Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Will of ALPA Pilots?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
SlipItIn, Well the big reason for change is to be ICAO compliant so I don't see how they will slip that in.ATA can try if they want but seems i doubt they will get a change.

We'll see. Generally, what the ATA wants the ATA gets. Remember, this provision is about fast-tracking the change. This is an ALPA offensive to ward off the known ATA opposition to quick implementation of the change. This is the shotgun method of getting this dog through... ALPA has long stopped considering the due diligence the FAA NPRM mentioned (that has yet to even be put forth yet). The party has started! There is big money sitting on the table for the old guys and the end game is within their reach... and every bit of due diligence is being trampled in the process.

See the 7th bullet point down on Prater's "money grab" manifesto:

ALPA will now turn its attention to working to advocate the following priorities contained in the resolution:
  • Appropriate legislative language to prevent retroactive application of a change to the Age 60 Rule, to the effect that: “No person over 60, except active flight deck crewmembers, on the effective date may serve as a pilot (captain or first officer) for a Part 121 airline unless such person is newly hired as a pilot on or after such effective date without credit for prior seniority or prior longevity for benefits or other terms related to length of service prior to the date of rehire under any labor agreement or employment policies of the air carrier.”
  • Appropriate legislative language to ensure stronger liability protection for airlines and pilot unions in implementing a change to the rule, to the effect that: “Any action in conformance with this Act or with a regulation under this Act may not serve as a basis for liability or relief before any court or agency of the United States, or of any state or locality, nor may any action taken prior to the effective date of enactment on the basis of section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations as then in effect.”
  • Ensuring that, under a defined benefit retirement plan, a change to the Age 60 Rule will not reduce a participant’s or beneficiary’s accrued benefit nor reduce a benefit to which a participant or beneficiary would have been entitled without enactment of such a change to the Rule.
  • Opposing any additional age-related diagnostic medical testing.
  • Opposing any attempt by the FAA to obtain greater access to pilot medical records.
  • Supporting FAA Air Surgeon Tilton’s recommendation to require a 1st Class Medical certification every six months for pilots over age 60.
  • Opposing for domestic operation the implementation of the ICAO standard that at least one pilot in the cockpit be under age 60. Once sufficient data on pilots over age 60 becomes available, unless the necessity for this mitigation for the long term is clearly shown, advocate for removal of the ICAO over/under mitigation for all operations.
  • Support the ability of a pilot to retire prior to the mandatory age without penalty.
 
ALPA has chosen to ignore the will of the majority at it's own peril. Ask me how I NOW feel about crossing a picket line.

Andy:
I hope you're just saying that because you're mad. I know many EAL pilots who would not be too happy with what you are saying.
I sure hope you have a REAL explanation as to why you'd cross a picket line!?

737
 
Slip. Then ATA would end up right back where they started because the international guys will need a FO under sixty.
 
Slip. Then ATA would end up right back where they started because the international guys will need a FO under sixty.

Umm... OK. INTL often needs an IRO or two as well. Not sure I see your point. In fact, I am not sure we have been on the same page all along. Can you elaborate? Thanks!
 
Sad Legacy for ALPA

The numbers are even more lop-sided for us to pull out of Iraq. When you elect people to represent you, you can't expect them to always do what "you" (or even the majority) think is the right thing. Welcome to representative democracy. Did you all sleep through high school civics classes or did you take home economics instead?

Yes, but the difference is that 75% of the country was for proactive intervention in Iraq to stop any WMD which in hindsight turned out not to be present, now were in the "pottery barn" rule arena where if you break it, you fix it, but unfortunately it's in a million little pieces and were running out of superglue. Now the masses supposedly want to cut and run yet most of them couldn't begin to imagine the implications of that on Americas long term future.

So using the hindsight of the Iraq situation and applying it to the age 65 debate, wouldn't a better position for ALPA to take be to say officially we are against the age 65 change for all these reasons, but continue to work with the FAA and congress to steer any potential change into the least harmful to the profession? I fear that this decision alone by ALPA has done more harm towards ever having one union, let alone any kind of solidarity for many decades to come. A sad legacy Mr. Prater, but what does he care, he got his! The damage will be done, and he will be thrown out and/or the bottom half of the union will become so indifferent they won't get them to show up for free pizza anymore.

What's funny is how Woerth used to be criticized for turning a new leaf with pilot groups that even contained scabs and welcoming them in or back in to the ALPA fold under the overriding idea that the more percentage of pilots that ALPA represented, the stronger the union. Prater has just flushed this down the toilet.
 
I removed my ALPA pin from my uniform yesterday.

Reading the USA Today saying pilots of ALPA overwhelmingly voted to support change by 80% is nothing but pure fraud. I want to see the exec board removed and perhaps even ALPA national leadership.

I expect big business to fk us.
I don't expect it but notice congress fk us.
I absoutely did not expect ALPA to fk us.

If this was the will of the pilots. Fine I would accept it. But 53.7% FOR (keeping age 60) and 42% against is NOT a mandate and is certainly NOT an 80% landslide victory. I will be asking the DOL to look in to this.
 
Slip. Read my original post #25. What I'm saying is we have more than one issue to fight and judgments have to be made politically.ALPA decided they couldn't win and moved to a different strategy.
 
Last edited:
Probably doesn't matter

I am a pilot strongly opposed to the changing of the age 60 rule. Additionally, I think that Congress should keep their paws off of this one. I recently flew with a Captain who is for the change (he is 57) and informed me that Congress is looking to fast track the change and impose it themselves on the FAA. I am strongly against the change, but if I have to take it I think the Notice of Proposed Rule Making process is the way to go. Anyway, my point of this post is that you can email your Senators and Representative very easily. Just google the US Senate and the US House of Rep. It may not accomplish anything but it seems there is no coalition for accomplishing this task. As a furloughed ALPA member, I am freakin upset by the ALPA leadership. Here at AirTran, NAPA is for the change on this issue too. Past mistakes/airline bankruptcies are a part of this career we choose and should not be used against us so called younger guys. My dad is 68 years old and retired from NWA and I asked him recently about the age 60 rule since he does not keep abreast of airline issues anymore. Here is the email response he sent me:


"It will be interesting to see how many serious health problems
occur in flt as time goes on. I know most of us flying international were
very happy to make it to age 60. I think many pilots that fly to age 65 will not live very long after 65. This flying business is hard on the old body. Their
loved ones will enjoy all their money made between 60-65."
 
As for crossing picket lines. Myself I would not do it, but there is little harm in the threat since we all know ALPA has no balls and will never strike. Especially if it might harm the senior guys chances of having that career another 5 years.
 
Rez:
I too am dissapointed in the turn out for this poll!
I guess most people didn't care or thought it would not effect them negatively. My how times have changed.
One thing remains constant. The more things change, the more they remain the same. The younger pilots will continue to get (insert curse word here) over by the older more senior pilots!

737

Took the 15 minutes to fill out the survey!

Most of the guys that I urged to take the poll said,"Why they are going to do what they want anyway." I guess they were right.
 
Most of the guys that I urged to take the poll said,"Why they are going to do what they want anyway." I guess they were right.

Listen, any young or junior pilot who didn't fill out the survey ought to be terminated for deriliction of duty in my opinion. We had 3 frigging weeks to get this thing in. Y'all who didn't fill this out, it was a survey, not a ditch digging assignment. How hard can it be to fill out a survey?

ALPA voter apathy angers me because these same idiots expect us to fight for their rights and enhancements come contract time. Get involved or get out of the business! Just as you are responsible to put the gear down prior to landing, so too are you equally repsonsible for filling out surveys that affect us all.

To those who are angry over ALPA's Exec Board arrogance, email and write letters to your reps. Demand an explanation. This is less about a change in the rule than it is about ALPA violating the will of the majority.
 
Rez... you sound like a broken record. Please change your tune. So what if we had 100% participation - would it have made any difference? I truly doubt it.

Just trying to envoke something we can control: our own activism.


ALPA is outdated and irrelevant.

So then what?


When is the membership going to take responsibility for themselves...
 
Rez... you sound like a broken record. Please change your tune. So what if we had 100% participation - would it have made any difference? I truly doubt it.

Let me guess.. you're going to say this is my other screen name :rolleyes:


Listen, any young or junior pilot who didn't fill out the survey ought to be terminated for deriliction of duty in my opinion. We had 3 frigging weeks to get this thing in. Y'all who didn't fill this out, it was a survey, not a ditch digging assignment. How hard can it be to fill out a survey?

ALPA voter apathy angers me because these same idiots expect us to fight for their rights and enhancements come contract time. Get involved or get out of the business! Just as you are responsible to put the gear down prior to landing, so too are you equally repsonsible for filling out surveys that affect us all.

To those who are angry over ALPA's Exec Board arrogance, email and write letters to your reps. Demand an explanation. This is less about a change in the rule than it is about ALPA violating the will of the majority.
 
I don't know, our MEC came out and told us what they were going to do before the survey even closed, so I don't know why it matters if you participated in it or not. It is perfectly clear that Prater and the FedEx MEC (and surely others) were in favor of this position all along and finally found a way to fast track it.

I used to have ALPA Member as my caption under my sign on. I no longer am proud of my union, so I am just a regular forum member now. I also shiitcanned my ALPA lanyard for my last trip.

After we get done recalling the entire MEC/LECs at FedEx maybe we can do the same to Prater.

I don't care about the law changing, it will or it won't. But I can't see allowing the leadership of the union to completely ignore the will of the majority of the members.

Let the recalls begin.

FJ
 
Rez... in all your diatribe, you're avoiding one question - sure, a number of people didn't vote, but what about the ones who did and voiced their opinions? Do we neglect them? Do we neglect the elections where only 48% of the eligible voters come out and actually vote?

I agree with Falconjet... let the recalls begin.
 
An ALPA carrier will never strike.

NWA pilots didn't even support the strike of another union at an ALPA carrier.

If a strike did occur at an ALPA carrier which it won't, the ALPA Eagle, ALPA XJT, ALPA Mesa, ALPA Pinnacle and Mesaba, and other ALPA code share carriers would take over the domestic flying and keep the carrier fully functional with ALPA nationals support. And concerning the international flying every over 60 pilot allowed to continue to fly would cross the pick line the day the strike occurred keeping the international flying of the concerned carrier fully functional.

So as NWA management all showed us a strike does nothing to a limit a managements bargaining position.

The code shares will keep the domestic running and over 60 scabs will keep the international running.

Any pilot who wants to fly past 60 has already declared himself a scab!!!!
 
rez, that's a rediculously stupid argument for tossing aside an 11% percent split between those in favor and opposing a change. But I've learned to expect that from you.

ALPA has chosen to ignore the will of the majority at it's own peril. Ask me how I NOW feel about crossing a picket line.

OK. How do you feel about crossing a picket line? Didn't get your way so you're going to take your ball and go home (and be a scab.)
 
If you're going to jack up Andy, then do the same to the first over 60 CA or FO you fly with! Andy is just talking about it (that's all), the age 65 crowd is actually laying plans.
 
a. As to our education, I'd be more than willing to swap transcripts with you, if you're interested.

b. Representative democracy is not a license to be a dictator. The feedback loop has to be much shorter than what you're describing.

c. If 2006 didn't convince you, wait for 2008. Americans understand that indeed they CAN expect your representatives to do what they think is the right thing, or they get to U-Haul their asses home. Americans are going to vote for the candidate who will be most likely to clean up W's messes. They're even considering a Clinton again....


a. And then what? See who has the nicest car, hottest wife, biggest d1ck?

c. That would be nice if it had any resemblance to the truth. Most Americans are sheep and will follow the flock. They will vote for who their parents voted for. They will vote their party ticket. They will vote for who Fox/CNN tell them they should vote for. They will vote for whoever has the catcthiest sound bites, regardless of content. They will vote for the one that has spent the $$ to be recognized. And sadly, most are to apathetic and/or ignorant to vote period.
 
If you're going to jack up Andy, then do the same to the first over 60 CA or FO you fly with! Andy is just talking about it (that's all), the age 65 crowd is actually laying plans.

He made the threat. I think he can take up for himself. And when an over 60 F/O or Captain tells me he is going to be a scab, I will jack him up too.
 
Rez... in all your diatribe, you're avoiding one question - sure, a number of people didn't vote, but what about the ones who did and voiced their opinions? Do we neglect them? Do we neglect the elections where only 48% of the eligible voters come out and actually vote?

I answered it.... maybe in another thread... the leadership can simply choose to go in the direction they see best as the was no majority particaption. However, one could argue that choosing not to vote is a vote for the status quo...

but one could also argue that apathy means indifference on the issue. The only way to be clear or ensure that no one else speaks for another is to be active.

We can keep going around, but it always comes back to membership actvisim as being the key to our effectiveness...

I agree with Falconjet... let the recalls begin.

Respectfully, I don't think the apathetic, lack of expereinced and unorganized membership has the political savvy to pull it off....

It would take some reaserch on my part to run an effective recall. I am curious if you or FJ could provide a map to the process?
 
Last edited:
I answered it.... maybe in another thread... the leadership can simply choose to go in the direction they see best as the was no majority particaption. However, one could argue that choosing not to vote is a vote for the status quo...

but one could also argue that apathy means indifference on the issue. The only way to be clear or ensure that no one else speaks for another is to be active.

We can keep going around, but it always comes back to membership actvisim as being the key to our effectiveness...



Respectfully, I don't think the apathetic, lack of expereinced and unorganized membership has the political savvy to pull it off....

It would take some reaserch on my part to run an effective recall. I am curious if you or FJ could provide a map to the process?

Systemite, fascist ramblings.

You won't save ALPA, you're what ails it.
 
Last edited:
He made the threat. I think he can take up for himself. And when an over 60 F/O or Captain tells me he is going to be a scab, I will jack him up too.

Yes Andy can stick up for himself, but your ignorant attitude bothers me. Whether you want to work over age 60, or you want to cross a picket line, both are forms of seniority aggression. Guys that can't get this stuff straight need to think about what they're really talking about. Wait and see what comes after this change and what this whole elder crowd actually wants to do and we'll all be wishing it was a simple cross of a picket line.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom