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Will EJA and EJI Merge Operations?

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My understanding is that Gulfstream pay for the EJI guys STINKS relative to most coporate operators. I wouldn't be surpised if a lot of the EJI guys would actually WELCOME some union protection...

I doubt type-rated Gulfstream pilots would be sent to Ultra FO positions - that doesn't sound reasonable given the training costs.

Regardless, a merger of pilot groups makes the most sense...
 
Right

the child like attitudes expressed here are why this industry condems itself to be so screwed up all the time.

The fact is that none of you own one single bit of any flying done by any of you period. It is that same idiotic speal that airline types spew constantly.

By the way, single carrier status has nothing to do with this type company.
 
On Your Six said:
... I realize that the separation was instigated by Gulfstream and Ted Forstmann when EJI was set up (didn't want union on the property). Now that Boisture is in, there is no reason to keep them separate any more - that just adds to the cost...


That's my $0.2



Not true. The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to get along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. It was jointly decided that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture in that safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry leading (and still are).

Within a year EJI was profitable enough to give back the original three core aircraft and purchase their own to replace them.

Other than for maintenance, joint marketing and sales is the only relationship currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

As an aside, I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union operation and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. We had a couple of 1/8 th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Bluffton leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with things just as they are.

As yet another aside, I find it interesting to note that NJA has broken their agreement with Boeing, is returning three BBJ's, and will be operating the remaining three Boeings as primarily charter aircraft.


GV







.
 
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GV Flyer,

Wow - I stand corrected on a few issues - thanks for clearing them up. I suppose unionization is not for everyone... Regardless, in this case I don't see how maintaining separate pilot forces would be good for the operation on an economic basis. Sure, merging pilot groups will NEVER BE PRETTY, but sometimes it is a necessity.

There must be an equitable DOH formula that can be used in this case - one that perhaps does not displace Gulfstream pilots who want to stay in the aircraft - some pilots might welcome a change...

How does that sound?
 
Cat, as a 7 year Capt at NJA, I will put my pay against yours on a per day of work basis anyday, and that is before the new contract. I dont know where you think that any other fractional pays more after a few years. Fact is they dont, and we dont get put back to year 1 pay when we change airplanes. Also we have PROTECTED rest, PROTECTED rights, and PROTECTED jobs. We recently had a pilot rehired after the union steped up and said BS as to why the company fired him. When is the last time a pilot was fired at any other fractional and then hired back when the charge was found to be bogus?

As far as NJI goes, most dont want them in our ranks. With the Falcon 200ex's coming next year, and most likely the Falcons 7x's coming after, and the possibilty of ssbj's in the future, we really dont need them. We all know where ANY other plane that comes to netjets will go. NJA (Thanks union!). Must have hurt for NJI to see those G200's and G150's coming our way. The writing is on the wall. Also, talking to the union lawyer, single carrier status does apply, and after the contract, the membership will decide whether or not we file it (Thanks for the choice union).

The Boeing-Netjets is ending, to the dismay of Boeing, who is fighting it every step of the way. They wanted out when the economy was bad and we werent chartering them. Now that they are flying there azzes off, they did a flip flop. Either way their core aircraft will be ours and they will be out of the program by the end of the year (Thanks union).

The IBT and Netjets has been laughed at and called names since I came here, funny thing is our current contract is better already than any other out there. So laugh away naysayers. He who laughs last laughs best. :D
 
Griz said:
Oh Yaakster,

This is why I like our little exchanges, and why you're my favorite Griz.... you're always making me laugh.

If you really had a clue as to how things operate at NetJets, you'd realize how silly your argument is. But then again, you don't really care about the facts...you've made up your mind to dislike NetJets and our union no matter what.

JAYsus, haven't you read any of my posts? I don't dislike NJA or your little union, and in fact my dislike for low-pay, PFT, and training contracts in business aviation doesn't automatically extend to the pilots who were either too ignorant or too hard up to refuse them.

What I DO dislike, however, are those who do accept them, and then go on to grow into that smallest yet screechiest of birds we sometimes have to share the sky with...the Self-important Puffy-chested Card-waver... who thinks union membership alone erases their industry-lowering actions, or somehow entitles them to the job of someone else who had either the experience or the stones to make a better deal for employment. You just happen to have a whole flock of them over there.

More power to you pal. I just wonder what you're gonna be doing after we get your principal as a customer.

There you go again with that funny Thug Routine thing you do. But you said "get my principal", as in.."get my principals to sell their airplanes so you can fly them around"? Ok, now I have this sharp pain in my guts from laughing. Tell you what Griz, I'll make this solemn promise to you; the day NetJets gets the juice to topple a couple foreign governments and dictate terms to people who familys' have been calling the shots there for a few centuries, then that's the day I'll begin to worry about you taking my job.

Besides, they want to know who's up in the cockpit flying them, not strangers-wearing-stripes, so that pretty much rules out your revolving door operation. And worse for your prediction, unions are illegal here. For those reasons alone, let alone the others, it looks like you won't be absorbing this flight department anytime soon with me getting the subsequent NJA job offer if you did (He11, if that happened I might just go to work there for awhile so I could really piss you off..you know..just for fun). But don't give up hope, you can always quit NJA, resign your seniority, and apply for work here if you still have dreams of being my gear b1tch.

We fly Gulfstream customers in EJA aircraft all the time. They fly EJA customers in Gulfstreams all the time.


I know how your company works with them. It's no mystery, nor has it ever been. I've known this for....um....lets see (checking my watch)... almost a decade now. And by the way, those aren't "customers", they're owners, a distinction not all that important until you get into tax issues and/or the terms of contract regarding how they wind up on your aircraft and vice versa.

We all fall under the NetJets corporate umbrella. They have a sizable presence in Columbus. This is one company and eventually will be one pilot group.

Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over ad infinitum doesn't make it so. Falling under the same "corproate umbrella" does NOT mean NJA and NJI are "one company", in either a real or legal sense. Do you know how many "corporate umbrellas" work under this same basic setup? Don't try stamping your feet...that won't change what is a basic Business 101 concept either.

At that time, all the gnashing of teeth and wailing will not change the fact that those guys are going to lose out on the seniority issues. They chose to work at a non-union leg of a union company. So sorry for them.


Well, if we ever all wake up in some sort of hell-world where this fantasies like yours come true, I hope you end up sharing a cockpit with some of those you're now dreaming of screwing over.

The rest of your drivel is just that...not gonna waste my time with it.

I can understand why you'd like to believe the rest of it is drivel, since it deals mostly with the issue of making your own bed in that seedy motel you think is a convent.
 
CE750Driver said:
Cat, as a 7 year Capt at NJA, I will put my pay against yours on a per day of work basis anyday, and that is before the new contract.

I don't think you want to do that, either on an annual (and I've only been here a couple years) or a per day basis. I know about how much you make as a 7-year X captain at NJA and the time off. Duty-wise I get as many scheduled days off as I work. But wer're comparing green apples to red apples, since I don't work for a fractional.
 
gunfyter said:
Cat,

Unlike some of my brethren... I am of the opinion there is nothing whatever to this speculation. As I said, I am happy with the way it is now. It is reported that several high company officers have specifically denied that anything like this will happen... when directly asked.

Forced? How could they be forced? Do they have no say in their fate? Oh, yeah I forgot... they don't have a union.... They are at the complete mercy of the whims of management. This mythical merger is not a union invention you know.

but FORCED? No I don't think its polite... but its not my fault someone chooses to be subject to the whims of management to do such a thing.

Gun,

Please refer to the third post of this thread, courtesy of Griz...the one that prompted my response. He speaks of it as a union invention, not management. If it were a management invention doing it to non-union pilots then I'd be there with you saying "tough luck" and "don't butt in line".

How could they be forced? That's a question for Griz, since by his post he seems to think that your pilot group will demand that non-union pilots not be allowed to fly your airplanes, and that the Gulfstreams are included in the category of being "yours". Isn't a potential union-generated lawsuit forcing NJA, and by extention NJI pilots, into a single entity all about?
 
CatYaaak said:
I don't think you want to do that, either on an annual (and I've only been here a couple years) or a per day basis. I know about how much you make as a 7-year X captain at NJA and the time off. Duty-wise I get as many scheduled days off as I work. But wer're comparing green apples to red apples, since I don't work for a fractional.

Uhh, lets see, this year you may be right, I had a baby and wanted to stay home.... last year 68 extended days. Think $526 a day not including per diem or overtime, plus my base pay. This year in the non BBJ guys, one was over 200 grand, and alot (I think about 20 or so) were over 120. All our BBJ guys were around 200. MMMMM. Teamsters do suck, and you must have a dream corporate gig Yak. But like you said, green apples to red apples. When will we IBT guys learn.
 
CE750Driver said:
...and you must have a dream corporate gig Yak. But like you said, green apples to red apples.

Yes, the money's great, but the schedule is awesome, so that's about the size of it.
 
Getting back to the original question that started all this: How would I [the pilots] like a merger? Well, let me see. I get to join a union, pay union dues, and in exchange, I lose my Gulfstream seat, take a pay cut, work with folks who are so concerned about their union work rules that they care nothing about owner staisfaction (e.g. walking off a jet full of owners because your duty day was going to extend 15 MINUTES, and leaving them there as we walked up to ask them where their crew had gone..."They went to the hotel!"), and generally dislike management.

Ah....I'll pass, thank you very much. Nothing personal, but I'll just pass. I don't get it. Why would I want a union when I work for a company that pays me well, and treats me well? Am I missing something here? NJI has done things for me and my family in my short time with them that I know NO other company would have done. NJI management prides itself for that type of care; with good reason.

So that's my $.02 in answer to the original post. I don't care to argue because, for what it's worth, this rumor has been around for too long to mean much any more. If it's true, EVERYONE at NJI will be completely blind-sided, because as someone pointed out above, management has assured us it ain't gonna happen, so they must be pretty clueless I guess. Maybe the union knows something no one else does. Hell, they should for all the money they scam from pilots for cheesy contracts.

Ok I love you bye bye!
 
zman- I'm going to try and answer your questions honestly. here goes.

work with folks who are so concerned about their union work rules that they care nothing about owner staisfaction (e.g. walking off a jet full of owners because your duty day was going to extend 15 MINUTES, and leaving them there as we walked up to ask them where their crew had gone..."They went to the hotel!"), and generally dislike management.

14 hrs is a long day. I'm not sure of your work rules but 14hrs is max for us. Some people can fly 16hrs without feeling tired and some people can fly less and feel just as equally as fatigued. At what point does flying over 15 minutes past 14hrs become 20 minutes then 30. If pilot A will fly 15 minutes past and pilot B refuses to why should there be two sets of rules. Why should someone say hey pilot A will do it why won't you fly fatigued? Our contract creats equal and defined rules for all pilots.

Another point is that we don't get paid for flying past 14hrs. I've done it because I got stuck in a hold and overflew my 14hrs. The company wouldn't pay one dime.

Do i take pride in my work? Of course I do. Do I enjoy pissing off the owners? Not one bit. The thing is the company is usually notified all day that we would be unable to do the trip past 14hrs. Yet they keep trying and we have to explain to the owners that the company knew about the problem since the first thing in the morning and they haven't done a thing to fix the problem.

Local 284 has improved your life and you haven't even had to pay dues. You know that new hotel in TEB? That was our travel comittee who set that up. Notice all the hotels are now under the same standard of things to eat, things to do, stuff like that? That's been our union setting that stuff up. You get to have the benefit of local 284's hard work.

Your 7n7? We had that first. It was set up by my union.

Do i dislike managment? Nope... I just don't trust them.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Don't worry I'll still say hi on the crew bus but you guys probably won't. :)
 
Diesel said:
14 hrs is a long day. I'm not sure of your work rules but 14hrs is max for us. Some people can fly 16hrs without feeling tired and some people can fly less and feel just as equally as fatigued. At what point does flying over 15 minutes past 14hrs become 20 minutes then 30. If pilot A will fly 15 minutes past and pilot B refuses to why should there be two sets of rules. Why should someone say hey pilot A will do it why won't you fly fatigued? Our contract creats equal and defined rules for all pilots.

Here's a serious question regarding your rules...not smart-assy or anything.

Aren't you allowed to extend your duty day over 14 up to 16 with compensatory rest?
 
The way it was explained to me by one of your pilots, you may extend beyond 14 hours, but if you do so you will not get any extra pay as you do between 12 and 14 hours. Makes sense - the Union does not want to encourage duty time beyond 14 hours.
 

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