Woerth might not sign a Mesaba concessionary contract

[Dumb Pilot]

When the interest of a group who's 2% is much less is in conflict with the interest of a group who's 2% is the bread and butter of the union. Who's 2% you think they will defend?
I've always said that there shouldn't be any regional or mainline pilots but rather Airline pilots.
I'm not sure that the RJDC or even ALPA (In its current structure) are the answer. The only way that I can see some stabilization within each brand is if every pilot flying that brand is on a single seniority list protected under the same working agreement, Period.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thanks for the update, we will watch how it turns out.

The only purpose for a union is to bring employees together. Obviously an organized, unified, force is stronger than a fragmented mob without any sense of direction.


I wish the RJDC was not right, but they are.

~~~^~~~

If the purpose of a union is to unify then what does the RJDC do to that intent? Is this tough love? Short term pain for long term gain in the interest of all.

The only way that I can see some stabilization within each brand is if every pilot flying that brand is on a single seniority list protected under the same working agreement, Period.

I agree. Brand Scope is about 10 years behind. Actually the next generation of Scope needs to be implemented.... Kinda like telecomm in Africa. Forget installing land lines and go right to cell phones.

I am just not smart enough to know what the nexgen is....


Brand Scope.....

Brand Scope is one pilot group’s negotiated right to fly the entire Brand. For Example: All UAL flying will be done by one pilot list. All DAL flying will be done by one pilot list. There would be no more United Express pilots or Delta Connection pilots. Only United Pilots and Delta Pilots. This basically amounts to flowthru and flowback.

This discussion isn’t about sacrificing one group for another. This is about blending multiple Brand pilot groups into One Brand Pilot Group.

Major airline pilots must resist the urge to shun this idea as degradation of their status. And this is for a couple of reasons; the degradation has already happened. Furloughed major Air Line Pilots are taking jobs at regionals. One Brand Pilot Group Unification must occur to stop the whipsawing and race to the bottom.

Why flow thru and back? Because it is currently being done reactively in concessionary agreements including J4J. AMR is doing it and so is UAL. These pilot groups negotiate employment for their furloughed pilots within the Regionals. The idea is to proactively place this into the CBA under terms and conditions favorable to all Brand pilots. If Legacy Carrier pilots are to stop losing flying to small jet operators they must take ownership of all their Brand flying.

While pilots that flow thru/back will work for different companies they do fly for the same Brand. The collective bargaining strength of all of the Brand pilots will prove long term to be win-win for all.

The legacy carrier will control the minimum hiring requirements, interviewing and selection process. Pilots will bid for what their seniority can hold. Flight experience may be a factor. In the interests of safety the union will be party to determining the minimum requirements.

One pilot group with one brand scope can prevent the losses of flying shifted from narrowbody jets to small jets and turboprops. The Brand Scope will also prevent management from placing Brand flying “up for bid” from other regional carriers who are willing to undercut the current operators. This is simply scope expanded to encompass the entire brand. The bankruptcy process still makes pilot groups vulnerable.

​

 

[PCL_128]

The only way that I can see some stabilization within each brand is if every pilot flying that brand is on a single seniority list protected under the same working agreement, Period.

For once, you and I agree! The question, of course, is how do we get there? Easier said than done.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

For once, you and I agree! The question, of course, is how do we get there? Easier said than done.

Re structuring ALPA is a good beginning. Sending good old Duane back to the line is a very good follow up. It would become easy if the problem is recognized, the problem is that the majority of our union guys and gals still think that ALPA can do no wrong and that the current form and the current ALPA management are good folks that only care about the well being of their membership. A lot of our Union members still think that Flying the line 1 and 2 are the written word of the prophets (You are a fine example of being drunk on the ALPA flavored Koolaid)
It might have being well intentioned at some point. But is has become a business like run over politicized institution that has clear agendas for the selected few. It is very easy to do all this chest banging when what's at stake is 800 pilots who's 2% won't hurt ALPA's bottom line if they disappear, but gives him and his boys the opportunity to fix his image as a strong union leader for the coming elections. He knows his image is tarnished, he might be taking what is considered as the correct stance for the MESABA pilots. But I can assure you he is doing it for the wrong reasons. On the mean time every one is criticizing those who are being set up to fall on their swords, but in a place deep inside you all wish to have just half their courage.
Our mediated talks just stalled, lets see if in the future we will have the courage that the MSA pilots have and not vote our conscience away. In my specific case, I can assure you I won't take one step backwards, I rather just walk away from a 25 year career. I will leave aviation before watching F/O's make less that somebody flipping burgers at McD's.
I support you guys, My MEC Speaks for Me. It is that lately you are speaking Greek, you guys sound more like politicians than pilots.

Like I said before, I don't agree with the RJDC but I don't agree with ALPA in its current form either. Mainlines MEC and the feeders MEC's doing their thing independently without working as one for the interest of all who work under the brand its just a waist of time.

 

[Dodge]

The NWALPA was screaming FOR brand scope 2-3 years ago. I believe the screaming has stopped now.

YPF,
How will Compass generate more dues to ALPA than XJ? More pilots? I doubt NWA plans on paying the pathetic loser commuter pilots that will fly for Compass anymore than they are paying their current loser commuter pilots. What would be the point of all the shenanigans taking place in the North Pole?
This is purely speculation, but all the CA's at Compass will be on first year regional pay...no? In six months that will be about 8 years less than the most junior XJ reserve CA.

 

[xjhawk]

mmmmmm brand scope......its nice those idiots who did the NWA pilot contract was nice enough to include provisions to specifically take aircraft away from mesaba....yes i know...the planes we fly are all property in essence of NWa, but its my job........why do those guys just take their pensions and retire, and let me work for far less than what they will be making in retirement...even if they get reduced to the bail out program rates......seriously.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

mmmmmm brand scope......its nice those idiots who did the NWA pilot contract was nice enough to include provisions to specifically take aircraft away from mesaba....yes i know...the planes we fly are all property in essence of NWa, but its my job........why do those guys just take their pensions and retire, and let me work for far less than what they will be making in retirement...even if they get reduced to the bail out program rates......seriously.......

First, I am not sure what kind of pension is left....

Second, I think the RJDC has an answer for you..

 

[YourPilotFriend]

mmmmmm brand scope......its nice those idiots who did the NWA pilot contract was nice enough to include provisions to specifically take aircraft away from mesaba....yes i know...the planes we fly are all property in essence of NWa, but its my job........why do those guys just take their pensions and retire, and let me work for far less than what they will be making in retirement...even if they get reduced to the bail out program rates......seriously.......

They will, if the pension fund is stabilized there will be a mass exodus out of NWA since the difference between retirement and working is less than $1000 a month. They will need to get other jobs to supplement the lost income.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I've always said that there shouldn't be any regional or mainline pilots but rather Airline pilots.

I'm not sure that the RJDC or even ALPA (In its current structure) are the answer. The only way that I can see some stabilization within each brand is if every pilot flying that brand is on a single seniority list protected under the same working agreement, Period.

A very smart thing for a "dumb pilot." ALPA is the best answer, the problem is ALPA lost its rudder.

The RJDC is simply here to repair the rudder and as soon as they are no longer needed, they will be gone to live their lives, spend time with their families and hopefully will still have a profession worth belonging to.

Brand Scope under one list is a "PID request," which the folks who started the RJDC tried to accomplish in 1999. We are pleased that some people in ALPA are beginning to understand and hope this trend accelerates. I don't care who takes credit for the return to ALPA's roots (or who repairs the rudder) but hope that getting real action does not take another S E V E N long years.

Also, from what ALPA has been saying in their depositions, the senior levels of this union still don't get it. The Delta concessionary negotiation went down recently with ALPA National providing numbers for cuts at DCI. ALPA has seen the plan for Delta's re-org, but they are not sharing that information with the ASA MEC.

In other words - nothing is changing yet. Duane is talking about making Mesaba go away and he began his public talking on this subject within 48 hours of the NWA agreement that gave us Compass.

Not to change the subject, but I wonder ow Compass pilots will be treated by mainline when NWA merges?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL and Rez: What do you think if Mesaba pilots tried a last minute effort to decertify or / and maybe bring Teamsters on the property?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL and Rez: What do you think if Mesaba pilots tried a last minute effort to decertify or / and maybe bring Teamsters on the property?

I haven't heard a single Mesaba pilot mention any such crazy idea. Of course, as you know, I would consider it to be a horrible mistake to leave ALPA.

I find this extremely ironic. For several years I've heard nothing but complaining from pilots about Captain Woerth not standing his ground in regards to these concessionary contracts. Now, he finally does, and I still hear nothing but complaining from you guys. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL:

Just wondering - wasn't suggesting.

So what airline you going to fly for next?

Sincerely, good luck, but hope you don't need it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PCL and Rez: What do you think if Mesaba pilots tried a last minute effort to decertify or / and maybe bring Teamsters on the property?

Why such a question? Is it imminent? What is to be gained by the XJ pilots for doing so? Respond and I'll engage..

A very smart thing for a "dumb pilot." ALPA is the best answer, the problem is ALPA lost its rudder.

The RJDC is simply here to repair the rudder and as soon as they are no longer needed, they will be gone to live their lives, spend time with their families and hopefully will still have a profession worth belonging to.

Brand Scope under one list is a "PID request," which the folks who started the RJDC tried to accomplish in 1999. We are pleased that some people in ALPA are beginning to understand and hope this trend accelerates. I don't care who takes credit for the return to ALPA's roots (or who repairs the rudder) but hope that getting real action does not take another S E V E N long years.

Also, from what ALPA has been saying in their depositions, the senior levels of this union still don't get it. The Delta concessionary negotiation went down recently with ALPA National providing numbers for cuts at DCI. ALPA has seen the plan for Delta's re-org, but they are not sharing that information with the ASA MEC.

In other words - nothing is changing yet. Duane is talking about making Mesaba go away and he began his public talking on this subject within 48 hours of the NWA agreement that gave us Compass.

Not to change the subject, but I wonder ow Compass pilots will be treated by mainline when NWA merges?

Fins,

I have reviewed the RJDC website.

Specifically in your 10 things about Scope...

I didn't see much in terms of clear action resulting in solved problems. In addition, unfortuately, like many ALPA pilots, blame is placed on ALPA, the union, for current conditions due to macro politics, management, gov't and economy.

Have you considered the negative and de-unifying effects the RJDC has on the ALPA membership?

Economic growth is very important for personal growth. When an industry is growing everyone gets thier own pie. No need to share. But when an industry shrinks, not only does no one get thier own pie, they have to share the only pie. It gets quite nasty when there are limited seats on the bus.

Is that ALPA's fault? Are you trying to make ALPA accountable for Sophie's Choice?

 

[PCL_128]

So what airline you going to fly for next?

Don't know. My crystal ball's a little cloudy. Why do you ask?

 

[PCL_128]

I have reviewed the RJDC website.

Specifically in your 10 things about Scope...

I didn't see much in terms of clear action resulting in solved problems.

Looking for actual solutions from the RJDC is a little like looking for common sense from Pinnacle management. It'll never happen.

Despite the rhetoric that they spew, the RJDC's goals have nothing to do with "fixing" the Association. The RJDC cares only about stealing what isn't rightfully theirs. Whether it's money, seniority, or flying, the RJDC cares only about stealing from their union brothers.

 

[tripacer]

I haven't heard a single Mesaba pilot mention any such crazy idea. Of course, as you know, I would consider it to be a horrible mistake to leave ALPA.

I find this extremely ironic. For several years I've heard nothing but complaining from pilots about Captain Woerth not standing his ground in regards to these concessionary contracts. Now, he finally does, and I still hear nothing but complaining from you guys. "danged if you do, danged if you don't."

I think the pilots are complaining, because ALL of "Captain" (and I use that term lightly) Woerths actions are meant to protect mainline - AT ALL COSTS.
In his pea-brain mind it's simple - let XJ implode and go away, opening flying up for Compass and an opportunity to bring all of those furloughed NWA mainline types back; even if it is on a CRJ.

He should just come out and tell XJ pilots - You're On Your Own, because his actions have indicated that for years!

Peace.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

I have reviewed the RJDC website. Specifically in your 10 things about Scope... I didn't see much in terms of clear action resulting in solved problems.

Have you considered the negative and de-unifying effects the RJDC has on the ALPA membership?

The "negative and de-unifying effects" on the union's membership are the direct result of the union's own misconduct. We continue to encourage ALPA to change its course and begin bringing pilots together.

The RJDC is the weatherman. We have observed storm clouds on the horizon and provided accurate forecasts. We observe harm to ALPA's members caught in the deluge and we report that too. If anything our activity provides some hope that ALPA will fix the storm damage. At least there are some loyal members of this union who are working dang hard to return The Pilots Union to the course that brought it past success. Without the RJDC, I think ALPA would be facing decertification - there would be no reason to keep the union who negotiates to destroy its own members jobs.

We want a democratic ALPA that protects the rights of its members. It would not be right for the RJDC to come in and demand a specific fix for ALPA. We believe that our local representatives are capable of representing us, ALPA National is the force that stops them. ALPA needs a system that provides equal representation for all of its members, including:

1. ALPA's full support for small jet pilots, the same as other members recieve
2. A judicary to resolve disputes between MECs

We have made recommendations to our Representatives and ALPA National, the PID request, the request to engage Delta in scope negotiations and many resolutions we have forwarded asking our MECs to get involved in negotiations at Delta which involve our pay and working conditions serve as examples.

I don't have the time to give your post the response it needs, but I appreciate your reading of Capt. Ford's writing on the RJDC web site - he is a lot better on this subject that I am anyway.

Do you agree with Duane Woerth - do you think Mesaba pilots are better off if their airline goes away and the jobs are transferred to other pilots on Duane Woerth's seniority list? Do you feel like this solution upholds the union's fiduciary duty to its members?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't know. My crystal ball's a little cloudy. Why do you ask?

Because here at ASA we are in the same boat as you. The folks with the really good crystal ball references seem to all be heading for the exits.

Most of the RJDC leadership is heading for Real Estate, becoming Investment Advisors, etc...., I like flying airplanes so like an idiot I turned down the well paying office gig and am still flying.

Probably time to go get the 737 type.

 

[PCL_128]

Because here at ASA we are in the same boat as you. The folks with the really good crystal ball references seem to all be heading for the exits.

Same is taking place here. We're losing roughly 9 Captains a month and 20 FOs a month. I'll move on as soon as possible, but easier said than done.

Most of the RJDC leadership is heading for Real Estate, becoming Investment Advisors, etc...., I like flying airplanes so like an idiot I turned down the well paying office gig and am still flying.

Same here. My father is a real estate broker and makes far more money than I would ever be able to make in this business, but I just can't see myself going into the "family business" and leaving flying behind. I'd rather stay and fight to make things better.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Do you agree with Duane Woerth - do you think Mesaba pilots are better off if their airline goes away and the jobs are transferred to other pilots on Duane Woerth's seniority list? Do you feel like this solution upholds the union's fiduciary duty to its members?

Fins,

I am not privy to all information so my response is really not valid. But I will respond so I don't look like an issue dodger....

At what point is it no longer a viable option?

All of this...that is going between the ALPA MECs/National and management is a big game. The problem is we (they) are playing with peoples ability to put food on the table. The good/bad thing is, flying airplanes isn't the only way to make money in this country.

It is Brinkmanship.


Are you leading me? Is the hardball position DW, TW and the XJ pilots taken similar to how supporters of the RJDC feel?


BTW, where did/do you fly the Bravo?

 

[PCL_128]

We want a democratic ALPA that protects the rights of its members. It would not be right for the RJDC to come in and demand a specific fix for ALPA. We believe that our local representatives are capable of representing us, ALPA National is the force that stops them. ALPA needs a system that provides equal representation for all of its members

Careful, you're contradicting yourself. The local reps that your say are capable of representing you are the very reps that elect the officers at National that you distrust. I certainly agree that there may be a slightly better way to arrange our national governance structure, but what we have is a democratic system.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Careful, you're contradicting yourself. The local reps that your say are capable of representing you are the very reps that elect the officers at National that you distrust. I certainly agree that there may be a slightly better way to arrange our national governance structure, but what we have is a democratic system.

To dovetail... if your local reps are capable of repsresenting you then why the RJDC?

 

[xjhawk]

what happened to brand scope? Do i not fly a redtail? So, Mr, i mean captain woerth, put your money where your mouth is and take back NWA's pilot contract you signed! Come on, now was not the time to draw a line in the sand.....snow whatever, the time was lost when you signed all those mainline contracts including the one at NWA which specifically takes planes away from Mesaba.........yes, it is long past the time for you to draw that line....if anyone sees him....let him know how you feel.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why the RJDC then?

Good question - The National Union refused to hear grievances regarding its own conduct. The National Union also refused to allow my MEC to participate in negotiations which control my wages and working conditions.

The history - Delta, Comair and ASA were all in negotiations. ASA and Comair tried to go through the proper channels and got the OK from Delta to negotiate for scope within the brand. Duane Woerth stopped that from happening. The letters are on the RJDC web site for all to see.

The reason for the RJDC is that our MEC was threatened with insolvency and recievership from National when our local reps tried to represent us. Our MEC Chairman at the time yelled at me that if we continued this fight with National we would not have money to put paper in the photocopier, much less negotiate a contract.

ALPA National has provided assistance to the Delta MEC in negotiating contracts which undermine our scope, has signed deals which abrogate our seniority list (the Bid Restricted Second Officer SLOA) and sanctioned concessionary bargaining at Delta Connection while providing numbers to the Delta MEC benefits of concessionary bargaining at DCI.

The reason for the RJDC is that ALPA National refused to allow the union's "system" to work. Law suits are only an option after every other means of solving the problem have failed.

And guys, Democracies are not perfect - they must have balances. Slavery was adopted by our Democracy, so was denial of Women's Rights to Vote and the internment of US Citizens of Japanese descent. A judiciary to keep every MEC from cutting deals with management to undermine other ALPA members would be a start to keep ALPA from being run by an aviation version of pop culture.

Unions should not be Elitist bastions which victimize their own members for the profit of a chosen few. Sure it might be "democratic" in ALPA's jerymandered system, but it is not the moral foundation for a successful union.

XJHawk - don't expect anyone to say much to Duane Woerth - for some reason everyone is afraid of the union they pay money to. I don't know why.

ALPA National does not want brand scope. ALPA wants there to be a Plantation House and small jet pilots working the fields to keep the folks in the Plantation House up in the style which they have become accustomed.

By the way, wasn't ALPA in negotiations with Mesaba and NWA concomitant with its promotion of "Brand Scope?" What happened? ALPA had the perfect opportunity to provide Mesaba with a little scope to prevent just this sort of melt down. Instead ALPA negotiated Compass. How do you justify ALPA's actions in light of their fiduciary duty to Mesaba pilots?

 

[accinelli]

Pilots Chief Defiant in Mesaba Showdown
Thursday July 20, 6:14 pm ET
By Joshua Freed, AP Business Writer Pilots Union Chief Defiant in Mesaba Showdown
BLOOMINGTON, Minn. (AP) -- The head of the nation's largest pilots union set up a potential legal showdown over Mesaba Airlines on Thursday, saying he'd prefer liquidation of the Northwest Airlines feeder over accepting a contract approved by a bankruptcy judge.

Air Line Pilots Association President Duane Woerth vowed a strike that could kill Mesaba if it imposes a new contract on pilots -- even though a judge has given the airline permission to do so. And he said he won't sign a contract that includes similar terms, even if Mesaba's 730 active pilots approve it.....

linky: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060720/mesaba_labor.html?.v=1

This works great. Mesaba Liquidates and NWA can shift the flying to a new regional (possibly COMPAS) with the exact payscales (or even lower) that cause the strike and the liquidation in the first place. Maybe Woerth isn't as foolish as we think.

 

[Poahi]

This works great. Mesaba Liquidates and NWA can shift the flying to a new regional (possibly COMPAS) with the exact payscales (or even lower) that cause the strike and the liquidation in the first place. Maybe Woerth isn't as foolish as we think.

This whole thing isn't making much sense at all. COMPASS' operating costs will likely be higher than XJ's and having the third small jet carrier gives NWA an advantage.

I do believe that the choice to strike is Mesaba's, not a union leader. Perhaps it's time to consider options. Even if I were at Mesaba and wanted to strike, I wouldn't stand for those kinds of statements.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why the RJDC then?



ALPA National does not want brand scope. ALPA wants there to be a Plantation House and small jet pilots working the fields to keep the folks in the Plantation House up in the style which they have become accustomed.

By the way, wasn't ALPA in negotiations with Mesaba and NWA concomitant with its promotion of "Brand Scope?" What happened? ALPA had the perfect opportunity to provide Mesaba with a little scope to prevent just this sort of melt down. Instead ALPA negotiated Compass. How do you justify ALPA's actions in light of their fiduciary duty to Mesaba pilots?

Fins,

Plantation House...? You are losing me with drama. But if you must then address Sophie's Choice...

Brand Scope at XJ/NWA? Have you considered that management didn't go for it?

You haven't addressed the factors of economy, management, gov't, etc...


If you can objectively discuss how Non-ALPA factors have contributed to your quagmire then you may gain an audience.

 

[xjhawk]

mr woerth.....where is your loyalties at....oh yes......why did i even ask......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

....if you must then address Sophie's Choice...

Brand Scope at XJ/NWA? Have you considered that management didn't go for it?

You haven't addressed the factors of economy, management, gov't, etc...

If you can objectively discuss how Non-ALPA factors have contributed to your quagmire then you may gain an audience.

I am not familiar with the Sophie's Choice - reference. It sounds like a chick flick.

Do you mean Hobson's Choice - which is an old english reference meaning there was no choice, or no desireable choice?

ALPA is responsible for their own conduct. If the economy is bad, the law does not allow people to begin robbing and victimizing each other. In fact, I would argue that the need for a union is highest during a down turn.

Lets see the negotiator's notepad with Brand Scope on the list, or meeting minutes where Brand Scope was pushed by ALPA (my bet is that Brand Scope never made it past political speeches)

"Management didn't go for it" is no excuse. Are you telling me a union can not use US law to protect its members' jobs because management was not willing to enter into a conspiracy? In fact there was an agreement and ALPA got what it negotiated for.

Compass was a win / win for NWA management and those at ALPA National dependent on NWA's votes. That does not make it right. I submit to you that the most junior member of Mesaba, or NWA list is more important than Duane Woerth's half million dollar a year job. A union is supposed to put its members first and this could have been done with inclusive scope.

But you say it was easier to talk management into BUYING a completely new certificate, starting a new airline and using pilots without longevity..... Hmmm.

No, I'm not here to help create excuses for failures. I'm here to try to get the grassroots of this union motivated to change the direction of our union back to the successful course it maintained for many years.

~~~^~~~

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am not familiar with the Sophie's Choice - reference. It sounds like a chick flick.

Holocost movie.... Nazi's make a parent choose which of thier children dies. if the parent refuses, both children die. The analogy: managment has all leverage: save some jobs or lose them all.....

ALPA is responsible for their own conduct. If the economy is bad, the law does not allow people to begin robbing and victimizing each other. In fact, I would argue that the need for a union is highest during a down turn.

I would agree, but you seem to be forgetting an important apsect of pragmatism: reality. A union can negotiate to save as many jobs as possible or management will furlough deep to get the costs they want. Either way management gets thier cost down and in some cases a BK judge to help them out.

"Management didn't go for it" is no excuse. Are you telling me a union can not use US law to protect its members' jobs because management was not willing to enter into a conspiracy? In fact there was an agreement and ALPA got what it negotiated for.

I really don't deal in conspiracies. Nonetheless, "management didn't go for it" means they doidn't go for it, or the pilot group didn't have enought capital to negotiate for it or the MEC/membership would go for it...

Also, US Law is slighted towards companies not labor.

No, I'm not here to help create excuses for failures. I'm here to try to get the grassroots of this union motivated to change the direction of our union back to the successful course it maintained for many years.

Well that I support. I just think you need to be a little more realistic and pragmatic....