Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[GhettoBeechjet]

Timeout:


Lots of people here that are taking themselves far too seriously. All that had been established here over and over again is that:


1. The Airtran guys feel like relative seniority is the only fair and equitable solution. They are sure that is what they will be awarded in arbitration.

2. The SWA guys feel that relative seniority would be a windfall for the Airtran guys given the age and contractual differances between the companys. They are sure an arbitrator will not rule this way.

3. The Airtran guys don't feel that the contractual gains will be a factor in the arbitration and the SWA guys disagree.

Reality check:

Nothing is going to be solved on this forum. No one is going to change anyones mind.

This thing will get resolved and there is a good chance it will be in arbitration. There are 100s of ways that an arbitrator could look at this and for anyone who is not an attorney that specializes in airline RLA airline seniority list mergers in a post Bond McCaskill environment to predict an outcome is just silly.

That being said whatever the outcome of the SLI is the worst thing we can do long term for our collective carriers is to have this thing turn out like USAir/AWA. Soon we will all have to live in the same house and it will be far better if we choose to get along. Nothing is being solved here. The only thing thats happening is that the animosity is being created and the rhetoric keeps getting louder. Is this what we really want to create?

Ghetto

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, you better hope it goes a little better for SWA pilots than your "expert opinion" or it will go to a "Morris solution", go look that up.

Sorry, I'm done with debating SLI. See my previous post.

And Ty, you still haven't answered your premise that the SWAPA CBA will be changed and how, so what say you?

It's not my premise. Call your SWAPA Rep and have them explain it to you, or simply review your CBA with an eye toward modifications that would have to be made in regards to inevitable or likely changes from the pending merger.

It's not a whole new CBA, but several sections will require modification.

 

[Flyarcticcat]

I get the bitterness. I get the arrogance. I get the fear. Who wouldn't want their cake and eat it too.

Career expectations for a pilot starts with DOH. Then you go to pay, benefits, seniority, and other QOL issues (vacation, schedule, work rules, etc)

You use these elements to determine "fair and equitable". The pay for an AT captain is similar to an SWA fo. SWA benefits are better to much better than AT. Other QOL issues are much, much better than AT. The gains for the AT guys up to this point are more than substantial. They are life changing. So what is equitable for the SWA pilots.
The only issue left is seniority.

There must be balance in the arbitrators eyes. And the AT pilots have nothing to bring as an enhancement to the table.

I read the fear in some of the AT pilots on this board. You need not be fearful of losing relative seniority. You are enormously better off being purchased by SWA.

Very well said.

There is nothing stopping an arbitrator from determining that fair and equitable equals a staple of Airtran pilots under SWA pilots. As stated above QOL, Pay and stability would be increased and each Airtran pilot would still have the same number of pilots currently below them as they do now. That is the gamble of going to Arbitration.

 

[Lear70]

Very well said.

There is nothing stopping an arbitrator from determining that fair and equitable equals a staple of Airtran pilots under SWA pilots. As stated above QOL, Pay and stability would be increased and each Airtran pilot would still have the same number of pilots currently below them as they do now. That is the gamble of going to Arbitration.

Like I said, the ultimate windfall for AirTran would be PURE relative seniority, the pilots hired at Southwest before AirTran even existed notwithstanding. That would mean our number 1 guy slotting right behind your number 1 guy and so on in a relative position pairing by percentile, even though that would disregard 20+ years of additional longevity. That would be a windfall.

The ultimate windfall for Southwest would be any sort of staple of a large percentage of our seniority list under yours as was mentioned earlier.

Neither one is going to happen.

That's not arrogance. That's not anger. Just stating a very simple fact. Both of those are the very definition of "windfall" and neither one is realistically going to occur. If you think it is, well, no amount of FI debate is going to convince you and I would suggest you contact your reps and get in touch with more realistic expectations.

Something fair is in the middle.

 

[funnyman12]

I find the amount of SWA guys insisting on a staple as being fair is proof of the fear they have. Im 25% up the Airtran sen list. If this merger never happens and there is a terrorist attack next year, i would most likely keep my job. Let's imagine the worst case scenario and AT furloughed 20%. I would keep my job. If i was stapled to the combined list and Sea furloughed 5% for their first time id be on the street. If they furloughed 10% half of airtran would be on the street. You could pay $500/hr and it wouldn't matter. Sounds like TWA/AA. Oh wait this law with the whole" fair and equitable" was created because of the staple, and AT is not in BK and healthy. Sorry SWA staple fans, ain't gonna happen.

 

[GuppyWN]

Ty,

I've found my happy place too since there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. Welcome back!

Without debating SLI's with you can I ask you a serious, honest question?

If Airtran bought Virgin America what would you consider "fair and equitable?"

I'm not trying to box you in, I"m just curious what your thoughts are?

Gup

 

[roughneck]

Does Virgin have guys on furlough? Serious question. Not sure if Virgin is a fair example to compare with.

 

[GuppyWN]

Virgin is hiring.

Gup

 

[Dash Power]

I agree with you 100% Lear 70.

The given windfall, without any control, are the extreme gains your airline's pilots will be experiencing when we operate like one company. Many of your pilots feel that we are giving up nothing for your gains. Over all the years I can't even begin to list all the sacrifice the pilots of Southwest have given to earn the contract you will soon celebrate. Now we can all agree how disrespectful that attitude appears.

I don't want to read this board and think I don't want anything to do with Airtran pilots. Acknowledging that relative seniority is as unfair as a complete staple is more of a good place to start in discussing our two companies working together.

 

[funnyman12]

Hello...staple will never happen. TWA/AA was the reason for the whole "fair and equitable" thingy. You silly forum guys can convince yourself all day that a staple is fair, but it aint gonna happen kiddies. I agree pure relative seniority ain't happen either. I think in the end we will find a fair middle ground and continue being successful, but we will be one airline.