Wonderful Read. We should LEARN and PROSPER

[pilotyip]

couldn't agree more

Yip-What WOULD you suggest a pilot union do when their boss won't grant raises? Shall they never ever strike? Why would a union give that leverage to mgmt-
Bottom line - management's industry wide have to take responsibility for how they lead, how they treat their employees, and what they pay- if they had spent more effort building trust and working with their pilots- they would be in a better position-
as it is, Spirit's mgmt chose other harsher routes- why would you not support pilots as they choose the appropriate response?
Remember, it's just business for pilots too- if Spirit mgmt wants to scuttle the airline over a reasonable pay raise - they are the only ones responsible for that-

I agree and your point is? What can be done in the reality of the current airline industry? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. Is is better to be unemployed and have a moral victory, or suck it up and continue to be paid. Me I prefer eating, others may feel different.

 

[AnimalTale]

I agree and your point is? What can be done in the reality of the current airline industry? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. Is is better to be unemployed and have a moral victory, or suck it up and continue to be paid. Me I prefer eating, others may feel different.

Respectfully,

I like to eat too but not while my CEO is living the jet-setter life style, while telling us the ship is going down. (I never said we should get paid CEO rates or bonuses, I should have become a CEO, if that were the case).

Your comment about, "suck it up and continue to get paid" is the reason why out industry is becoming what it is. A majority of pilots at MY AIRLINE have that attitude. For that very reason we are operating under a subpar contract, even our scheduling perks (once a great advantage) have gone down hill (mind you, perfectly legal within our CBA). Our mngmt knows that we would rather work under subpar rules than fight for any improvements, so they keep on pushing (little by little--Rightfully so) and we keep on taking (mouthful). Yet we think we are doing so well and our contract is a prize (blinded). In fact, OUR choice of airline partners speaks volumes (it was the most popular choice amongst our ranks)

Sometimes you need to sacrifice, sometimes you need to challenge and sometimes you need to be uncomfortable before you see any changes and improvements.

Pilotyip, nothing personal. I know you are wise but sometimes it is good to have a healthy conversation, with opposing views, about our industry.

CYA

 

[pilotyip]

Respectfully,

I like to eat too but not while my CEO is living the jet-setter life style, while telling us the ship is going down. (I never said we should get paid CEO rates or bonuses, I should have become a CEO, if that were the case).

Your comment about, "suck it up and continue to get paid" is the reason why out industry is becoming what it is. A majority of pilots at MY AIRLINE have that attitude. For that very reason we are operating under a subpar contract, even our scheduling perks (once a great advantage) have gone down hill (mind you, perfectly legal within our CBA). Our mngmt knows that we would rather work under subpar rules than fight for any improvements, so they keep on pushing (little by little--Rightfully so) and we keep on taking (mouthful). Yet we think we are doing so well and our contract is a prize (blinded). In fact, OUR choice of airline partners speaks volumes (it was the most popular choice amongst our ranks)

Sometimes you need to sacrifice, sometimes you need to challenge and sometimes you need to be uncomfortable before you see any changes and improvements.

Pilotyip, nothing personal. I know you are wise but sometimes it is good to have a healthy conversation, with opposing views, about our industry.

CYA

Thanks for a civil conversation, I have no answers, but I like to pose questions that may not have been considered to the heat of passion over a wrong. The ability to change seems stifling.

 

[waveflyer]

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

 

[thunderworm]

what bothers me is that if you change companies for one reason or the other you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale regardless of your experience. What CEOs or management have to do that?

 

[AnimalTale]

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

I agree.Look how funny it is..We have "cooks" now that will get mad if you dont call them "CHEF" before their names. I am amazed, watching Food Network, how Cooks, oops I mean CHEFS, respect themselves by bringing themselves "up"..

In fact, cooks get paid a lot more now (work longer) because of this shift..

CYA

 

[pilotyip]

Yes, go for it, But

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

But much like the look out saying to the Captain of the Titanic, "there might be ice bergs out there". Someone has to bring up the down side of potential actions.

what bothers me is that if you change companies for one reason or the other you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale regardless of your experience. What CEOs or management have to do that?

I think that has been discussed under a single national seniority list in another thread. That is where a pilot would never have to take a pay cut. If they lost their job, they could just cut in line in front pilots at other airlines based upon DOH. There would certainly be no down side to that would there.

 

[waveflyer]

Yip-That's only one way to skin a very real- and dare I say GENEROUS- seniority problem-

as for those icebergs- doesn't management have to worry about those icebergs as well? A strike, chaos or full, is a risk and will weaken your company- that affects everyone- hopefully union negotiator are fully educated on the status of the company and aren't asking for the death of the golden goose-
however, you seem to think that any pilot group will ever get raises without the threat of a strike? If mgmt knows we aren't truly willing to walk- they would not be doing their job if they granted the raises.

EVERY professional will never get paid their worth UNTIL they are willing to walk away.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip-That's only one way to skin a very real- and dare I say GENEROUS- seniority problem-EVERY professional will never get paid their worth UNTIL they are willing to walk away.

And in most professions if you don't like it, you walk away to a better job. Other professionals even have headhunters call them and say I can get you $50K more at ABC for solving their problems. This gets management’s attention when they can not retain professionals that make their company operate. They throw money at the problem to retain key people. Pilots could get management's attention by leaving their present jobs. But as I said before there is a down side to this, it is extremely difficult to match a pilot’s present salary in a new pilot job. Not many headhunters are calling pilots because their skills are interchangeable. Pilot’s pay is based upon seniority, not upon a unique skill, once you move beyond the minimum skills to hold the job.

 

[waveflyer]

I say that discounts, incredibly, the benefits experience provides an airline. Bean counter logic through and through.