Wierd solo endorsement question

[hotwings402]

I have a student that is signed off in the C-150 for solo. I need for him to go to airport tomarrow for a mock checkride, he's never been there before and does'nt have an endrosement. I don't have a C-150 available today but I have a C-170, if I take him in there in the 170 is that legal for the endrosement? OR do I have to provide the training to and from in the same make and model?

Thanks

 

[sopdan]

Has the student received the Initial solo cross-country flight endorsement[61.93(c)(1)]? If so, then why can't you just give an endorsement for a one-time solo cross-country flight [61.93(c)(2)]? Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

1. Why would you want to endorse your student to fly a tailwheel solo based on one flight if all he's ever flown is a 150?

2. Why do you need to do a solo endorsement for a mock checkride?

3. Why would you want a student to take a mock checkride in an airplane he has no experience in?

I must be missing something also.

 

[viper548]

I have a student that is signed off in the C-150 for solo. I need for him to go to airport tomarrow for a mock checkride, he's never been there before and does'nt have an endrosement. I don't have a C-150 available today but I have a C-170, if I take him in there in the 170 is that legal for the endrosement? OR do I have to provide the training to and from in the same make and model?

Thanks

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a C-150 a tricycle gear and a C-170 a taildragger? The student would need a taildragger endorsement as well as an endorsement for the airplane.

 

[sopdan]

I think what he wants to do is give instruction over the route in the 170 (b/c the 150 is unavailable) and sign the student off for a solo x-c to that airport for the mock ck. ride in the 150. I'm saying that he shouldn't have to give instruction at all, just sign the student off for the x-c (assuming the student has all of the other necessary endorsements).

 

[hotwings402]

Loophole

Its a 20 mile flight=not a cross country.
Can't sign off a student for a repeated OR one time cross country without if its not a cross country.
Its under 25 sm and its a repeated flight to another airport.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm saying that he shouldn't have to give instruction at all, just sign the student off for the x-c (assuming the student has all of the other necessary endorsements).

But the student =doesn't= have the other necessary endorsements. The question started with a student who's endorsed for a C-150. Basic solo privileges are make/model-specific. In order for the student to take the 170 around the pattern at the home airport, he's have to give him training and a new solo endorsement.

 

[sopdan]

But the student =doesn't= have the other necessary endorsements. The question started with a student who's endorsed for a C-150. Basic solo privileges are make/model-specific. In order for the student to take the 170 around the pattern at the home airport, he's have to give him training and a new solo endorsement.

As I understood the original post, the student was never going to fly the 170 solo, just receive training over the route in the 170.

 

[mattaxelrod]

Maybe he meant C-172, and not C-170? That would make a little more sense in this context.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As I understood the original post, the student was never going to fly the 170 solo, just receive training over the route in the 170.

Oh. I though you

think what he wants to do is give instruction over the route in the 170 (b/c the 150 is unavailable) and sign the student off for a solo x-c to that airport

Oh, I see. Train the route in a 170 and then sign off the flight in a 150. In that case I think you are right. I don't see anything in 61.93(b)(1) that indicates that the <25 NM "local xc" endorsement or training needs to be airplane specific, just airport specific.

Assuming of course that either of us understood the question.

 

[avbug]

§ 61.93 Solo cross-country flight requirements.
(a) General.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a student pilot must meet the requirements of this section before -
(i) Conducting a solo cross-country flight, or any flight greater than 25 nautical miles from the airport from where the flight originated.
(ii) Making a solo flight and landing at any location other than the airport of origination.

The "loophole" doesn't apply; the regulation doesn't just apply to cross country flights in excess of 25 nm, but in accordance with 14 CFR 61.91(a)(1)(ii), to making a solo flight with a landing at any point other than the point of departure.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a student pilot who seeks solo cross-country flight privileges must:
(i) Have received flight training from an instructor authorized to provide flight training on the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft for which solo cross-country privileges are sought;

I don't recall if you stated weather the student has a solo endorsement for cross country yet in the Cessna 150 (I believe you stated he has the solo endorsement, but didn't state weather he has a cross country solo endorsement in the same). If he doesn't have a cross country solo endorsement in the airplane, then you must give him that training and endorsement.

(ii) Have demonstrated cross-country proficiency on the appropriate maneuvers and procedures of this section to an authorized instructor;
(iii) Have satisfactorily accomplished the pre-solo flight maneuvers and procedures required by § 61.87 of this part in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft for which solo cross-country privileges are sought; and
(iv) Comply with any limitations included in the authorized instructor's endorsement that are required by paragraph (c) of this section.
(3) A student pilot who seeks solo cross-country flight privileges must have received ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country maneuvers and procedures listed in this section that are appropriate to the aircraft to be flown.

Again, in order to endorse for the cross country in make and model, you must have provided instruction in make and model, both ground and flight, for the cross country maneuvers and proceedures appropriate to that aircraft.

(b) Authorization to perform certain solo flights and cross-country flights. A student pilot must obtain an endorsement from an authorized instructor to make solo flights from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training to another location. A student pilot who receives this endorsement must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.
(1) Solo flights may be made to another airport that is within 25 nautical miles from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training, provided -
(i) An authorized instructor has given the student pilot flight training at the other airport, and that training includes flight in both directions over the route, entering and exiting the traffic pattern, and takeoffs and landings at the other airport;
(ii) The authorized instructor who gave the training endorses the student pilot's logbook authorizing the flight;
(iii) The student pilot has current solo flight endorsements in accordance with § 61.87 of this part;
(iv) The authorized instructor has determined that the student pilot is proficient to make the flight; and
(v) The purpose of the flight is to practice takeoffs and landings at that other airport.

This applies more exactly to your question. You may provide the instruction at the field to be used within 25 nm, and that instruction is not aircraft specific. However, you may have little to fall back on if the student has a problem and you show that the instruction you gave was in an entirely dissimiliar aircraft (eg, Cessna 170 for training, vs. Cessna 150 for solo). This is especially true as the entire purpose of the regulation, and clearly stated in 61.93(b)(1)(v) is to perform practice takeoffs and landings. How are you going to defend yourself when you show that you gave an authorization to perform takeoffs and landings at the other field using an aircraft the pilot isn't qualified to operate? Legal, but juicy liability not in your favor.

(2) Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided -
(i) The authorized instructor has given the student flight training in both directions over the route, including entering and exiting the traffic patterns, takeoffs, and landings at the airports to be used;
(ii) The authorized instructor who gave the training has endorsed the student's logbook certifying that the student is proficient to make such flights;
(iii) The student has current solo flight endorsements in accordance with § 61.87 of this part; and
(iv) The student has current solo cross-country flight endorsements in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section; however, for repeated solo cross-country flights to another airport within 50 nautical miles from which the flight originated, separate endorsements are not required to be made for each flight.

You may endorse a student pilot certificate for a cross country flight, but only after giving instruction in the specific make and model. Repeated trips over the same routing takes place by endorsing the student logbook, and is not aircraft specific.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

Such a nice well written reply.