique, e.g. 135 time, set them apart from me. I had a friend with excellent quals, several ratings, and who is my age within a few days, who found out that he was rejected, flat out, because of age. This was only a few years ago, during the last hiring gusher.

You go figure it out. I did.

I'd also add that while the interview may get you hired you first have to get the interview. To get the interview you must send in a resume. Try to get the interview when even a commuter H.R. conehead can determine your (older) age from your resume.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Life begins at 40 . . . sometimes

. I had a friend with excellent quals, several ratings, and who is my age within a few days, and he found out that he was rejected, flat out, because of his age. This was only a few years ago, during the last hiring gusher.

You go figure it out. I did. [/B]

Perhaps there was something else that prevented yourself and friend from being hired. I know that the company who interviewed him would not reject him just because of age. That is not legal and if it did occur he has some recourse. As has been proven on these boards it is possible to get hired and have that second career post 40. It does take some persistance and a positive attitude. Why not try again? There are companys out there hiring now.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination cases

To believe a company would not hire someone strictly because of age is naive. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act et al makes age discrimination in hiring illegal. So, yeah, you have recourse, all right. Proving it is another matter.

Employment cases are extremely difficult because they are so dependent on evidence. The evidence would include such things as company documents, which, you would hope, would say that the applicant was rejected because of age. Of course, no one would be so stupid as to put something like that in writing. Someone might actually say it, but deny it later. Someone might have heard it said, but using it as evidence is difficult because it is hearsay. Try to get someone from the company to serve as your witness to your age discrimination claim. It's hard to gather proof in an employment case, and the proof has to meet a certain threshold and satisfy several requirements to make a prima facie case.

Then, if you do go forward, you have to jump through some major hoops, such as getting past federal and state EEOCs before getting at the company. Then, if you argue that you were discriminated against because of age, the company just has to say is it didn't interview you because it didn't feel that you were qualified, despite the fact that you met or exceeded every requirement it had, published or otherwise. It's your opinion against their's that you were qualified. It is all subjective. Why is it that you can take ten applicants who are virtual clones of each other who've applied for ten openings and one might be hired? An aviation company's defense in a hiring case will always be safety. And, the laws of many, if not most, states are stacked in favor of employers.

All this is how companies get away with age discrimination.

I do know persistence, my friend. I sent stuff to commuters for years, and to a couple, for many years. I am no better qualified now than I was then, and I am nine years older now. With so many better-qualified, and younger, pilots than me looking for work, trying again would be futile.

I do appreciate your comments. I'm sure you mean well. But, older career-changers need to be extremely realistic about their expectations in this business.

 

[ILS JNKY]

age

I, also changed professions a year or two ago,and i think that age will form a positive step for me in that I have at least 14 years to fly before having to retire.

Left sales and marketing about 1.5 years ago and glade I did, but do remember that we have to be on our game when interviewing and it is the time when you must sell why you are different than any one else, rember no bashing the competition.

Give a great presentation of your self and your ablities confirm and answer all question,. field all objections, and then close&close&close , stats show that 85% of all sales transactions, no one asks for the order.

Never been on a job interview where it was any different, it never is.

The only thing that changes is product knowledge, that is why we all attened the various flight schools locaited across the country.

 

[aero99]

Discrminiation does happen...everywhere. Bobby made the perfect point that to prove it is another matter.

Used to work for a company that would only hire female sales people. I was in management and the President of the company would "pre- interview" the apps before I received them. They were ALL women. I even asked him point blank and he admitted it. Right after he admitted to it (and he thought about what he said) he hired a male. He was fired within 4 months for non-standard work ethics. I interviewed the guy and he was not material for our company, but he was hired. Same thing happend about every 18 months.

After a few years with the company I wanted out of management and in sales. Guess what....never happened. I was more than qualified (but not overqual'ed) and was rejected everytime I brought it up.

It irritated me at first, and I thought I could sue and raise hell...but I had not one lick of proof and the company HAD hired males in the past at that point so it would do no good. I got over it and went to work for myself.

Discrimiation is a no win situation for everyone. Reverse Discrimination as mentioned above is the result of discrimination laws gone amuck and makes matters even worse.

 

[TurboS7]

I think that being a woman has all the advantages and no disadvantages, but once they are hired senority is what makes or breaks the situation.

 

[avbug]

Age. Gender. Race. Big deal. What about ugly people? When are we gonna get a break? Huh?

I don't hear anyone championing us short ugly balding types?

And what about halitosis-challenged folks? Just because we happen to have really bad breath, doesn't mean we're bad people?

Don't even get me started on athletes foot!

When do all these little life-challenges start to be a plus?

 

[Britpilot]

Age. Gender. Race. Big deal. What about ugly people? When are we gonna get a break? Huh?

I don't hear anyone championing us short ugly balding types?

And what about halitosis-challenged folks? Just because we happen to have really bad breath, doesn't mean we're bad people?

Don't even get me started on athletes foot!

When do all these little life-challenges start to be a plus?

I'm with you but what about being British? I hear every bad British joke there is out there and the funny thing is I am no longer British. So for the record we are superior and we do not have an accent, you do

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Age discrimination cases

To believe a company would not hire someone strictly because of age is naive.
.

No not naive, been around the block too many times for that. My point is, I do know that discrimination exists, I also know that it does not exist every where either in traditional or reverse varities.
To those of you who think that post 40 airline employment is not an option, I say yes it is with a little luck and hard work.

 

[Prop Trash]

originally posted by Britpilot
Before you all start slaming me, I am a minority who prefers fair play at all levels.

Nigel, just because your crashpad is located in a neighborhood full of "minorities," that doesn't make you one too! Seriously, I'm 14% native American, do you think that'll help me get on with United when they hire again?

 

[Britpilot]

Nigel, just because your crashpad is located in a neighborhood full of "minorities," that doesn't make you one too! Seriously, I'm 14% native American, do you think that'll help me get on with United when they hire again?

Of course it will help you, Runs With Bears, so will the mental health waiver on your medical. Glad you made it home safe, big apple here I come. See you out there,