Wonderful Read. We should LEARN and PROSPER

[becket]

A first year narrowbody FO in the middle east makes approximately 150kUSD/year.

Here's what I know about the middle east. A new hire Emirates wide body co-pilot earns about HALF of what you're suggesting.

Exactly which airlines pay what you claim? Care to offer any proof?

 

[pilotyip]

Man. That's one elaborate hoax then right? I mean really. You expect me to believe that the vast majority of airline managements are more concern.........employees and I can tell you it's a mother ********************er. If life were as easy as you're claiming it it is, all I have to do to get rich is stop paying well, hide enormous amounts of revenue, buy off the entire legal process and convince shareholders that it's actually in their best interest to flush their cash down the toilet just so I can show my employees who's boss.

This actually makes sense to you?

nice touch

 

[pilotyip]

Down to 1/3?

At some point we advocate for ourselves- this isn't a hobby for me Yip, whether it is for you or not

of course not by a 1/3, but the drop ridership in the spring of 08 started the mass layoffs in the industry and the cessation of hiring at SWA. Remember SWA makes money on the 1 cheap seat per leg.

 

[G4dude]

hmmm

It seems to me the death knell of any airline is the phrase "Industry Leading Contract." How can United compete while paying the world's most highly paid pilots? Just curious.

 

[maru657]

Ahhh, United Airlines in 1985. Just before they royally screwed the Frontier Pilots.

 

[AnimalTale]

Man. That's one elaborate hoax then right? I mean really. You expect me to believe that the vast majority of airline managements are more concerned with low pilot wages than they are with increasing shareholder value? Do you realize that the entire US Industry has lost something in the order of 20 Billion dollars over the last 9 years? You're telling me that this FACT is actually just another smoke screen so that management can just keep paying the pilots less Because....Because they just WANT to pay low wages so badly?

Am I to believe that the US Bankruptcy courts are also so filled with "pilot" specific hatred that they routinely look the other way and approve of multi-national, multi-billion dollar companies declaring bankruptcy and stiffing manufacturers, suppliers and ever OTHER employee group as well as vaporizing billions of dollars of shareholder value? The BK courts approve of all of this because they "hate pilots too"? Shareholders are on board with this movement to screw pilots as well? They'd rather lose all of their invested money than see a pilot Earn what he thought he was worth? You're telling me that CEOs and Judges would rather violate the law and go to prison for abusing BK laws and ignoring Sarbanes/Oxley than pay a pilot more money?

Are you out of your Effing mind?! There is no grand conspiracy. The money does not exist. Pilots will NEVER be paid as well as the CEO. They never have been. EVER. I know it's comfortable to believe that it takes the magical, rarefied "right stuff" to fly a jet but let's be honest. It's not nuclear science. What profession that existed 30 years ago, is making more money today in real dollars than they did back in the day? Doctors...No way. Lawyers...a very few. Virtually all brick and mortar jobs have gradually been devalued over the years. The new way to make a ******************** ton of money is in computers, not V1 Cuts.

I agree. It sucks. I'd much rather be buying myself a new cadillac every month but it's just not true anymore. What kind of narcissism exists to convince oneself that the entire world is against them earning more money? How does one come to the conclusion that if a CEO can get a 100k bonus, then that MUST mean there is another 200 million dollars around to pay the pilots? I own a small business. I have employees and I can tell you it's a mother ********************er. If life were as easy as you're claiming it it is, all I have to do to get rich is stop paying well, hide enormous amounts of revenue, buy off the entire legal process and convince shareholders that it's actually in their best interest to flush their cash down the toilet just so I can show my employees who's boss.

This actually makes sense to you?

Please re-read what I posted. DO it without emotion and re-read it carefully. Please dont be naive either.

You, my friend, are already thinking you are worthless. It is a great science to fly airplanes. It is a great ordeal to be a pilot. Never ever discount the fact that flying airplanes is a very demanding job.<----You do need the "right stuff" and proper pay and benefits...

You are a professional and because of that you have learned to make this job easier. Your experience has done that for you. Dont sell yourself short.

I understand, you are a capitalist. I am too. That is why, we as pilots, collectively, deserve so much better.

CYA

 

[AnimalTale]

nice touch

A little too naive for my taste. But, you seem to be happy at where you are at. Enjoy.

Your company must love your hard work and determination. You give them a great discount too, from what I hear.

But then again, you are doing what you love to do and you never went to college.

To me it seems like you made it to the "BIG SHOW!" Good job.

CYA

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Shoot, I know times are tough. Times are tight and have been for a while. I don't want a big raise. I'll settle for the same % increases in pay/bonus that airline CEO's and managers have gotten over the last ten years. Anybody have that info?

 

[pilotyip]

A little too naive for my taste. But, you seem to be happy at where you are at. Enjoy.

At my age getting out of bed everyday with a current medical is happiness

Your company must love your hard work and determination. You give them a great discount too, from what I hear.

Salary you know few people make per hour what I do for flying an airplane

But then again, you are doing what you love to do and you never went to college.

It has been an adventure, and I would change little, BTW A BS Mich State and MA Cent Mich is my college exposure, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane

To me it seems like you made it to the "BIG SHOW!" Good job.

CYA

Thanks as I said it has been an adventure. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do.

 

[AnimalTale]

At my age getting out of bed everyday with a current medical is happiness

Salary you know few people make per hour what I do for flying an airplane

It has been an adventure, and I would change little, BTW A BS Mich State and MA Cent Mich is my college exposure, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane

Thanks as I said it has been an adventure. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do.

Excellent, seems like you could teach E. Gann a few things! For some reason, I think you posted you did not go to college.

I truly think we, as pilots, need to demand better pay and conditions, no matter how much we love flying airplanes. The pilot hourly rate may be higher than the rest of the working industry, but we (pilots) dont get paid our hourly rate on an overnight or layover. So basically, our hourly rate makes our pay "look" higher than the rest but in essence it is lower.

Thanks for your service.

CYA

 

[Dan Roman]

Shoot, I know times are tough. Times are tight and have been for a while. I don't want a big raise. I'll settle for the same % increases in pay/bonus that airline CEO's and managers have gotten over the last ten years. Anybody have that info?

Excellent post. The gap between a few at the top and the people doing the work is getting greater and greater in this country. It's immoral and wrong and it's one of Americas greatest problems.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

the modern business model

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model.

Suppressing workers’ wages is nothing new - it’s been part of a decades-old (if not a centuries-old) practice, including those workers that have had to train or test for a specialized license. Placing all the blame on Deregulation doesn’t work much anymore as it was passed into law 32 years ago. Even the Bankruptcy laws haven’t changed much since 1978 - although I believe bankruptcy is used now as a mainstream and accepted business option rather than as a last resort!

One stark difference between now and say 50 years ago is the Walmart mentality. The marketing departments have done a great job convincing the public that cheaper is always better. And they’ve done this by promoting the service-less or self-serve concept.

And management has propagated this operation on its own (remaining) employees.

The problem is: We’ve believed it.

There’s been very little managerial innovation in the last 20 years. So
how can an airline offer a stagnant product for less revenue? The money to has to come from somewhere and in the last 15 to 20 years, it’s come from the employees.

(One simple question: All the money that routinely used to be invested in employee pensions… where’s it going now?)

Management has convinced us all that their problems are our problems, pleading, “We didn’t anticipate increasing oil prices. How did health care costs get so high? We had no idea a recession could occur. We have to remain competitive against Airline X! We didn’t anticipate a terrorist/hijack attack. If we don’t get concessions from you, into Bankruptcy we go! We have to pay these bonuses in order to keep these highly-sought-after managers! These manager bonuses were contracted before we entered Bankruptcy.”

“And, oh by the way, now you can see why we can’t afford to pay you what you believe you’re worth.”

Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

Admittedly, I don’t work for UA or CO. But I think you ought to keep some of Dubinsky’s own words: “How far north? The North #@%* Star!”

 

[Ocity]

......

 

[pilotyip]

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model. .................Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

no intent to flame here, but if pilots have the answers, why not go into management and make the industry better. I tried and had some successes..

Old Post but fits.
This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired and there pay packages are discusting. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[waveflyer]

The problem isn't just high or low wages- Swa pays well and treats us well- but it pays off for them in a leaner happier workforce- at my alpa carrier I got my hand slapped for bringing up a stroller to a young Mom- and it was 'beneath us' to help straighten up the back-
that said I agree 1000% w/ animal tail- what we do is very special- and with no pilots in the pipeline bc wages suck so bad- I predict the next 10 years will see huge gains for us-and as crappy as the last 10 were - while I got to see every c-student business major outearn me- I won't feel the least bit bad about it-

 

[UALRATT]

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model.

Suppressing workers’ wages is nothing new - it’s been part of a decades-old (if not a centuries-old) practice, including those workers that have had to train or test for a specialized license. Placing all the blame on Deregulation doesn’t work much anymore as it was passed into law 32 years ago. Even the Bankruptcy laws haven’t changed much since 1978 - although I believe bankruptcy is used now as a mainstream and accepted business option rather than as a last resort!

One stark difference between now and say 50 years ago is the Walmart mentality. The marketing departments have done a great job convincing the public that cheaper is always better. And they’ve done this by promoting the service-less or self-serve concept.

And management has propagated this operation on its own (remaining) employees.

The problem is: We’ve believed it.

There’s been very little managerial innovation in the last 20 years. So
how can an airline offer a stagnant product for less revenue? The money to has to come from somewhere and in the last 15 to 20 years, it’s come from the employees.

(One simple question: All the money that routinely used to be invested in employee pensions… where’s it going now?)

Management has convinced us all that their problems are our problems, pleading, “We didn’t anticipate increasing oil prices. How did health care costs get so high? We had no idea a recession could occur. We have to remain competitive against Airline X! We didn’t anticipate a terrorist/hijack attack. If we don’t get concessions from you, into Bankruptcy we go! We have to pay these bonuses in order to keep these highly-sought-after managers! These manager bonuses were contracted before we entered Bankruptcy.”

“And, oh by the way, now you can see why we can’t afford to pay you what you believe you’re worth.”

Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

Admittedly, I don’t work for UA or CO. But I think you ought to keep some of Dubinsky’s own words: “How far north? The North #@%* Star!”

I love it man!! I hate typing so thanks for doing so...

 

[waveflyer]

Yip- you've already said that argument- I refuted it with the net affects of that kind of leadership- you didn't have an answer then- so can you please stop pretending that these management bonuses are ACTUALLY as cheap as you'd like to believe. The loss of productivity as morale spikes downward can't be ignored.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip- you've already said that argument- I refuted it with the net affects of that kind of leadership- you didn't have an answer then- so can you please stop pretending that these management bonuses are ACTUALLY as cheap as you'd like to believe. The loss of productivity as morale spikes downward can't be ignored.

I never said there was not leadership failure for taking these bonuses. They are just a fact of life that everyones bitches about, but no one has a solution to fix the problem. Is it worth shutting down the airline, possible loss of jobs to prove a point. That is my only contention, I don't endorse.

 

[machophil]

Excellent post. The gap between a few at the top and the people doing the work is getting greater and greater in this country. It's immoral and wrong and it's one of Americas greatest problems.

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 1980: 40x's greater

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 2008: 319x's greater

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/

 

[waveflyer]

Yip-What WOULD you suggest a pilot union do when their boss won't grant raises? Shall they never ever strike? Why would a union give that leverage to mgmt-
Bottom line - management's industry wide have to take responsibility for how they lead, how they treat their employees, and what they pay- if they had spent more effort building trust and working with their pilots- they would be in a better position-
as it is, Spirit's mgmt chose other harsher routes- why would you not support pilots as they choose the appropriate response?
Remember, it's just business for pilots too- if Spirit mgmt wants to scuttle the airline over a reasonable pay raise - they are the only ones responsible for that-