Wonderful Read. We should LEARN and PROSPER

[Dan Roman]

Shoot, I know times are tough. Times are tight and have been for a while. I don't want a big raise. I'll settle for the same % increases in pay/bonus that airline CEO's and managers have gotten over the last ten years. Anybody have that info?

Excellent post. The gap between a few at the top and the people doing the work is getting greater and greater in this country. It's immoral and wrong and it's one of Americas greatest problems.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

the modern business model

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model.

Suppressing workers’ wages is nothing new - it’s been part of a decades-old (if not a centuries-old) practice, including those workers that have had to train or test for a specialized license. Placing all the blame on Deregulation doesn’t work much anymore as it was passed into law 32 years ago. Even the Bankruptcy laws haven’t changed much since 1978 - although I believe bankruptcy is used now as a mainstream and accepted business option rather than as a last resort!

One stark difference between now and say 50 years ago is the Walmart mentality. The marketing departments have done a great job convincing the public that cheaper is always better. And they’ve done this by promoting the service-less or self-serve concept.

And management has propagated this operation on its own (remaining) employees.

The problem is: We’ve believed it.

There’s been very little managerial innovation in the last 20 years. So
how can an airline offer a stagnant product for less revenue? The money to has to come from somewhere and in the last 15 to 20 years, it’s come from the employees.

(One simple question: All the money that routinely used to be invested in employee pensions… where’s it going now?)

Management has convinced us all that their problems are our problems, pleading, “We didn’t anticipate increasing oil prices. How did health care costs get so high? We had no idea a recession could occur. We have to remain competitive against Airline X! We didn’t anticipate a terrorist/hijack attack. If we don’t get concessions from you, into Bankruptcy we go! We have to pay these bonuses in order to keep these highly-sought-after managers! These manager bonuses were contracted before we entered Bankruptcy.”

“And, oh by the way, now you can see why we can’t afford to pay you what you believe you’re worth.”

Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

Admittedly, I don’t work for UA or CO. But I think you ought to keep some of Dubinsky’s own words: “How far north? The North #@%* Star!”

 

[Ocity]

......

 

[pilotyip]

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model. .................Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

no intent to flame here, but if pilots have the answers, why not go into management and make the industry better. I tried and had some successes..

Old Post but fits.
This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired and there pay packages are discusting. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[waveflyer]

The problem isn't just high or low wages- Swa pays well and treats us well- but it pays off for them in a leaner happier workforce- at my alpa carrier I got my hand slapped for bringing up a stroller to a young Mom- and it was 'beneath us' to help straighten up the back-
that said I agree 1000% w/ animal tail- what we do is very special- and with no pilots in the pipeline bc wages suck so bad- I predict the next 10 years will see huge gains for us-and as crappy as the last 10 were - while I got to see every c-student business major outearn me- I won't feel the least bit bad about it-

 

[UALRATT]

An “elaborate hoax”? Maybe it’s just the modern business model.

Suppressing workers’ wages is nothing new - it’s been part of a decades-old (if not a centuries-old) practice, including those workers that have had to train or test for a specialized license. Placing all the blame on Deregulation doesn’t work much anymore as it was passed into law 32 years ago. Even the Bankruptcy laws haven’t changed much since 1978 - although I believe bankruptcy is used now as a mainstream and accepted business option rather than as a last resort!

One stark difference between now and say 50 years ago is the Walmart mentality. The marketing departments have done a great job convincing the public that cheaper is always better. And they’ve done this by promoting the service-less or self-serve concept.

And management has propagated this operation on its own (remaining) employees.

The problem is: We’ve believed it.

There’s been very little managerial innovation in the last 20 years. So
how can an airline offer a stagnant product for less revenue? The money to has to come from somewhere and in the last 15 to 20 years, it’s come from the employees.

(One simple question: All the money that routinely used to be invested in employee pensions… where’s it going now?)

Management has convinced us all that their problems are our problems, pleading, “We didn’t anticipate increasing oil prices. How did health care costs get so high? We had no idea a recession could occur. We have to remain competitive against Airline X! We didn’t anticipate a terrorist/hijack attack. If we don’t get concessions from you, into Bankruptcy we go! We have to pay these bonuses in order to keep these highly-sought-after managers! These manager bonuses were contracted before we entered Bankruptcy.”

“And, oh by the way, now you can see why we can’t afford to pay you what you believe you’re worth.”

Managerial problems are for managers to solve, not for the pilots. As a Professional Pilot, you only have three responsibilities: Fly the plane as safely, as expeditiously, and as professionally as possible. Stick together. And negotiate the best contract possible for doing said job.

Admittedly, I don’t work for UA or CO. But I think you ought to keep some of Dubinsky’s own words: “How far north? The North #@%* Star!”

I love it man!! I hate typing so thanks for doing so...

 

[waveflyer]

Yip- you've already said that argument- I refuted it with the net affects of that kind of leadership- you didn't have an answer then- so can you please stop pretending that these management bonuses are ACTUALLY as cheap as you'd like to believe. The loss of productivity as morale spikes downward can't be ignored.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip- you've already said that argument- I refuted it with the net affects of that kind of leadership- you didn't have an answer then- so can you please stop pretending that these management bonuses are ACTUALLY as cheap as you'd like to believe. The loss of productivity as morale spikes downward can't be ignored.

I never said there was not leadership failure for taking these bonuses. They are just a fact of life that everyones bitches about, but no one has a solution to fix the problem. Is it worth shutting down the airline, possible loss of jobs to prove a point. That is my only contention, I don't endorse.

 

[machophil]

Excellent post. The gap between a few at the top and the people doing the work is getting greater and greater in this country. It's immoral and wrong and it's one of Americas greatest problems.

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 1980: 40x's greater

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 2008: 319x's greater

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/

 

[waveflyer]

Yip-What WOULD you suggest a pilot union do when their boss won't grant raises? Shall they never ever strike? Why would a union give that leverage to mgmt-
Bottom line - management's industry wide have to take responsibility for how they lead, how they treat their employees, and what they pay- if they had spent more effort building trust and working with their pilots- they would be in a better position-
as it is, Spirit's mgmt chose other harsher routes- why would you not support pilots as they choose the appropriate response?
Remember, it's just business for pilots too- if Spirit mgmt wants to scuttle the airline over a reasonable pay raise - they are the only ones responsible for that-

 

[pilotyip]

couldn't agree more

Yip-What WOULD you suggest a pilot union do when their boss won't grant raises? Shall they never ever strike? Why would a union give that leverage to mgmt-
Bottom line - management's industry wide have to take responsibility for how they lead, how they treat their employees, and what they pay- if they had spent more effort building trust and working with their pilots- they would be in a better position-
as it is, Spirit's mgmt chose other harsher routes- why would you not support pilots as they choose the appropriate response?
Remember, it's just business for pilots too- if Spirit mgmt wants to scuttle the airline over a reasonable pay raise - they are the only ones responsible for that-

I agree and your point is? What can be done in the reality of the current airline industry? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. Is is better to be unemployed and have a moral victory, or suck it up and continue to be paid. Me I prefer eating, others may feel different.

 

[AnimalTale]

I agree and your point is? What can be done in the reality of the current airline industry? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. Is is better to be unemployed and have a moral victory, or suck it up and continue to be paid. Me I prefer eating, others may feel different.

Respectfully,

I like to eat too but not while my CEO is living the jet-setter life style, while telling us the ship is going down. (I never said we should get paid CEO rates or bonuses, I should have become a CEO, if that were the case).

Your comment about, "suck it up and continue to get paid" is the reason why out industry is becoming what it is. A majority of pilots at MY AIRLINE have that attitude. For that very reason we are operating under a subpar contract, even our scheduling perks (once a great advantage) have gone down hill (mind you, perfectly legal within our CBA). Our mngmt knows that we would rather work under subpar rules than fight for any improvements, so they keep on pushing (little by little--Rightfully so) and we keep on taking (mouthful). Yet we think we are doing so well and our contract is a prize (blinded). In fact, OUR choice of airline partners speaks volumes (it was the most popular choice amongst our ranks)

Sometimes you need to sacrifice, sometimes you need to challenge and sometimes you need to be uncomfortable before you see any changes and improvements.

Pilotyip, nothing personal. I know you are wise but sometimes it is good to have a healthy conversation, with opposing views, about our industry.

CYA

 

[pilotyip]

Respectfully,

I like to eat too but not while my CEO is living the jet-setter life style, while telling us the ship is going down. (I never said we should get paid CEO rates or bonuses, I should have become a CEO, if that were the case).

Your comment about, "suck it up and continue to get paid" is the reason why out industry is becoming what it is. A majority of pilots at MY AIRLINE have that attitude. For that very reason we are operating under a subpar contract, even our scheduling perks (once a great advantage) have gone down hill (mind you, perfectly legal within our CBA). Our mngmt knows that we would rather work under subpar rules than fight for any improvements, so they keep on pushing (little by little--Rightfully so) and we keep on taking (mouthful). Yet we think we are doing so well and our contract is a prize (blinded). In fact, OUR choice of airline partners speaks volumes (it was the most popular choice amongst our ranks)

Sometimes you need to sacrifice, sometimes you need to challenge and sometimes you need to be uncomfortable before you see any changes and improvements.

Pilotyip, nothing personal. I know you are wise but sometimes it is good to have a healthy conversation, with opposing views, about our industry.

CYA

Thanks for a civil conversation, I have no answers, but I like to pose questions that may not have been considered to the heat of passion over a wrong. The ability to change seems stifling.

 

[waveflyer]

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

 

[thunderworm]

what bothers me is that if you change companies for one reason or the other you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale regardless of your experience. What CEOs or management have to do that?

 

[AnimalTale]

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

I agree.Look how funny it is..We have "cooks" now that will get mad if you dont call them "CHEF" before their names. I am amazed, watching Food Network, how Cooks, oops I mean CHEFS, respect themselves by bringing themselves "up"..

In fact, cooks get paid a lot more now (work longer) because of this shift..

CYA

 

[pilotyip]

Yes, go for it, But

Thanks Yip- but management has high powered, expensive attorneys that advocate their position. We dont need to help them do that. I advocate from the pilot's perspective. We're the only ones who will do that.

But much like the look out saying to the Captain of the Titanic, "there might be ice bergs out there". Someone has to bring up the down side of potential actions.

what bothers me is that if you change companies for one reason or the other you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale regardless of your experience. What CEOs or management have to do that?

I think that has been discussed under a single national seniority list in another thread. That is where a pilot would never have to take a pay cut. If they lost their job, they could just cut in line in front pilots at other airlines based upon DOH. There would certainly be no down side to that would there.

 

[waveflyer]

Yip-That's only one way to skin a very real- and dare I say GENEROUS- seniority problem-

as for those icebergs- doesn't management have to worry about those icebergs as well? A strike, chaos or full, is a risk and will weaken your company- that affects everyone- hopefully union negotiator are fully educated on the status of the company and aren't asking for the death of the golden goose-
however, you seem to think that any pilot group will ever get raises without the threat of a strike? If mgmt knows we aren't truly willing to walk- they would not be doing their job if they granted the raises.

EVERY professional will never get paid their worth UNTIL they are willing to walk away.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip-That's only one way to skin a very real- and dare I say GENEROUS- seniority problem-EVERY professional will never get paid their worth UNTIL they are willing to walk away.

And in most professions if you don't like it, you walk away to a better job. Other professionals even have headhunters call them and say I can get you $50K more at ABC for solving their problems. This gets management’s attention when they can not retain professionals that make their company operate. They throw money at the problem to retain key people. Pilots could get management's attention by leaving their present jobs. But as I said before there is a down side to this, it is extremely difficult to match a pilot’s present salary in a new pilot job. Not many headhunters are calling pilots because their skills are interchangeable. Pilot’s pay is based upon seniority, not upon a unique skill, once you move beyond the minimum skills to hold the job.

 

[waveflyer]

I say that discounts, incredibly, the benefits experience provides an airline. Bean counter logic through and through.

 

[pilotyip]

I say that discounts, incredibly, the benefits experience provides an airline. Bean counter logic through and through.

The top ten airlines have no experience shortage in their cockpits.

 

[Dan Roman]

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 1980: 40x's greater

average CEO pay to average worker pay in 2008: 319x's greater

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/

Thanks! That right there will be the downfall of this country if anything is. It was a strong middle class that built this country, the few at the top want more and everyone else will get less. Simple as that.

 

[waveflyer]

The top ten airlines have no experience shortage in their cockpits.

And how many young pilots are in the pipeline now? when I started flying, the financial equation was more profitable- now flt training costs twice as much and major airline careers pay half as well- experienced pilots don't grow on trees- And it's not a process that can be rushed just bc bean counters all of a sudden realize they should have been paying better - (regardless of MPL)

none of which recognizes that we get paid what we COLLECTIVELY bargain- hence ignoring union issues and pretending that we get paid strict market wages is flat out wrong.