Will EJA and EJI Merge Operations?

[CatYaaak]

Oh Yaakster,

This is why I like our little exchanges, and why you're my favorite Griz.... you're always making me laugh.

If you really had a clue as to how things operate at NetJets, you'd realize how silly your argument is. But then again, you don't really care about the facts...you've made up your mind to dislike NetJets and our union no matter what.

JAYsus, haven't you read any of my posts? I don't dislike NJA or your little union, and in fact my dislike for low-pay, PFT, and training contracts in business aviation doesn't automatically extend to the pilots who were either too ignorant or too hard up to refuse them.

What I DO dislike, however, are those who do accept them, and then go on to grow into that smallest yet screechiest of birds we sometimes have to share the sky with...the Self-important Puffy-chested Card-waver... who thinks union membership alone erases their industry-lowering actions, or somehow entitles them to the job of someone else who had either the experience or the stones to make a better deal for employment. You just happen to have a whole flock of them over there.

More power to you pal. I just wonder what you're gonna be doing after we get your principal as a customer.

There you go again with that funny Thug Routine thing you do. But you said "get my principal", as in.."get my principals to sell their airplanes so you can fly them around"? Ok, now I have this sharp pain in my guts from laughing. Tell you what Griz, I'll make this solemn promise to you; the day NetJets gets the juice to topple a couple foreign governments and dictate terms to people who familys' have been calling the shots there for a few centuries, then that's the day I'll begin to worry about you taking my job.

Besides, they want to know who's up in the cockpit flying them, not strangers-wearing-stripes, so that pretty much rules out your revolving door operation. And worse for your prediction, unions are illegal here. For those reasons alone, let alone the others, it looks like you won't be absorbing this flight department anytime soon with me getting the subsequent NJA job offer if you did (He11, if that happened I might just go to work there for awhile so I could really piss you off..you know..just for fun). But don't give up hope, you can always quit NJA, resign your seniority, and apply for work here if you still have dreams of being my gear b1tch.

We fly Gulfstream customers in EJA aircraft all the time. They fly EJA customers in Gulfstreams all the time.

I know how your company works with them. It's no mystery, nor has it ever been. I've known this for....um....lets see (checking my watch)... almost a decade now. And by the way, those aren't "customers", they're owners, a distinction not all that important until you get into tax issues and/or the terms of contract regarding how they wind up on your aircraft and vice versa.

We all fall under the NetJets corporate umbrella. They have a sizable presence in Columbus. This is one company and eventually will be one pilot group.

Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over ad infinitum doesn't make it so. Falling under the same "corproate umbrella" does NOT mean NJA and NJI are "one company", in either a real or legal sense. Do you know how many "corporate umbrellas" work under this same basic setup? Don't try stamping your feet...that won't change what is a basic Business 101 concept either.

At that time, all the gnashing of teeth and wailing will not change the fact that those guys are going to lose out on the seniority issues. They chose to work at a non-union leg of a union company. So sorry for them.

Well, if we ever all wake up in some sort of hell-world where this fantasies like yours come true, I hope you end up sharing a cockpit with some of those you're now dreaming of screwing over.

The rest of your drivel is just that...not gonna waste my time with it.

I can understand why you'd like to believe the rest of it is drivel, since it deals mostly with the issue of making your own bed in that seedy motel you think is a convent.

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat, as a 7 year Capt at NJA, I will put my pay against yours on a per day of work basis anyday, and that is before the new contract.

I don't think you want to do that, either on an annual (and I've only been here a couple years) or a per day basis. I know about how much you make as a 7-year X captain at NJA and the time off. Duty-wise I get as many scheduled days off as I work. But wer're comparing green apples to red apples, since I don't work for a fractional.

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat,

Unlike some of my brethren... I am of the opinion there is nothing whatever to this speculation. As I said, I am happy with the way it is now. It is reported that several high company officers have specifically denied that anything like this will happen... when directly asked.

Forced? How could they be forced? Do they have no say in their fate? Oh, yeah I forgot... they don't have a union.... They are at the complete mercy of the whims of management. This mythical merger is not a union invention you know.

but FORCED? No I don't think its polite... but its not my fault someone chooses to be subject to the whims of management to do such a thing.

Gun,

Please refer to the third post of this thread, courtesy of Griz...the one that prompted my response. He speaks of it as a union invention, not management. If it were a management invention doing it to non-union pilots then I'd be there with you saying "tough luck" and "don't butt in line".

How could they be forced? That's a question for Griz, since by his post he seems to think that your pilot group will demand that non-union pilots not be allowed to fly your airplanes, and that the Gulfstreams are included in the category of being "yours". Isn't a potential union-generated lawsuit forcing NJA, and by extention NJI pilots, into a single entity all about?

 

[SkyGirl]

EJM

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Executive Jet Management, they're non-union too, aren't they?

 

[CE750Driver]

I don't think you want to do that, either on an annual (and I've only been here a couple years) or a per day basis. I know about how much you make as a 7-year X captain at NJA and the time off. Duty-wise I get as many scheduled days off as I work. But wer're comparing green apples to red apples, since I don't work for a fractional.

Uhh, lets see, this year you may be right, I had a baby and wanted to stay home.... last year 68 extended days. Think $526 a day not including per diem or overtime, plus my base pay. This year in the non BBJ guys, one was over 200 grand, and alot (I think about 20 or so) were over 120. All our BBJ guys were around 200. MMMMM. Teamsters do suck, and you must have a dream corporate gig Yak. But like you said, green apples to red apples. When will we IBT guys learn.

 

[CatYaaak]

...and you must have a dream corporate gig Yak. But like you said, green apples to red apples.

Yes, the money's great, but the schedule is awesome, so that's about the size of it.

 

[zman300]

Getting back to the original question that started all this: How would I [the pilots] like a merger? Well, let me see. I get to join a union, pay union dues, and in exchange, I lose my Gulfstream seat, take a pay cut, work with folks who are so concerned about their union work rules that they care nothing about owner staisfaction (e.g. walking off a jet full of owners because your duty day was going to extend 15 MINUTES, and leaving them there as we walked up to ask them where their crew had gone..."They went to the hotel!"), and generally dislike management.

Ah....I'll pass, thank you very much. Nothing personal, but I'll just pass. I don't get it. Why would I want a union when I work for a company that pays me well, and treats me well? Am I missing something here? NJI has done things for me and my family in my short time with them that I know NO other company would have done. NJI management prides itself for that type of care; with good reason.

So that's my $.02 in answer to the original post. I don't care to argue because, for what it's worth, this rumor has been around for too long to mean much any more. If it's true, EVERYONE at NJI will be completely blind-sided, because as someone pointed out above, management has assured us it ain't gonna happen, so they must be pretty clueless I guess. Maybe the union knows something no one else does. Hell, they should for all the money they scam from pilots for cheesy contracts.

Ok I love you bye bye!

 

[Diesel]

zman- I'm going to try and answer your questions honestly. here goes.

work with folks who are so concerned about their union work rules that they care nothing about owner staisfaction (e.g. walking off a jet full of owners because your duty day was going to extend 15 MINUTES, and leaving them there as we walked up to ask them where their crew had gone..."They went to the hotel!"), and generally dislike management.

14 hrs is a long day. I'm not sure of your work rules but 14hrs is max for us. Some people can fly 16hrs without feeling tired and some people can fly less and feel just as equally as fatigued. At what point does flying over 15 minutes past 14hrs become 20 minutes then 30. If pilot A will fly 15 minutes past and pilot B refuses to why should there be two sets of rules. Why should someone say hey pilot A will do it why won't you fly fatigued? Our contract creats equal and defined rules for all pilots.

Another point is that we don't get paid for flying past 14hrs. I've done it because I got stuck in a hold and overflew my 14hrs. The company wouldn't pay one dime.

Do i take pride in my work? Of course I do. Do I enjoy pissing off the owners? Not one bit. The thing is the company is usually notified all day that we would be unable to do the trip past 14hrs. Yet they keep trying and we have to explain to the owners that the company knew about the problem since the first thing in the morning and they haven't done a thing to fix the problem.

Local 284 has improved your life and you haven't even had to pay dues. You know that new hotel in TEB? That was our travel comittee who set that up. Notice all the hotels are now under the same standard of things to eat, things to do, stuff like that? That's been our union setting that stuff up. You get to have the benefit of local 284's hard work.

Your 7n7? We had that first. It was set up by my union.

Do i dislike managment? Nope... I just don't trust them.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Don't worry I'll still say hi on the crew bus but you guys probably won't.

 

[CatYaaak]

14 hrs is a long day. I'm not sure of your work rules but 14hrs is max for us. Some people can fly 16hrs without feeling tired and some people can fly less and feel just as equally as fatigued. At what point does flying over 15 minutes past 14hrs become 20 minutes then 30. If pilot A will fly 15 minutes past and pilot B refuses to why should there be two sets of rules. Why should someone say hey pilot A will do it why won't you fly fatigued? Our contract creats equal and defined rules for all pilots.

Here's a serious question regarding your rules...not smart-assy or anything.

Aren't you allowed to extend your duty day over 14 up to 16 with compensatory rest?

 

[FracCapt]

The way it was explained to me by one of your pilots, you may extend beyond 14 hours, but if you do so you will not get any extra pay as you do between 12 and 14 hours. Makes sense - the Union does not want to encourage duty time beyond 14 hours.

 

[GVFlyer]

Here are some interesting facts:

Published Company inventory of G-IV and G-V aircraft.

Nov 2002 45 G-IVs / 9 G-Vs
Nov 2003 35 G-IVs/ 8 G-Vs

Shrinking fleet?

11 fewer Gulfstreams in 12 months or a 20% reduction in the Gulfstream fleet.

What do you make of that?

I'd say that going to 3 Boeings from 8 ordered and 6 delivered is either a 62.5% or 50% reduction in fleet depending in how you want to do the math.

This is really no surprize- 2003 was not a record setting year for large aircraft sales. This industry, just like airlines, tends to lag the economy during recoveries. Gulfstream will deliver 75 airplanes in 2004, up 11 from 2003.

It's not like Gulfstream is going to be crying into our collective pillows over NetJets breaking up with Boeing. Contracting with them to begin with was a violation of Gulfstream's original contract with NetJets which set forth that NetJets would not enter into any purchase agreements with any other large cabin competitors of Gulfstream's. But what are you going to do? Not sell aircraft to your largest customer?

Semper Fi, Marine.

GV

 

[Schrode]

Sometimes I wonder why people get so uptight about this. Seems to me, if there is a "merger" it will be a decision of the Company. Assuming a merger takes place, all the pilots will then vote as to how the senority list will read. Simple enough.

How many pilots with NJI? How many with NJA? My guess THAT will be the final decision maker. Fortunately/Unfortunately there IS strength in NUMBERS.

 

[Diesel]

the only way you could go past 14hrs is if you were doing operations not including flight. Like airlining home. They would have to pay you too. It is also only up to the pilot if he wants to extend. Nobody does it though because you can get the extra "after midnight" pay because they were unable to get you home in 14hrs.

I've had to go past 14 but I really needed to get home so it was no big deal. I missed the 2 exteneded days (after midnight) but it was a tradeoff.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow...lots of issues.....

It has been said the best merger is when both sides are completely unhappy.

Look at the long term and high road... Don't get wrapped up in the small issues....

All easier said than done....

I've discussed on a couple of occaisons that Gulstream in SAV doesn't want organized labor flying their airplanes... One reason is rest/work rules requirements controlling design of the aircraft and operational specifications.... Yes, no is that just plain craaaazy!!?

Anyone?

 

[transpac]

There's nothing in the Netjets contract that prohibits working beyond 14 hours. The prohibition is against FLYING beyond the 14th duty hour and being INVOLUNTARILY assigned any other duty beyond 14 hours. The company routinely pays overtime beyond 14 hours for post flight duties. I can't imagine anyone walking off and leaving passengers to fend for themselves, regardless of the overtime issues involved.

 

[Live4flyng]

Aren't you allowed to extend your duty day over 14 up to 16 with compensatory rest?

No, there is no compensatory rest, only a reward of show at legal (10 hours later).

Getting back to the original question that started all this: How would I [the pilots] like a merger? Well, let me see. I get to join a union, pay union dues, and in exchange, I lose my Gulfstream seat, take a pay cut, work with folks who are so concerned about their union work rules that they care nothing about owner staisfaction (e.g. walking off a jet full of owners because your duty day was going to extend 15 MINUTES, and leaving them there as we walked up to ask them where their crew had gone..."They went to the hotel!"), and generally dislike management.

Someone has fooled you about the union at NJA. Owner satisfaction is at the top of everyone's list. Given the volume of PART 135 trips on a daily basis, it is ILLEGAL to accept a trip beyond 14 hours of duty under PART 135. The crew has to go to the hotel at that point. No argument to be had, NJA would be better off without a merger of NJI.

I've discussed on a couple of occaisons that Gulstream in SAV doesn't want organized labor flying their airplanes... One reason is rest/work rules requirements controlling design of the aircraft and operational specifications.... Yes, no is that just plain craaaazy!!?

Gulfstream doesn't have a say on who gets to fly the GWIZ after the sale. Unless they just don't care about selling airplanes.

 

[Live4flyng]

CE750driver

Uhh, lets see, this year you may be right, I had a baby and wanted to stay home.... last year 68 extended days. Think $526 a day not including per diem or overtime, plus my base pay. This year in the non BBJ guys, one was over 200 grand, and alot (I think about 20 or so) were over 120. All our BBJ guys were around 200. MMMMM. Teamsters do suck, and you must have a dream corporate gig Yak. But like you said, green apples to red apples. When will we IBT guys learn.

Don't short yourself, one extended day is $555.59.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Executive Jet Management, they're non-union too, aren't they?

EJM is a wholly owned subsidiary of Netjets, just like NJI. The difference is, EJM handles the sell-offs for Netjets. They screen 135 operators around the country and use them to do sell-off trips on many of the peak demand days for Netjets. EJM also manages airplanes for individual owners much like a charter company and lists them on EJM's 135 certificate. Their call sign is "Jet Speed". EJM does maintenance for Netjets all over the country. They have mechanics that travel around with their tool boxes on a 7/7 schedule to fix broken airplanes in the middle of nowhere.

 

[CatYaaak]

There's nothing in the Netjets contract that prohibits working beyond 14 hours. The prohibition is against FLYING beyond the 14th duty hour and being INVOLUNTARILY assigned any other duty beyond 14 hours. The company routinely pays overtime beyond 14 hours for post flight duties. I can't imagine anyone walking off and leaving passengers to fend for themselves, regardless of the overtime issues involved.

You answered my next question. I can see that if scheduling screwed up and tried to cut it too tight and they dutied out and therefore had to hand them off to some other crew, fine, but from the original story it sounded like the crew just up and left the the pax sitting there. If they were going to go fly when they found out they were going to exceed 14, they must have had duty time left where they could have babysat, and if they were at the end of the day, from what you're saying they could have gone into overtime to do it and get paid. Either way they sound like wankers for pulling a disappearing act.

 

[transpac]

Precisely, Mr. Yaaack!
Actually the crew would've already been on overtime. It starts after 12 hours, except on day-one of a tour when it starts after 9 hours.

 

[Diesel]

Here's an example from a duty day

Show at 7 for an airline. (1st day 4/4 of OT prior to 8am)

Airlined and flew for 12hrs total of duty (12/4's of OT for duty after 9hrs on first day)

On late for ops, mx issues and a bunch of other things total duty by the time we got to hotel 15hrs. (another 12/4's of OT)

All this for a grand total of over 300 bucks of OT on our first day. We only flew for 12hrs but we were on late for op's past 14 which we get paid for (not flying a plane).

I've brokendown before and waited with the pax till the new crew shows up. Went past 14 waiting around. Keeps the owners from feeling left alone, having a direct line of comunication to the company. I can't offer much but I can make sure to keep the fire's lit under the people upstairs. New crew came, helped them load the bags and make the transition for the owners much smoother.

I would never leave an owner in limbo. It's not right and it's not the way to keep them happy. Remember this is a customer oriented buisness.