Will The AirTran Pilots' Windfall Be A Consideration?

[Ty Webb]

Ha! Get real! Seen our new payrates yet that went into effect with our new contract on Dec. 1st?

Yes, the AAI guys will get an increase in pay when they come in at SWA pay rates, and a fairly hefty one at that...but it won't be at the percentages you posted above.

Just using my 9 yr. longevity as an example, it will be 33%.

And what will we bring with us that will benefit you? Hmmm...how's about:

1. 138 aircraft (as of today), with more arriving in 2011.
2. 50 firm options
3. ATL - the world's busiest airport
4. International routes
5. And here's the gold coin: Critical Mass

We're not showing up hat in hand. The two combined airlines will now have the fire power (aka: Critical Mass) to hold their own against the combined DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL. Furthermore, nobody is taking away any SWA F/O upgrades. Our aircraft that we bring to the table are flown by our pilots. This fear mongering over upgrade times is baseless and pointless and only results in division/animosity where there should be unity. The combination of these two major airlines is going to mean huge growth for all of us.

This bears repeating, but I'm sure it will be lost on the serial posters here:

Furthermore, nobody is taking away any SWA F/O upgrades. Our aircraft that we bring to the table are flown by our pilots. This fear mongering over upgrade times is baseless and pointless and only results in division/animosity where there should be unity.

 

[Just thinking]

SWA is already reaping the benefits from the merger. What were your expectations last summer? (see below)

Southwest Airlines Reports Second Quarter EarningsDALLAS, July 29, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ --

"Given the current economic outlook and trends, we continue to approach route expansion through optimizing our flight schedule rather than fleet growth. We remain committed to reaching our financial targets before we return to any significant level of fleet growth. For 2010, our capacity will remain essentially flat with last year. For 2011, we are estimating a modest year-over-year capacity increase with no fleet growth. Although it is too early to commit, at present, we have no plans to grow the fleet in 2012, either. We will continue to monitor trends for changes and are prepared to adjust our schedule, accordingly."

I am happy for the growth for the SWA pilots. With appropriate fences all will be about the same in 3-5 years. The work ethic at AAI is outstanding and you have a professional pilot group that has succeeded IN SPITE of management. SWA has an outstanding work ethic that has succeeded WITH the support of management.

Looking forward to the future.

 

[redflyer65]

Ha! Get real! Seen our new payrates yet that went into effect with our new contract on Dec. 1st?

Yes, the AAI guys will get an increase in pay when they come in at SWA pay rates, and a fairly hefty one at that...but it won't be at the percentages you posted above.

Just using my 9 yr. longevity as an example, it will be 33%.

And what will we bring with us that will benefit you? Hmmm...how's about:

1. 138 aircraft (as of today), with more arriving in 2011.
2. 50 firm options
3. ATL - the world's busiest airport
4. International routes
5. And here's the gold coin: Critical Mass

We're not showing up hat in hand. The two combined airlines will now have the fire power (aka: Critical Mass) to hold their own against the combined DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL. Furthermore, nobody is taking away any SWA F/O upgrades. Our aircraft that we bring to the table are flown by our pilots. This fear mongering over upgrade times is baseless and pointless and only results in division/animosity where there should be unity. The combination of these two major airlines is going to mean huge growth for all of us.

Wow, not sure where to start with this one but I'll do the math.

First off, you have to use your original payscale that was used as a snapshot in Sept. I really like how you guys want to hold up the new one and say 'it isn't that much different now'.

But I'll do the public math anyway..

9yr AAI FO - 75/hr x 70 = 5250/month (original payscale)
9yr AAI FO - 97/hr x 70 = 6790/month (new payscale)

9yr SW FO - 124 trips for pay, mulitpied by a conservative rate of 1.15 (1.18 is closer to reality), equals 142.

142/hr x 70 = 9940/month that's a 90 percent increase off your original pay, or 46 percent increase off your new payrates. (which won't be used)

So instead of 50-80 percent, I should have use 46-90 percent. My bad.

At SW, that same 9yr FO can easy fly 110-115 trips a month making 13,600 for the month. That is the windfall no matter how you add the numbers.

Your 1-5 items are all good for the combined company, but what does the AAI contract bring for Southwest pilots vs the windfall for the AAI guys?

 

[atldc9]

Wow, not sure where to start with this one but I'll do the math.

First off, you have to use your original payscale that was used as a snapshot in Sept. I really like how you guys want to hold up the new one and say 'it isn't that much different now'.

But I'll do the public math anyway..

9yr AAI FO - 75/hr x 70 = 5250/month (original payscale)
9yr AAI FO - 97/hr x 70 = 6790/month (new payscale)

9yr SW FO - 124 trips for pay, mulitpied by a conservative rate of 1.15 (1.18 is closer to reality), equals 142.

142/hr x 70 = 9940/month that's a 90 percent increase off your original pay, or 46 percent increase off your new payrates. (which won't be used)

So instead of 50-80 percent, I should have use 46-90 percent. My bad.

At SW, that same 9yr FO can easy fly 110-115 trips a month making 13,600 for the month. That is the windfall no matter how you add the numbers.

Your 1-5 items are all good for the combined company, but what does the AAI contract bring for Southwest pilots vs the windfall for the AAI guys?

Just a quick question. What is the 9 year TFP rate for a SW FO? To make your above comparison accurate, just do the monthly TFP for SW 9 year FO x monthly guarantee(87?) compared to AAI's number above.

I'm not even remotely saying the SW guy doesn't make more, but your not making an accurate monthly comparison when you use an arbitrary conversion factor and 124 TFP, versus a min guarantee month at AAI.

FWIW

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Don't you guys ever get tired of this? It is out of our hands.

Merry Christmas!

 

[malibuVride]

...............

 

[Lonestar]

I see a couple points to clear up.
Ty, we'll start with you(for the record, the chinese menu comment was very funny!).

1) You reference your airline's growth. Don't forget your furlough during one of your 'banner years'; that's something SWA has never done.

2) Speaking of banner years, look at the value of your new contract compared to those banner years. Your airline, on its own, can barely afford your new contract. Our SWAPA contract would put AAI in the red!

3) You asked where SWA was 15 years ago. SWA and it's pilots were sharing amazing profits. While the wages were behind the industry, jthe profit sharing made more than a few millionaires. Nowhere in that history will you find a highly compensated mgmt dragging labor group through 5+ years of mediation!

Next, for Don Verita. WOW!!! 50 firm OPTIONS! If they were orders, they would still represent about 8.5% of our fleet. We have twice that in orders and options.

Finally, for atldc9. I believe the actual conversion factor for TFP to hourly is 1.1393, so the 1.15 wag was pretty close.

 

[Lonestar]

Furthermore, nobody is taking away any SWA F/O upgrades. Our aircraft that we bring to the table are flown by our pilots. This fear mongering over upgrade times is baseless and pointless and only results in division/animosity where there should be unity.[/B]

Ty, what you don't seem to get is that for every young AT pilot inserted above a SWA FO, that will certainly delay upgrade. Your group's youth is just part of the problem. Our group will retire infinitely more pilots over the next decade, more than half the total number of you group. The benefits of those retirements to a SWA FO will be offset by the injection of AT pilots in the combined list. I don't want to take you away from your aircraft, or ATL. But you want the type of system seniority that will allow you to go to any of the seven domociles we don't have in common and occupy left seats.

Upon further investigation, your group's youth can be directly attributed to years of hiring less experienced pilots. I'm not saying AT doesn't have experienced pilots, but there are plenty of cases of pilots with little to no PIC turbine. There are plenty among your ranks whose only PIC turbine is from Gulfstream (not a real job!). I know that over the last 5 years, your pilots' quals have come up a bit...but so has the average age of your newhires.

In fact, the ones that did have the experience to be selected to interview at SWA probably did. And were told NO THANKS. If you don't believe that ask nearly every member of you MEC/LEC and committee members.

 

[PapaWoody]

Just a quick question. What is the 9 year TFP rate for a SW FO? To make your above comparison accurate, just do the monthly TFP for SW 9 year FO x monthly guarantee(87?) compared to AAI's number above.

I'm not even remotely saying the SW guy doesn't make more, but your not making an accurate monthly comparison when you use an arbitrary conversion factor and 124 TFP, versus a min guarantee month at AAI.

FWIW

I was also a little confused when I read that, because our FO's probably do average 120+ trips for the month. But what he meant was $124 per trip x the conversion factor which is actually closer to 1.14 hr/trip (which isn't arbitrary, it is based on distance, time, and the fact that SWA has always had to reinvent the wheel). That would make our 9 yr. FO's hourly pay rate $141.36. Divide that by the two AAI pay rates in question and you get $141.36/$75 = 1.88 and $141.36/$97 = 1.46. So there is a 46-88% increase in pay just comparing the pay rates. We could throw in monthly guarantees and make it even more lopsided. AAI's monthly guarantee is 70 and ours is 89 trips divided by 1.14 trips/hr = 78 hrs monthly guarantee, resulting in a guaranteed monthly paycheck increase of more than 10%. However, I would like to point out that the only numbers that will be used in this process are the ones that were in place on Sep 27th; ie, AAI's new TA pay rates are immaterial.

And Lonestar, how dare you try to point out any past precedent that doesn't confirm Ty Webb and Angus' rose-colored view of the world of arbitration! That makes you guilty of fear-mongering and AAI pilot group bashing. Facts and common sense will not be tolerated!! :laugh:

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Bob Dylan]

This deal is DOA. SWA can never compromise their unique corporate culture, and as evidenced on here, most AirTran pilots don't have the same feelings and loyalty that got the SWA pilots their jobs.

I would expect GK to run both airlines separately, or call the deal off. He'd be crazy to integrate.

 

[GuppyWN]

I know there have been a number of opinions on the AT pilots' windfall and its relevance during SLI. Some have stated none of the numerous gains for the AT pilots can be considered during arbitration. A friend of mine from Chautauqua sent the results of their arbitration with Shuttle America. It was a 24-page document so I took several relevant quotes from the arbitrator in his summary and explanation.

>>>Arbitrator- Richard R. Kasher, Esquire
October 19, 2005

"It is clear, when one considers routes flown, cities serviced, the two carriers' relative financial condition, fleet size and fleet type, that the equities weigh so heavily on the side of the Chautauqua Pilots as to virtually obliterate any alleged equities that the Shuttle America Pilots claim they bring to the merger."

"Simply stated, the rates of pay, rules and working conditions in the Chautauqua Pilots' collective bargaining agreement, are far superior to those found in the Shuttle America Pilots' collective bargaining agreement. As a result of the acquisition Shuttle America Pilots will be the beneficiaries of the superior rates of pay, rules and working conditions found in the Chautauqua Pilots collective bargaining agreement."

"A date of hire seniority integration, while it might not significantly dilute the seniority of the Chautauqua Pilots, would, to some extent, constitute a WINDFALL BENEFIT for the Shuttle America Pilots."

"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."

"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."<<<

The arbitrator accepted the Chautauqua Pilots' proposal and as a result, the most senior Shuttle pilot was inserted at approximately 70% seniority and the Shuttle captains DID lose their seats.

Just another list of reasons why I think we will work this out WITHOUT an arbitrator. The 2% of us aren't true examples of the line pilot mentality.

Gup

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Here is a good primer on the McCaskill-Bond amendment, which pretty much makes all of your ridiculous arguments moot. It was written by the AFA for flight attendants, but it will serve you all well since all of your petty b1tching and sniping is acting like a bunch of flight attendants with PMS.

In summary, the merger must be "fair and equitable" and the Chautauqua/SA , AA/Reno, AA/TWA, and other decisions prior to it are made moot by it. Fire up google, read the actual law, and stop acting like a bunch of nancys.

http://www.afaairtran.com/documents/mccaskill.pdf

 

[vixin]

Just thinking,

I also found several ref. of your CEO saying the same and worse. Of course that thread was deleted and I am not willing to look them up and paste them again (SO it to could be deleted). Our growth was slowed so we could buy your company. Why is it so hard for the Tranny boys to see this? I suppose GK and Bob are just going to show everybody their cards for the heck of it.

 

[Kharma Police]

Just thinking,

I also found several ref. of your CEO saying the same and worse. Of course that thread was deleted and I am not willing to look them up and paste them again (SO it to could be deleted). Our growth was slowed so we could buy your company. Why is it so hard for the Tranny boys to see this? I suppose GK and Bob are just going to show everybody their cards for the heck of it.

To quote The Dude from, The Big Lebowski, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[Kharma Police]

This deal is DOA. SWA can never compromise their unique corporate culture, and as evidenced on here, most AirTran pilots don't have the same feelings and loyalty that got the SWA pilots their jobs.

I would expect GK to run both airlines separately, or call the deal off. He'd be crazy to integrate.

Quick!, Quick!, go call your broker and put in a short sale order for AirTran!!!!!