Woerth might not sign a Mesaba concessionary contract

[Poahi]

You mentioned regionals holding the bar up. What? No offense but the regional pay has been why the airline pilot pay bar has been lowered to this point. I'm a former regional pilot myself so I'm not trying to dump on you alone but every regional out there flying jet aircraft right now got their first jet on property because management came to their pilot group and said we'll get these jets and you guys can fly these jets if you fly them at these rates. And so it all began.

I'd like to offer a different point of view. IMHO, the key reason pay rates have dropped is because scope limits have backfired and the only reason regional airlines are flying the regional jets is because mainline didn't want them.

Before ALPA really got in to representing the regional airlines, the majors made sure they had what they thought was really tight scope language. After all, they didn't want to be flying small aircraft which were mainly turbo-props. They knew the pay rates and work rules for small airplanes couldn't approach the kind of terms the mainline airplanes could support. So rather than support the idea that the small aircraft should be folded in the brand, they didn't want anything to do with them. IMHO, that was a mistake.

Because of competitive pressure, management had to figure out a way to get short and thin markets covered with proper frequency, so when Canadaair and others approached them about flying RJ's, they couldn't refuse. Why should the majors fly RJ's under mainline terms when they couldn't afford to? They could cover flights with RJ's much cheaper than mainline aircraft. Rather than draw a line in the sand and exclude small aircraft, ALPA should have done its best to keep all flying in house. Had ALPA carriers done this, you wouldn't see 300 hour pilots willing to work for anything to fly a big shiny jet.

Even if the terms were somewhat different for the RJ's, we wouldn't see the disaster we see today. It's too late now. Now ALPA national is virtually powerless to help stop this kind of wage compression because it never imagined the RJ would take over a large portion of what used to be mainline flying. It is getting so bad now, that it won't be long before regionals are flying 737's and scope will be a memory. The startups and regionals flying larger aircraft will put competitive wage pressure on the majors and it will be the regionals will be the set the mainline wages. All this because scope limits have backfired. Many of the mainline pilots have already made more money than the rest of us ever will, even if we join a major. So when Capt. Woerth says he won't let XJ sign a lousy contract, I have to chuckle. That conversation should have happened 20 years ago. XJ has to fend for itself now.

IMHO, the only thing ALPA can do now is start a PR campaign targeted at student pilots and flight instructors painting them a picture of what their career earnings will be in light of the devastation in the industry and making it very clear that there is a high cost to being willing to fly for anything.

 

[xjhawk]

i have talked to ALPA reps at Mesaba in passing about some sort of campaign to talk to flight schools, their response is that is not their job, their responsibility....funny, how airlines see it as their responsibility to go to these flight schools and promise these young pilots jobs flying jets....never mentioning that they will be making 14 grand a year and have huge education costs to payback (what is a degree at northdakota? 100 grand now?)

Alpa should have like pre memberships at these schools. purely as like an informational mailing campaign or something. Like make it a requirement to join this mailing campaign if you want a ALPA job.....something like ......to get the word out. It can also stress safety......etc.....

 

[Dodge]

NW has it win win win regardless.

All the "loud mouth chest beaters" are the junior pilots who have the least to lose career wise are ticking off the guys who have payed their dues. The senior XJ pilots will vote for anything. These guys wouldn't leave XJ when airlines were hiring, why would they now? The junior pilots at XJ need to get some experience in the 121 world. Great turmoil and civil war amongst the ranks. Advantage: NW

If the pilots at XJ do walk out after an imposed contract is forced upon them, all the feed XJ supplies will be cleverly shifted over to Compass where everyone will be on 1st year pay unlike the 15 yr CA and 9 year FO at XJ. Advantage: NW and NWALPA

If the pilots at XJ sign a big concessionary deal (most likely of the three), XJ will be severely under industry average rates and a place for only the worst "DUI and Accident Prone" pilots to hang out as FO's. Most likely nonstop turboporp service will be all that is supplied by XJ. Advantage: NW

 

[~~~^~~~]

All ALPA has to do is allow regional carriers to have scope - Contracts which bind the brand to the pilots who perform the flying.

Instead, ALPA only allow certain airlines to have scope. This ALPA apartied sanctions pilots negotiating against pilots. Worse, ALPA's economic analysis department provides the favored pilots with analysis of the benefit to them created by the cuts at "express" carriers.

ALPA's fake stand at Mesaba is purely the result of their preference that these jobs exist at Compass.

Further - ALPA's view of success in "full pay to the last day" is like a pilot bragging that he had his hands on the controls until the crash.

Job preservation - by using the scope tools ALPA legitimately has use of - should be priority one. ALPA using its power to benefit preferred members at the expense of its other membership has got to stop. We are far beyond having the luxury of worring about the future. We are at the stage where our union's deliberate misdeeds have immediate consequences.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Well considering Duane and the senior pilots now have siginifcant equity in the company, of course they want compass. Especially since compass is being done in house and will generate huge profits either through stock or sale. Your right though, no matter what happens management wins. You do realize that NWA has hundreds perhaps thousands of analyists that have been working 24/7 for the past 15 years on this.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I listened to Woerth's opponent speak two days ago and believe me when I tell you that Duane doesn't have to pull any stunts like this to win the election. I'm not a big Duane fan either but if he didn't say another word to any MEC's until the October election, he'd still win in a landslide. The only way Duane doesn't get re-elected is he dropped out of the race. Brannan doesn't have a chance. ALPA would be worse off with him in office.

Hopefully, someone like John Malone will come out of the woodwork at the BOD. It 'aint over 'til General Lee's "hot wife" sings!

 

[John Pennekamp]

All ALPA has to do is allow regional carriers to have scope - Contracts which bind the brand to the pilots who perform the flying.

Instead, ALPA only allow certain airlines to have scope. This ALPA apartied sanctions pilots negotiating against pilots. Worse, ALPA's economic analysis department provides the favored pilots with analysis of the benefit to them created by the cuts at "express" carriers.

ALPA's fake stand at Mesaba is purely the result of their preference that these jobs exist at Compass.

Further - ALPA's view of success in "full pay to the last day" is like a pilot bragging that he had his hands on the controls until the crash.

Job preservation - by using the scope tools ALPA legitimately has use of - should be priority one. ALPA using its power to benefit preferred members at the expense of its other membership has got to stop. We are far beyond having the luxury of worring about the future. We are at the stage where our union's deliberate misdeeds have immediate consequences.

Well said Fins. XJ is being thrown under the bus to make way for Compass.

 

[ReverseSensing]

It 'aint over 'til General Lee's "hot wife" sings!

Well done. Hilarious!

 

[kmox29]

On another note, I thought everyone was pissed cause DW kept signing these low ball contracts.... Now, he might not sign this one and its still not good enough...Whiners and Haters...

I think the main issue is that DW had a few opportunities to make a stand regarding management gouging pilot contracts under the guise of bankruptcy.

Not wanting to send one of the big boys to the front line, he all of a sudden puffs out his chest and puts his foot down and orders the tiny Mesaba batallion to charge.

I agree with DW's stance on the Mesaba issue, it's just a little too convienient that he makes the BIG stand with the Mesaba pilot group and not a pilot group that would have a serious impact.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think the main issue is that DW had a few opportunities to make a stand regarding management gouging pilot contracts under the guise of bankruptcy. .

Perhaps it depends on your perspective.. The majority of the ALPA members jobs are at the major level. Majority rules. As a regional guy I understand this way of thing....

Not wanting to send one of the big boys to the front line, he all of a sudden puffs out his chest and puts his foot down and orders the tiny Mesaba batallion to charge..

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Plus, everyone wants everybody to fall on thier sword for the good of the profession: except themselves.

I agree with DW's stance on the Mesaba issue, it's just a little too convienient that he makes the BIG stand with the Mesaba pilot group and not a pilot group that would have a serious impact.

Maybe cause, like another poster stated, this is a trail issue. Let's see how the chips fall politically and if it favors ALPA then legal precedence has been set.

Welcome to politics, the responsibilty of 66,000 pilots with different agendas and the world of grey....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All ALPA has to do is allow regional carriers to have scope - Contracts which bind the brand to the pilots who perform the flying.

fins, Fins FINS! I respect you bro, but whats with the RJDC rhetoric so soon...

Instead, ALPA only allow certain airlines to have scope. This ALPA apartied sanctions pilots negotiating against pilots. Worse, ALPA's economic analysis department provides the favored pilots with analysis of the benefit to them created by the cuts at "express" carriers.

Inside conspiracy theories?

ALPA's fake stand at Mesaba is purely the result of their preference that these jobs exist at Compass.

Not sure how many NWA mainline bros want a compass job. I like Brand Scope or rather the next generation of scope.

Further - ALPA's view of success in "full pay to the last day" is like a pilot bragging that he had his hands on the controls until the crash.

I'd rather be fighting till the last milisecond than taking a passenger status in the cockpit while the jet was still airborne.

It is dangerous to keep taking lower pay rates with a failed bsuiness plan. It only makes it more difficult for other pilots groups who operate the same equipment..

Job preservation - by using the scope tools ALPA legitimately has use of - should be priority one. ALPA using its power to benefit preferred members at the expense of its other membership has got to stop. We are far beyond having the luxury of worring about the future. We are at the stage where our union's deliberate misdeeds have immediate consequences.

ALPA has got to FF to the new millenium... but the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

 

[Hulk Hogan]

My bet there is another win in this for NWA. With XJ beat down to the ground, you can bet 9E mgt will be chomping at the bit for the same crapy contract. If 9E is as young as I think they are XJ won't be alone at the bottom very long. (Not a shot at 9E just a thought based on those 500 hour fo's who are willing to do ANYTHING to fly those CRJ's as evident by that Jet U thred). If DW refuses to sign our (XJ) crappy contract, do you think he will hold the same position when it is time to sign for 9E?

 

[Copydat]

I am all for a pilot group making a stand. I do oppose Worthless telling the regionals to take a stand when he has endorsed the majors taking huge consessions. I want to take a stand but it has nothing to do with Worthless' opinion. He can stay the heck out of my MEC business. Let him find a major MEC to be his personal martyr. He was no where to be found when we were fighting for scope clauses, list integration, higher wage rates and better scheduling sections. Why is he suddenly appearing on my radar screen? He views me as an expendable foot soldier in the fight to prevent the Major Airline bar from being lowered any further. He knows that the major wage rates are approaching the top rates at the regionals. If the regional rates fall that will put more downward pressure on the rates at the majors. Yea to local ALPA boo to national ALPA.

 

[Dodge]

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Plus, everyone wants everybody to fall on thier sword for the good of the profession: except themselves.




Maybe cause, like another poster stated, this is a trail issue. Let's see how the chips fall politically and if it favors ALPA then legal precedence has been set.

Welcome to politics, the responsibilty of 66,000 pilots with different agendas and the world of grey....

Very true. It wasn't too long ago that the rank and file NW, US, UA, DL, etc pilots were really laying into the WN pilots for watering down "their hard earned" profession. Now its the WN boys and girls wondering/fearing how low these "legacy" pilots are willing to go. ALPA leaders, both at the National level and Local, are purely politicians that just happen to know how to press a starter button. They are there to help themselves, not for the good of the majority. If I am not mistaken, the majority has seen their pay and benefits slashed up to 50% (NW) in some cases and their reitrements wiped out.

My count has the majority "legacy ALPA" amassing heavy casualties all while the airlines continue to operate, post staggering losses, pay extreme bonuses to execs, and ask and receive more concessions from their pilots. The majority has already lost under this ALPA leadership and thankfully for them, misery loves company. The minority is right behind them.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not sure, but he did it with Midway when they were doing USAIR express service...


On another note, I thought everyone was pissed cause DW kept signing these low ball contracts.... Now, he might not sign this one and its still not good enough...

Whiners and Haters...

Depends on how much money the pilot group contributes. Mesaba, like CCAir, is wo[e]rth throwing under the bus. ALPA is a business - it will do what is best for ALPA, not necessarily what is best for you.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes he did. He believed that they agreed to the TA under duress and refused to sign it as a result. The CCAir pilots were eventually brought into the Mesa seniority list with their contract.

And the Delta, NWA, PDT, ALG, UAL, and other concessionary contracts weren't agreed to under "duress"? The CCAir guys were small enough that they could be sacrificed. Unless you are going to do it for ALL pilot groups, you shouldn't do it for any. The CCAir pilots were brought into Mesa, but it was under a worse contract and they lost much of their longevity.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Bingo!

Here's why Duane is suddenly ready to make a stand.

His good 'ol boys at NWA (The airline formerly nown as Northwest) got a deal to fly RJs with Compass. They want is, they can have it, screw those pee on regional pilots! Now every "A Group" (mainline) has taken their pay cut and got theirs.

Duane happens to up for re-election. Who's gonna vote for him? Group A. Who does Duane know WONT vote for him? Groups B and C (the regionals). Why? Because he has screwed us at every turn. So why would he fight for Mesaba at the expense of his good 'ol boys not... it looks better for him to "take a stand" with an airline that the A Group percieves that doesn't really matter.

In other words, this whole thing is a political stunt for Duane to look good before his election in October. He is throwing the Mesaba workers and their families under the bus.

That's what this is all about. MAIR management raped them, but many companies have survived worse. If Mesaba dies, it's ALPA politica that killed them.

BINGO! I dare say it, but I agree 100%. Ready for an RJDC contribution form? ALPA will do what is best for ALPA.

 

[belchfire]

Too late DW seems to have reached puberty...

 

[~~~^~~~]

You guys who chant "majority Rules!" have not taken the time to become familiar with a union's duties to its members. ALPA has a fiduciary duty to its members. From Wikpedia:

A fiduciary duty is the highest standard of care imposed at either equity or law. A fiduciary is expected to be extremely loyal to the person they owe the duty (the "principal"): they must not put their personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from their position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents. The fiduciary relationship is highlighted by good faith, loyalty and trust, and the word itself originally comes from the Latin fides, meaning faith, and fiducia.

Now transferring jobs to your preferred members in no way meets the union's obligation.

As far as the union performing economic analysis of the benefits from the "attack" (my choice of words) on "express" (ALPA's choice of words) pilots, while providing not a cintilla of analysis on the harm being done to these members, this has been documented on paper as part of discovery in multiple Duty of Fair Representation lawsuits which will probably see trial (and hopefully the light of public exposure) in the next 24 months. Yes, it is a conspiracy, absolutely it is, and there is real harm being done to ALPA members as a result.

Tom Wychor thinks Mesaba pilots will benefit from losing their jobs, let me re-phrase, he believes in this stuff. He may believe, but he is dead wrong. The union's duty is to protect and promote jobs. If a Mesaba pilot decides to work elsewhere, good for him, but it is not our union's proper role to play Kingmaker by deciding which member benefits from ALPA's representation and which member loses as a result of their ALPA affiliation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You guys who chant "majority Rules!" have not taken the time to become familiar with a union's duties to its members. ALPA has a fiduciary duty to its members. From Wikpedia:

A fiduciary duty is the highest standard of care imposed at either equity or law. A fiduciary is expected to be extremely loyal to the person they owe the duty (the "principal"): they must not put their personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from their position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents. The fiduciary relationship is highlighted by good faith, loyalty and trust, and the word itself originally comes from the Latin fides, meaning faith, and fiducia.

Now transferring jobs to your preferred members in no way meets the union's obligation.

As far as the union performing economic analysis of the benefits from the "attack" (my choice of words) on "express" (ALPA's choice of words) pilots, while providing not a cintilla of analysis on the harm being done to these members, this has been documented on paper as part of discovery in multiple Duty of Fair Representation lawsuits which will probably see trial (and hopefully the light of public exposure) in the next 24 months. Yes, it is a conspiracy, absolutely it is, and there is real harm being done to ALPA members as a result.

Tom Wychor thinks Mesaba pilots will benefit from losing their jobs, let me re-phrase, he believes in this stuff. He may believe, but he is dead wrong. The union's duty is to protect and promote jobs. If a Mesaba pilot decides to work elsewhere, good for him, but it is not our union's proper role to play Kingmaker by deciding which member benefits from ALPA's representation and which member loses as a result of their ALPA affiliation.

Well said fins, however Rez has represented ALPA's position and that is why I no longer support ALPA. ALPA's position, as Rez has pointed out, is that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". As one of the "few", I have to disagree and withdraw my support for the "whole" if that is in fact their position.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Perhaps it depends on your perspective.. The majority of the ALPA members jobs are at the major level. Majority rules. As a regional guy I understand this way of thing....

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Plus, everyone wants everybody to fall on thier sword for the good of the profession: except themselves.

"Majority rules" without protections is a very dangerous thing. If the majority of Americans want to make slavery legal, should that be allowed? After all, majority rules right?

 

[instructordude]

About 10 percent below Mesa

Oh..and a lot of silence after that quote. That is pretty bad. God...................

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You guys who chant "majority Rules!" have not taken the time to become familiar with a union's duties to its members. ALPA has a fiduciary duty to its members. From Wikpedia:

A fiduciary duty is the highest standard of care imposed at either equity or law. A fiduciary is expected to be extremely loyal to the person they owe the duty (the "principal"): they must not put their personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from their position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents. The fiduciary relationship is highlighted by good faith, loyalty and trust, and the word itself originally comes from the Latin fides, meaning faith, and fiducia.

Now transferring jobs to your preferred members in no way meets the union's obligation.

As far as the union performing economic analysis of the benefits from the "attack" (my choice of words) on "express" (ALPA's choice of words) pilots, while providing not a cintilla of analysis on the harm being done to these members, this has been documented on paper as part of discovery in multiple Duty of Fair Representation lawsuits which will probably see trial (and hopefully the light of public exposure) in the next 24 months. Yes, it is a conspiracy, absolutely it is, and there is real harm being done to ALPA members as a result.

Tom Wychor thinks Mesaba pilots will benefit from losing their jobs, let me re-phrase, he believes in this stuff. He may believe, but he is dead wrong. The union's duty is to protect and promote jobs. If a Mesaba pilot decides to work elsewhere, good for him, but it is not our union's proper role to play Kingmaker by deciding which member benefits from ALPA's representation and which member loses as a result of their ALPA affiliation.

Fins and Joe M.

Let's talke it a step further.....

You are screaming for miniority rights..... at the expense of the majority.

Why should all the steps to buildings be destroyed and replaced with wheelchair ramps? The majority of people use stairs and steps. Now, if you can show how a ramp and stairs and work at the same time... then you are effective.

Show how the RJDC can show how ALPA can protect both intrests and you'll have an audience. If ALPA national could... why wouldn't they?

Finally, when the up-cylce returns and the majors are hiring again [IOW, opportunity and professional growth for more individuals] I think intrest in the RJDC will wane.

 

[belchfire]

And whyizzit that all the CEO's of "bankrupt" airlines get handed millions for their collective failure to protect the interests of the stockholders...and why are some airlines employees getting paid more and are still profitable?

 

[Hulk Hogan]

If the majority of the furloughed NWA guys choose not to aceept employment at SJet (this has been said multiple times by multiple people) then why allow SJet to be created in the first place. I can understand the thought of giving oportunities first to the furloughees of NWA. However if they decline why continue with this course of action while there are two other companies that could do the flying (XJ and 9E) with the one who very shortly will have 200 pilots on furlough? Why create another whole group who will end up competing for the exact same thing we all have?

 

[surplus1]

>> the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

I think you would be more accurate if you said: The wants of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

ALPA made the deliberate choice, many years ago, to cater to the wants of the mainline groups at the expense of the needs of the regional groups. It was not an accidental course as a consequence of events, it was a deliberate and conscious choice that intentionally exploited the naivete of the regional pilots who were easily and successfully manipulated. There was an objective or goal and that objective has not changed.

That objective has always been to correct the errors they made in mainline scope by taking back the flying that resulted at regional carriers. Those regional carriers were "admitted" to ALPA membership as a means of exercising as much control as possible while the effort to recapture continued. How the means of achieving the objective might adversely affect the regional pilot membership has never been a concern of ALPA leadership. The intended end has always justified the means of achieving it.

In the process ALPA has intentionally disregarded its fiduciary responsibilities and its Duty of Fair Representation to its regional constituency. The leadership of the organization has always believed that no regional pilot group would ever have the courage, the knowledge or the financial capacity to demand fair treatement or to challenge their methodology. They counted on being able to manipulate and corerce any emerging small airline leadership that might come to understand their modus operandi. In most cases their assessment was correct.

They developed and used a well orchestrated communications and propaganda effort to lure regional pilots into collaboration with promises of access to mainline jobs that they had no intention of honoring and no ability to deliver. They are still doing that today, and most regional pilots are still drinking that snake oil believing that it will cure their ailments.

They used their paid attorneys and financial analysis experts to artificially control and neuter any negotiating prowess at any regional carrier that might serve to interfere with the success of their basic objectives. They were more than successful in achieving that objective by effectively blocking any effort by a regional pilot group to secure its own future, whenever that future represented a perceived "threat" to their primary objective. That is precisely why no ALPA-represented region group has ever been able to "negotiate" any effective scope protection of its work. ALPA has been studious and effective in preventing it.

Using the lure of one-sided and bogus "flow-through" argreements they provided stop-gap furlough protection for mainline pilots at the expense of their regional counterparts, whose leaders naievely took the bait or sacrificed the welfare of their own constituents in the false hope of getting "rich quick" by picking up the fools gold that ALPA dangled before them. Those who took the bait, like PanAm express, Midway, Eagle all got taken to the cleaners. Those who sold themselves in the vain hope of getting a false promise, like Mesaba, got nothing, and now face replacement by a "new and improved" version of MDA called Compass, which will protect some mainline pilot interests at the expense of Mesaba pilots. Mesaba's long-term "leader" still thinks that in all that ALPA horse-s*it there's a pony somewhere that he will get to ride.

They intentionally created and promoted the conditions that generated alter egos at regional airlines and encouraged the outsourcing of flying allocated to wholly owned subsidiaries. When that wasn't enough to satisfy their wants, they negotiated and imposed J4J agreements that abrogated the seniority of regional pilots, both in and out of ALPA, and gave preferential jobs and Captain positions at those airlines to mainline pilots. They did this with the coerced consent of regional pilot leaders at Mesa, PSA and others.

They used, where possible, the gullible leaders of regional pilot groups as tools to aid them in convincing the few that were recalcitrant and lure others to join the ranks of those who had designed their own demise. In the main, they have been quite successful at doing this.

Finally they but the icing on the cake by negotiating at their preferred mainline carriers pay rates that deliberately undercut the hard-fought contracts at several regional carriers that ALPA "represents" in an effort to "take back" the flying they claim they "own" at the expense of the jobs of regional pilots. While this effort has not yet succeeded, it has instead resulted in the need for regional pilots to gut their contracts to "meet the competition". That "competition" has been created or facilitated by ALPA's efforts in almost every instance.

The wants of the majority do indeed exceed the needs of the minority. Smell the Coffee.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus 1 - Excellent post, Sir.

Fins and Joe M.

Let's talke it a step further.....

You are screaming for miniority rights..... at the expense of the majority.

Why should all the steps to buildings be destroyed and replaced with wheelchair ramps? The majority of people use stairs and steps. Now, if you can show how a ramp and stairs and work at the same time... then you are effective.

Show how the RJDC can show how ALPA can protect both intrests and you'll have an audience. If ALPA national could... why wouldn't they?

Finally, when the up-cylce returns and the majors are hiring again [IOW, opportunity and professional growth for more individuals] I think intrest in the RJDC will wane.

First, it is not a matter of my personal opinion. It is a matter of law and of ALPA's duties to its membership.

But, if you are asking my opinion - it is my opinion that a union that brings pilots together to raise the profession will be successful through the force of its' unity. More specifically, ALPA builds the profession by "jacking up the house" where each new contract lifts higher than the previous one. This worked effectively for many years. But in order for this strategy to work you must have scope that binds the company to the service of only its own pilots.

ALPA diverged from its moral, and legal, obligation when certain mainline MEC's felt there was an advantage to outsourcing flying they felt was beneath them (by reason of pay, or status). Scope was sold for higher compensation but management quickly adapted to ALPA's greedy error. Step two of this failure was when the mainline interests decided that "express" carriers should not be allowed to obtain their own scope within the brand. So artificial limitations were placed on some ALPA members who would not recieve the benefit of their union membership.

Now we have mainline pilots flying RJ's for less than "express" carriers and management is seekeing round after round of concessions. Management has turned the tables on ALPA because you can knock down a house one corner at a time.

Worse, ALPA is providing its preferred members with data showing the benefits of the cuts at "express" carriers.

Simply put - ALPA's job is to bring pilots together. ALPA Apartied has divided us and we are weaker when we are divided into small groups all fighting for our own narrow self interest.

ALPA is not Democracy anyway. The Executive Board is hugely jerrymandered to the point FedEx gets an EVP based on nothing but their dues money and other airlines are under represented because they have a turboprop in the fleet. Further, a democracy requires checks and balances - which ALPA does not have. ALPA needs a judiciary to resolve conflicts between MECs.

But - Slavery was a democratically accepted norm which was only set straight through strong executive leadership and the Courts (two of the balances of power ALPA does not have).

There is a reason ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes and Teamsters is picking up members like Kudzu grows in Georgia during the summer. I think ALPA is the answer and want ALPA to repair itself.

As far as wheelchair ramps go - you would have to ask Bush Senior. I did not like the Americans With Disabilities Act as it was written and I think his signature was part of the reason Clinton got into office. (I got opinions about everything)

~~~^~~~

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA's BOD approved another change in EVP Caucus Groups

ALPA is not Democracy anyway. The Executive Board is hugely jerrymandered to the point FedEx gets an EVP based on nothing but their dues money and other airlines are under represented because they have a turboprop in the fleet. Further, a democracy requires checks and balances - which ALPA does not have. ALPA needs a judiciary to resolve conflicts between MECs.

~~~^~~~

Fins, you got mail!

Board of Directors Approves New EVP Structure

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Over the years, the airline industry has changed. In response, to maintain and enhance member representation on the Executive Council, the ALPA Board of Directors has changed the way in which Executive Vice-President (EVP) Caucus Groups are determined.
ALPA's BOD recently approved another change in EVP Caucus Groups, because dramatic changes in the industry have again resulted in an unwieldy structure, with a large number of airlines in some caucus groups and very few in others.
The new structure eliminates distinctions based on aircraft powerplants and attempts to distribute pilot groups evenly among caucus groups. Large pilot groups (more than 4,000 members or more than $10 million in annual dues) remain in Group A, and Canadian pilot groups remain in a separate group, Group C.
All other pilot groups are placed in Group B and divided in a relatively equal fashion into four subgroups, each of which elects a separate executive vice-president. The precise subgroup divisions will not be made until September 1, but preliminary information regarding the alignment is posted on 'My ALPA' on Crewroom.alpa.org.

​

Sorry guys.... I understand your postion but just don't find it valid. You seem to neglect that the major airline pilots are larger in numbers, have more votes, pay more in dues and significantly contribute to the brand more than the connection/express pilots. If you can show that ALPA can address the concerns of the both groups then you have a win win. In addition, as stated, the RJDC is simply a short term reaction to current economic distress, similiar to cries for National Seniority Lists and Pay Scales.

While I don't agree with your message, your delivery is professional, pragamtic and respectable.

What is the status of the lawsuit?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I understand your postion but just don't find it valid. You seem to neglect that the major airline pilots are larger in numbers, have more votes, pay more in dues and significantly contribute to the brand more than the connection/express pilots. If you can show that ALPA can address the concerns of the both groups then you have a win win. In addition, as stated, the RJDC is simply a short term reaction to current economic distress, similiar to cries for National Seniority Lists and Pay Scales.

What is the status of the lawsuit?

Thanks for the update, we will watch how it turns out.

The only purpose for a union is to bring employees together. Obviously an organized, unified, force is stronger than a fragmented mob without any sense of direction.

The RJDC was formed during the year of Delta's greatest profitability. It is a (hopefully) short term reaction to ALPA's lack of representational equality which runs contrary to the law and the good of the union itself. The RJDC forecast the sort of concessionary bargaining - while Delta and United were posting record contractual gains. Go back and read the stuff on the RJDC website that was written in 1999 to 2001 (it is amazing their crystal ball was so accurate)

Management has gone repeatedly to labor to underwrite their failures, because ALPA has made it easy to do so. Weak scope has resulted in airline pilots negotiating against airline pilots through their bargaining agent, ALPA.

What we originally proposed is simple - all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots. Perfect scope. Now how is that not a win / win?

The lawsuit is going depressingly well. If that seems like a strange thing for litigant to say, it is because we hoped the lawsuit would be a tool to help ALPA fix its representational quagmire. Discovery and Depositions have effectively documented the case that will be presented at trial. In fact, the only surprise is that the documentation is stronger than we originally thought it would be. We may be able to get this to trial in 2007.

Again, I can not stress how dangerous these times are for our profession. Our union's mistakes are having immediate consequences. ALPA could change on a dime if it had the leadership to do so, but there is so much political momentum now and nobody wants to be the first to say - "we were wrong and screwed this up." Political suicide is not a popular option for ALPA's leaders and the political fervor is so high that ALPA is even being hamstrung by lawyers that practice politics instead of law.

This thing has snowballed on ALPA. I'm not a named party to the lawsuit, or an official source, just a very interested opinionated observer since this is my profession and my union too.

The same people who forecast the current state of the industry way back in 1999 are all getting into real estate and investment advising. The fact that none of these guys sees flying as a career with any future is very frightning.

Our airline's President, Bryan LaBreque, lauded an economic model by which airlines would re-staff every 5 years while keeping the same operational structure. By destroying longevity, the airline could remain profitable without having a business cycle determined by employee wages. ALPA has enabled this management strategy. At our airline, our senior pilots are having their airplanes transferred to a non union carrier that is training 764 pilots this year (captains and FO's).

I wish the RJDC was not right, but they are.

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[YourPilotFriend]

The company faces the danger of a pilot shortage forcing labor costs up beyond a very controled level. In other words a sort of mainline creep. For any pilots to make a stand in todays market there has to be a pilot shortage, and that can't happen at the mainline. The airline would rather cancel flights for the regionals and lose money than transfer that flying to the mainline.

From the management standpoint the bankruptcy process was necessary. The competitive cost structures are rapidly falling for the LCC's and growing for the legacy's. In about 10-15(age 65) years this is going to flip flop because 50% of the pilot group will be force into retirement causing legacy's of all junior pilots and hiring, with the LCC's not hiring with all senior pilots. I've seen the numbers and it should drop the pilot cost of labor by another 40% over the next ten years. The scope relief allows NWA to do two things: 1. with regional expansion, it always gaurantees a mainline pilot surplus keeping labor costs current.
2. Shed aircraft debt on the incoming DC-9 replacements.
The lowering cost structure and addition revenue opportunities will drop the operating costs of NWA down even further than the bankruptcy process could do, probably even below that of SWA.


Perhaps compass was created to increase the divide between the mainline and the regionals, of which only creates a surplus of pilots to the majors and a shortage to the regionals. We have seen that under the nature of how reghionals bid for contracts, no matter how much the company makes or a massive pilot shortage, the regionals pilots have little salary control.

For your ALPA answer always remember the loss of a carrier will cut off more revenue to that union than they can create even if it benifits other pilots. Also compass will generate more revenue for ALPA than that of XJ and 9E.