Wonderful Read. We should LEARN and PROSPER

[waveflyer]

and ridership went down

Down to 1/3?

At some point we advocate for ourselves- this isn't a hobby for me Yip, whether it is for you or not

 

[jonjuan]

We have become a commodity, unfortunately, and commodities get cheaper over time.

Gold is a commodity. Gold was $300 in 1985. It's now over $1,200.

 

[Green]

Obviously there is tremendous room for improvement in the UAL contract. However, this guy needs to understand that times have changed. The glory days are over, cheap airfare isn't going to go away...ever. Sure Dubinsky got them a great contract after their summer of carnage in 2000. Delta had incredible payrates as well. Both went BK. I'd love to be naive enough to believe that there is this hidden wellspring of endless cash that pilots can tap into and live like guys back in the 60s did...when an airline pilot was a pseudo celebrity making 10+ times what the average american made.

It just isn't so. Facts are Facts. That's not to say that UAL/CAL can't get an industry leading contract. I hope they do. But to pull out 1991 payrates, adjust them for inflation and then demand that amount of money will get you exactly where AMR is. Nowhere. The game has changed and there is no going back in time. Even if all Airline Pilots were 100% unified and demanded 300+ dollars an hour, you can bet Management with the full consent of the Govt. would simply change the rules and replace us with Low cost labor. The game is fundamentally different than it was even 20 years ago. We went from being valued and even admired by managements to being marginalized if not outright despised and vice versa. It's too bad but that's the reality I see.

I believe you are wrong Becket. The US has some of the cheapest pilots in aviation. A first year narrowbody FO in the middle east makes approximately 150kUSD/year. We have pilots from all over the world here and none of the other guys think this is an unusually high salary. Most came here becuase they were displaced from previous jobs. We've let ourselves be negotiated down to the lower middle class in terms of US pilot salaries. DAL and UAL payrates are not what put them in BK post 9-11. If you truly believe that then you should do some research on what actually occurred. The UAL losses far exceeded their entire payroll. The pilots could have worked for free starting 9/12 and they still would have gone into Ch11.

Question for you. How can management survive oil going from 50/barrel to 120/barrel yet they can't afford a payraise? If pilot salaries were as important as you claim to the bottom line then US Airways would be dominating the industry and SWA would be struggling to stay afloat. The highest paying airlines actually seem to be the strongest. How do you explain that?

 

[AnimalTale]

I believe you are wrong Becket. The US has some of the cheapest pilots in aviation. A first year narrowbody FO in the middle east makes approximately 150kUSD/year. We have pilots from all over the world here and none of the other guys think this is an unusually high salary. Most came here becuase they were displaced from previous jobs. We've let ourselves be negotiated down to the lower middle class in terms of US pilot salaries. DAL and UAL payrates are not what put them in BK post 9-11. If you truly believe that then you should do some research on what actually occurred. The UAL losses far exceeded their entire payroll. The pilots could have worked for free starting 9/12 and they still would have gone into Ch11.

Question for you. How can management survive oil going from 50/barrel to 120/barrel yet they can't afford a payraise? If pilot salaries were as important as you claim to the bottom line then US Airways would be dominating the industry and SWA would be struggling to stay afloat. The highest paying airlines actually seem to be the strongest. How do you explain that?

+1-------> BINGO

MNGMT has done a great job in demoralizing us. We actually think we are underworked and overpaid. Believe me, I have flown with some pilots that think their job is "cake" and they are getting overpaid! How sad.

CYA

 

[becket]

There are ways to get back. Nothings changed, it has always been this way. MNGMT takes, pilots give.

Have you noticed any difference in mngmt pay and bonuses? Probably not as much a cut as the pilots, right?

Mngnmt has done a nice job "fooling" almost every pilot into believing you are worthless. (of course they have had help with: Terrorism, Market collapse, Hurricanes, floods, labor unrest, country unrest, force majeure, oil, etc, fill in the blanK)

Do u get it???? There will always be an excuse not to pay you or give you a good contract.

I believe we are a commodity. We always have been, except now more people can be exposed to this commodity. Remember back in the 80's-90s??? High interest rates, oil problems, terrorism, deregulation, catastrophes? Somehow, somewhere, the aircraft loads where only 50-60%, yet pilots were making a ton of money and some airlines, too, where prospering.

Airline flying will always be needed for the foreseeable future. People are going to need to travel. Look at SWA pilots; No feeder, no concessions and HIgh PAY! <--------It seems to always work for them.

Pay never is or was an issue. Its just a way for mngmt to control the ranks and get a deep discount for the cost of doing business.

MNGMT101, any text book can explain the roles of Mngmt and business dealings! Read it. Mngmt is not to blame. I would do the same thing. We, as pilots, are to blame for this mess. We have become blind and our confidence has dropped. We believe and dont question anything.

THing will change. It is the cycle.

CYA

Man. That's one elaborate hoax then right? I mean really. You expect me to believe that the vast majority of airline managements are more concerned with low pilot wages than they are with increasing shareholder value? Do you realize that the entire US Industry has lost something in the order of 20 Billion dollars over the last 9 years? You're telling me that this FACT is actually just another smoke screen so that management can just keep paying the pilots less Because....Because they just WANT to pay low wages so badly?

Am I to believe that the US Bankruptcy courts are also so filled with "pilot" specific hatred that they routinely look the other way and approve of multi-national, multi-billion dollar companies declaring bankruptcy and stiffing manufacturers, suppliers and ever OTHER employee group as well as vaporizing billions of dollars of shareholder value? The BK courts approve of all of this because they "hate pilots too"? Shareholders are on board with this movement to screw pilots as well? They'd rather lose all of their invested money than see a pilot Earn what he thought he was worth? You're telling me that CEOs and Judges would rather violate the law and go to prison for abusing BK laws and ignoring Sarbanes/Oxley than pay a pilot more money?

Are you out of your Effing mind?! There is no grand conspiracy. The money does not exist. Pilots will NEVER be paid as well as the CEO. They never have been. EVER. I know it's comfortable to believe that it takes the magical, rarefied "right stuff" to fly a jet but let's be honest. It's not nuclear science. What profession that existed 30 years ago, is making more money today in real dollars than they did back in the day? Doctors...No way. Lawyers...a very few. Virtually all brick and mortar jobs have gradually been devalued over the years. The new way to make a ******************** ton of money is in computers, not V1 Cuts.

I agree. It sucks. I'd much rather be buying myself a new cadillac every month but it's just not true anymore. What kind of narcissism exists to convince oneself that the entire world is against them earning more money? How does one come to the conclusion that if a CEO can get a 100k bonus, then that MUST mean there is another 200 million dollars around to pay the pilots? I own a small business. I have employees and I can tell you it's a mother ********************er. If life were as easy as you're claiming it it is, all I have to do to get rich is stop paying well, hide enormous amounts of revenue, buy off the entire legal process and convince shareholders that it's actually in their best interest to flush their cash down the toilet just so I can show my employees who's boss.

This actually makes sense to you?

 

[becket]

A first year narrowbody FO in the middle east makes approximately 150kUSD/year.

Here's what I know about the middle east. A new hire Emirates wide body co-pilot earns about HALF of what you're suggesting.

Exactly which airlines pay what you claim? Care to offer any proof?

 

[pilotyip]

Man. That's one elaborate hoax then right? I mean really. You expect me to believe that the vast majority of airline managements are more concern.........employees and I can tell you it's a mother ********************er. If life were as easy as you're claiming it it is, all I have to do to get rich is stop paying well, hide enormous amounts of revenue, buy off the entire legal process and convince shareholders that it's actually in their best interest to flush their cash down the toilet just so I can show my employees who's boss.

This actually makes sense to you?

nice touch

 

[pilotyip]

Down to 1/3?

At some point we advocate for ourselves- this isn't a hobby for me Yip, whether it is for you or not

of course not by a 1/3, but the drop ridership in the spring of 08 started the mass layoffs in the industry and the cessation of hiring at SWA. Remember SWA makes money on the 1 cheap seat per leg.

 

[G4dude]

hmmm

It seems to me the death knell of any airline is the phrase "Industry Leading Contract." How can United compete while paying the world's most highly paid pilots? Just curious.

 

[maru657]

Ahhh, United Airlines in 1985. Just before they royally screwed the Frontier Pilots.

 

[AnimalTale]

Man. That's one elaborate hoax then right? I mean really. You expect me to believe that the vast majority of airline managements are more concerned with low pilot wages than they are with increasing shareholder value? Do you realize that the entire US Industry has lost something in the order of 20 Billion dollars over the last 9 years? You're telling me that this FACT is actually just another smoke screen so that management can just keep paying the pilots less Because....Because they just WANT to pay low wages so badly?

Am I to believe that the US Bankruptcy courts are also so filled with "pilot" specific hatred that they routinely look the other way and approve of multi-national, multi-billion dollar companies declaring bankruptcy and stiffing manufacturers, suppliers and ever OTHER employee group as well as vaporizing billions of dollars of shareholder value? The BK courts approve of all of this because they "hate pilots too"? Shareholders are on board with this movement to screw pilots as well? They'd rather lose all of their invested money than see a pilot Earn what he thought he was worth? You're telling me that CEOs and Judges would rather violate the law and go to prison for abusing BK laws and ignoring Sarbanes/Oxley than pay a pilot more money?

Are you out of your Effing mind?! There is no grand conspiracy. The money does not exist. Pilots will NEVER be paid as well as the CEO. They never have been. EVER. I know it's comfortable to believe that it takes the magical, rarefied "right stuff" to fly a jet but let's be honest. It's not nuclear science. What profession that existed 30 years ago, is making more money today in real dollars than they did back in the day? Doctors...No way. Lawyers...a very few. Virtually all brick and mortar jobs have gradually been devalued over the years. The new way to make a ******************** ton of money is in computers, not V1 Cuts.

I agree. It sucks. I'd much rather be buying myself a new cadillac every month but it's just not true anymore. What kind of narcissism exists to convince oneself that the entire world is against them earning more money? How does one come to the conclusion that if a CEO can get a 100k bonus, then that MUST mean there is another 200 million dollars around to pay the pilots? I own a small business. I have employees and I can tell you it's a mother ********************er. If life were as easy as you're claiming it it is, all I have to do to get rich is stop paying well, hide enormous amounts of revenue, buy off the entire legal process and convince shareholders that it's actually in their best interest to flush their cash down the toilet just so I can show my employees who's boss.

This actually makes sense to you?

Please re-read what I posted. DO it without emotion and re-read it carefully. Please dont be naive either.

You, my friend, are already thinking you are worthless. It is a great science to fly airplanes. It is a great ordeal to be a pilot. Never ever discount the fact that flying airplanes is a very demanding job.<----You do need the "right stuff" and proper pay and benefits...

You are a professional and because of that you have learned to make this job easier. Your experience has done that for you. Dont sell yourself short.

I understand, you are a capitalist. I am too. That is why, we as pilots, collectively, deserve so much better.

CYA

 

[AnimalTale]

nice touch

A little too naive for my taste. But, you seem to be happy at where you are at. Enjoy.

Your company must love your hard work and determination. You give them a great discount too, from what I hear.

But then again, you are doing what you love to do and you never went to college.

To me it seems like you made it to the "BIG SHOW!" Good job.

CYA

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Shoot, I know times are tough. Times are tight and have been for a while. I don't want a big raise. I'll settle for the same % increases in pay/bonus that airline CEO's and managers have gotten over the last ten years. Anybody have that info?

 

[pilotyip]

A little too naive for my taste. But, you seem to be happy at where you are at. Enjoy.

At my age getting out of bed everyday with a current medical is happiness

Your company must love your hard work and determination. You give them a great discount too, from what I hear.

Salary you know few people make per hour what I do for flying an airplane

But then again, you are doing what you love to do and you never went to college.

It has been an adventure, and I would change little, BTW A BS Mich State and MA Cent Mich is my college exposure, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane

To me it seems like you made it to the "BIG SHOW!" Good job.

CYA

Thanks as I said it has been an adventure. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do.

 

[AnimalTale]

At my age getting out of bed everyday with a current medical is happiness

Salary you know few people make per hour what I do for flying an airplane

It has been an adventure, and I would change little, BTW A BS Mich State and MA Cent Mich is my college exposure, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane

Thanks as I said it has been an adventure. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do.

Excellent, seems like you could teach E. Gann a few things! For some reason, I think you posted you did not go to college.

I truly think we, as pilots, need to demand better pay and conditions, no matter how much we love flying airplanes. The pilot hourly rate may be higher than the rest of the working industry, but we (pilots) dont get paid our hourly rate on an overnight or layover. So basically, our hourly rate makes our pay "look" higher than the rest but in essence it is lower.

Thanks for your service.

CYA