Why is it that some people on this board do not think that airlines are not ruled by the same rules as every other capitalist business in the world? Supply and demand. What you think you should be making has no bearing. If you are unhappy with your pay, you should do something else or find someone who is willing to pay you that. If United was desperate enough they could probably charge $30,000 for 250 hours in the right seat in the 777. At leasr for now. So, all you loosers complaining about your salaries or the whores that will do it for less, please step aside and let somebody that wants to do the job have the job. You loosers are slowing down progress.
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KingAirKiddo
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
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justApilot
Dawn Patroller
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Jon.........
One of my (our) goals is to leave this profession in better shape than it was when I (we) entered it, or atleast preserve what I (we) have.
Also...when you interview for your dream job oneday, be sure to emphasize your colorful beliefs again. I really think you've got what it takes. Good luck in aviation...Jon.
-whore
-loser
-whore's that will do it for less
-If United was desperate enough they could probably charge $30,000 for 250 hours in the right seat in the 777.
-So, all you loosers complaining about your salaries or the whores that will do it for less, please step aside and let somebody that wants to do the job have the job.
- You loosers are slowing down progress.
FIRE AWAY BOYS!
One of my (our) goals is to leave this profession in better shape than it was when I (we) entered it, or atleast preserve what I (we) have.
Also...when you interview for your dream job oneday, be sure to emphasize your colorful beliefs again. I really think you've got what it takes. Good luck in aviation...Jon.
-whore
-loser
-whore's that will do it for less
-If United was desperate enough they could probably charge $30,000 for 250 hours in the right seat in the 777.
-So, all you loosers complaining about your salaries or the whores that will do it for less, please step aside and let somebody that wants to do the job have the job.
- You loosers are slowing down progress.
FIRE AWAY BOYS!
JON.
Seriously.
We all know where your head is currently at. Most of us have felt that excitement about "wanting the job" and justifying our "at all costs" attitude by saying things like "supply and demand."
You miss the point entirely.
We all realize that the supply and demand curves are now to airline management's advantage. We all realize that the way the airlines have been managed over the years ALSO makes it now nearly impossible to sustain the cost structures (and pay levels) we have become accustomed to. BUT, we also don't want every commercial pilot who "wants the job" to roll over and request the sandpaper condom treatment just for the privilege of getting to fly for a living (if you can call it a living).
I don't think there's really any reason why any pilot could not live on $75-150K per year. Even profitable Southwest makes this possible. But what we don't want to see happen is that the industry average pay levels continue to (not DROP, but) plummet to rates that make even non-skilled labor turn and chuckle at just how stupid we must be.
When it comes time to send your children to college and you haven't been able to save for it, then you can blame supply and demand and not ask yourself why it was that you worked for 5 different airlines over the years, never breaking the $100K mark, with your own student loans still unpaid.
Until then, it could never hurt to maintain a focus on helping to improve the conditions within the industry rather than setting your sights ever lower. Remember, this industry will grow over the next 35 years and there will be plenty of flying jobs. And there will be plently who want them.
The real question is, will we be able to afford to have them?
Seriously.
We all know where your head is currently at. Most of us have felt that excitement about "wanting the job" and justifying our "at all costs" attitude by saying things like "supply and demand."
You miss the point entirely.
We all realize that the supply and demand curves are now to airline management's advantage. We all realize that the way the airlines have been managed over the years ALSO makes it now nearly impossible to sustain the cost structures (and pay levels) we have become accustomed to. BUT, we also don't want every commercial pilot who "wants the job" to roll over and request the sandpaper condom treatment just for the privilege of getting to fly for a living (if you can call it a living).
I don't think there's really any reason why any pilot could not live on $75-150K per year. Even profitable Southwest makes this possible. But what we don't want to see happen is that the industry average pay levels continue to (not DROP, but) plummet to rates that make even non-skilled labor turn and chuckle at just how stupid we must be.
When it comes time to send your children to college and you haven't been able to save for it, then you can blame supply and demand and not ask yourself why it was that you worked for 5 different airlines over the years, never breaking the $100K mark, with your own student loans still unpaid.
Until then, it could never hurt to maintain a focus on helping to improve the conditions within the industry rather than setting your sights ever lower. Remember, this industry will grow over the next 35 years and there will be plenty of flying jobs. And there will be plently who want them.
The real question is, will we be able to afford to have them?
I find it fascinating, too.
I would have definitely worded it differently. I would have definitely said it in a more polite manner.
But I definitely agree with Jon's point regarding capitalism.
Granted, I'm an outsider looking in. I'm too old to really consider an airline type job, especially given the state of the market.
But, in a capitalist system, it really doesn't matter what someone thinks they are worth. Collective bargaining and unions and loans and debt and chapter 11/13 can certainly smooth out the bumps, but when it comes down to it, the customer is the one deciding how much money a particular service is worth.
Take my current industry, for example. 4 years ago, all I had to do was put the word "computer" or "internet" on a resume, and wham! Instaneous $150K job. Debt and loans and stupid investors kept things "smooth" for a while, but eventually the customers just wouldn't pay the price the companies were asking (assuming the company was even asking anything!)
Many computer industry people can still make a decent living, because there are enough customers willing to pay for certain services and goods, but it isn't anything like it used to be, and there are a lot of people worried about their next mortgage payment. Heck, if my Amazon stock had kept going up at the same rate, I'd be offering you all jobs flying for my own airline!
This is a good thing. It forced (is forcing) the industry to be more productive, more innovative, and really focus on what the customer wants.
I think the same can be said about the airline industry. I'm sorry if the truth hurts. Like it has been hard on computer employees the past few yeast, it is also unfortunate for pilots who planned on being worth more.
But, in the end, in spite of any "management mistakes" or "stupid airline tricks", it is the paying customer who decides what a pilot is worth.
That's reality. Capitalism will eventually move compensation for a product or service (and management) towards a sustainable level. Along the way, there will be booms and busts. When compensation levels get too far away (up or down) from a sustainable level, supply/demand will eventually correct the situation.
...Dave
I would have definitely worded it differently. I would have definitely said it in a more polite manner.
But I definitely agree with Jon's point regarding capitalism.
Granted, I'm an outsider looking in. I'm too old to really consider an airline type job, especially given the state of the market.
But, in a capitalist system, it really doesn't matter what someone thinks they are worth. Collective bargaining and unions and loans and debt and chapter 11/13 can certainly smooth out the bumps, but when it comes down to it, the customer is the one deciding how much money a particular service is worth.
Take my current industry, for example. 4 years ago, all I had to do was put the word "computer" or "internet" on a resume, and wham! Instaneous $150K job. Debt and loans and stupid investors kept things "smooth" for a while, but eventually the customers just wouldn't pay the price the companies were asking (assuming the company was even asking anything!)
Many computer industry people can still make a decent living, because there are enough customers willing to pay for certain services and goods, but it isn't anything like it used to be, and there are a lot of people worried about their next mortgage payment. Heck, if my Amazon stock had kept going up at the same rate, I'd be offering you all jobs flying for my own airline!
This is a good thing. It forced (is forcing) the industry to be more productive, more innovative, and really focus on what the customer wants.
I think the same can be said about the airline industry. I'm sorry if the truth hurts. Like it has been hard on computer employees the past few yeast, it is also unfortunate for pilots who planned on being worth more.
But, in the end, in spite of any "management mistakes" or "stupid airline tricks", it is the paying customer who decides what a pilot is worth.
That's reality. Capitalism will eventually move compensation for a product or service (and management) towards a sustainable level. Along the way, there will be booms and busts. When compensation levels get too far away (up or down) from a sustainable level, supply/demand will eventually correct the situation.
...Dave
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Salty Dog
2 bells, no stinger
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 152
Jon,
As DJS eloquently described, labor is part of the market too. All things in business are negotiable. Do you think ALCOA is just giving their stuff away to manufacturers, or do they negotiate the highest possible price for their own benefit? Should labor be giving their input away to the company?
On average and over time, airline pilot pay follows airline profits almost exactly. Temporary disruptions do occur, leading to radical "sky is falling" assessments from the fringe who foretell the end of a multi-billion dollar industry with ironic regularity. Still hasn't happened.
Don't join them. They're wrong. (again)
As DJS eloquently described, labor is part of the market too. All things in business are negotiable. Do you think ALCOA is just giving their stuff away to manufacturers, or do they negotiate the highest possible price for their own benefit? Should labor be giving their input away to the company?
On average and over time, airline pilot pay follows airline profits almost exactly. Temporary disruptions do occur, leading to radical "sky is falling" assessments from the fringe who foretell the end of a multi-billion dollar industry with ironic regularity. Still hasn't happened.
Don't join them. They're wrong. (again)
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
The 'race to the bottom' is a myth.
Pay may drop. It will not plummet. Without the brass ring of a job with the majors to look forward to (anytime in the near future, anyway), there will be less pilots and the pay will stabilize. If there were multiple thousands of pilots who were QUALIFIED and out of work, pay rates would drop and nothing could be done to prevent it. Human nature is an unstoppable force.
Pay may drop. It will not plummet. Without the brass ring of a job with the majors to look forward to (anytime in the near future, anyway), there will be less pilots and the pay will stabilize. If there were multiple thousands of pilots who were QUALIFIED and out of work, pay rates would drop and nothing could be done to prevent it. Human nature is an unstoppable force.
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