Why shouldn't I go for a flying career?

[jes77jes]

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I would just like some honest help. O.K. So many of you guys that are already flying for careers, seem like you wouldn't recommend aviation. From what I've read, some of you wished you hadn't gotten into it. If you had it to do all over again would you be where you are today? Or would you prefer some other career. Also a big question, how many of you that seem to shun us away from the industry can remember the job or jobs you were doing before flying? Would you shun us away from those jobs too? Does flying get old, is it the being away from home that gets old, what is it that turns people sour on the industry? I don't want to dis the people who have been there done that, I just think a lot of us would like a little more insight besides "don't get in this industry." By the way, I don't care about the so called glamour and money, I just can't honestly think of anything else I'd want to do for a career.

Thanks for any help, it is more valuable than you can imagine.
Jesse

 

[NuGuy]

Hi Jessie,

You ask a great question that begs asking.

Largely, an aviation carreer boils down to one thing...luck. Being in the right place at the right time. Not only in general, such as training at the right time and catching the right side of the hiring curve, but specifically, such as walking in the door of a place where it just so happens to be looking for someone, because someone else quit 5 minutes before.

While this is true somewhat in other fields, because of the seniority system and other factors, good timing can make or break an aviation career and cause a large fluctuation of earning potential.

I would recommend a read of Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". This book, though written decades ago, is still an extremely accurate representation of aviation life. If you think you can stand the ups and downs as portrayed by Gann, then you will do ok. If not, you might want to secure more stable employmemt.

JMHO,
Nu

 

[rk772]

Yes, it does turn some people bitter. I have felt myself become a little bitter. Not because of the company I work for, but because I don't have a job. But when asked if I would do it all over again, I would say YES. I would just make some different decisions. Hindsight is 20/20 right.
When paired with the right company, this can be the best career out there. Many people bad-mouth my former employer, but I consider it as the best job I ever had.
Another deciding factor in making the decision to begin an aviation job is your age. Because of the time required to make it from zero hours to an airline job, younger is better.
I started flying at age 16 and I'm now 30. I am starting to feel that I may have to start over flight instructing just to find a job in the air. During a job interview a while back, I was talking to a furloughed US Air captain with 3 type ratings and 13,000 hours. He said this. What if your son was half way through the 12th grade and his school burned down. You called the school board to find out where he was going to finish his last year of high school and the school board said, I'm sorry, he is going to have to start over in Kindergarden. This sounds pretty silly right? He was an airline captain with thousands of hours and is now instructing in a C-172. It's kind of like starting over.

But like I said, I would do it all over again just for the chance of that dream job. When I say dream job, I'm not talking about Delta, American, or United. I'm refering to a nice job flying a regional jet. I'm only 30. I have plenty of time to get there (AGAIN) and I've learned a few lessons along the way. The best thing you can do is keep a good attitude and never give up. Try to stay away from the constant complainers or you will begin to show that attitude also. On that previous interview, I was asked what would you do if you were with a Catpain for 30 days and all he did was complain about the company. Don't find yourself being that Captain one day.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Hey, Jesse-

I've been flying for 16 years now, 12 of them professionally. I have done the whole CFI, box hauling, and regional flying thing. In the early years, I worked several undesirable jobs just to make ends meet. I was working during the early '90s recession, and during the late '90s boom. It's been a brutal road to get where I am today, and I still have a ways to go before I feel I have really "made it".

As you know, the economy, and particularly the airlines, are really in the toilet right now. I don't know when it will come around again, or what the airlines will look like when things finally do come around. I doubt it will look like the late '90s any time soon, if ever.

What I have seen, though, is that even though the industry typically goes in cycles, a pilot's thinking about the future is typically linear. A pilot will look at the state of the industry, his airline, his current job, and project this state out to the infinite future, i.e. "Right now I am on reserve as a junior FO in the most junior base, therefore I will retire on reserve as a junior FO in the most junior base. This is my lot in life, and it will never change". I am only exaggerating slightly. This is how many pilots' thought process works.

Thus, since the industry is in the toilet right now, using the aforementioned logic, it will be in the toilet for the infinite future. Hence the advice to you that it will never, ever be a viable career. Personally, I make it a policy not to try to predict more than about two years down the road. Predictions made beyond that timeline tend to become wildly inaccurate.

As far as what turns people off about this field, it's the airline management. They know that they have a "captive audience", as seniority makes it difficult to pack up and go somewhere else. Therefore, they tend to abuse their workforce. They will use threats of job cuts in order to get concessions. They will outsource flying to the lowest bidding subcontractor. They will violate the contract repeatedly, then continue to do so while the grievances pile up in the arbitration process.

I still enjoy the flying, although the "job" isn't what I thought it would be. It's a much harsher work environment then I would have imagined until I experienced it firsthand. I still couldn't imagine doing anything else.

That having been said, I'm not sure what you are doing right now, but if you are making a decent living, "don't quit your day job." At least not yet. Get all your ratings, up through CFII/MEI and make sure all of your debts are paid off. Instruct part time if you can, and just keep an eye on the industry. I have no idea when things will come around again, but at least if you have all your ducks in a row you will be ready to jump in when it does.

Hope that helps some.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[Draginass]

The problem is now that you don't know what the vocation (it's not a "profession" anymore) will be in the future. Based on how it's changing now, you can look forward to a career of struggles, high competition, low-pay, long hours, chaotic schedules, boom and bust hiring/furlough cycles, and extreme pressures on your family life.

The ultimate goal of that lucrative major airline job is no longer there. Between the economy, governmental non-concern for the stability of the US air transportation system, and airline managements, they've completely broken any union power for at least 10 years, and probably a lot longer. Compare "real" wages at a major airline over the last 20 years. It's pathetic. I wish I could say it'll get better, but I think the industry has fundamentally changed. Pilots are no longer considered professionals, just "cost units," at least at my major airline.

Don't expect your "union" to be helpful either. They're run by the senior guys for the senior guys and they'll sell out anyone junior in a hearbeat.

In short, commerical flying is a great hobby, but a lousy job.

If you want challenging and interesting flying, do it in the military.

 

[LR25]

Jesse, you are far from having to worry about Unions and seniority lists a what not.

If you want to fly, you need to get that magical 500 hour mark, do by getting your CFI, tow banners, traffic watch whatever it takes.

THIS is what you will look back on and say, "man, that was alot of fun".

Making it in the business doesnt mean you have to have a double digit seniority number, it doesnt hurt, but by no means is it required.

If I were you, I would be subjective as to what you read on this board. There is no reason what so ever for you to concentrate on what a bunch of airline pilots have to complain about, by all means there is alot out there to complain about, but it doesnt even pertain to someone who is thinking about starting out in flying. this is the sole reason you are asking these questions in the first place.

Flying is a wonderful profession, I can think of nothing else I would want to do. But you either do it or you dont. When the time comes, is when you pay attention to what people feel about there jobs and all the misery that we have currently, but not now, fly just to go fly. Get your ratings get that first job and have a ball.

And remember, there are other fine professions that involve flying other than having a number on a seniority list. Dont get hung up on it.

Also, flying doesnt get old, it all depends on your personal attitude and outlook.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Hi, LR25-

I do agree with you. I hope you didn't think I was being too negative with my reply. As I mentioned, I still love the flying, and couldn't imagine doing anything else, but since Jesse asked where all the negativity comes from, I felt I had to explain the mindset of some pilots (myself NOT included) when they give people advice to avoid this field.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[WrightAvia]

I was talking to a furloughed US Air captain with 3 type ratings and 13,000 hours. He said this. What if your son was half way through the 12th grade and his school burned down. You called the school board to find out where he was going to finish his last year of high school and the school board said, I'm sorry, he is going to have to start over in Kindergarden. This sounds pretty silly right? He was an airline captain with thousands of hours and is now instructing in a C-172. It's kind of like starting over.

rk772, thank UNIONS for that scenario.

 

[Timebuilder]

Why shouldn't I go for a flying career?

Aside from the other comments, consider what you would like in a career.

Stable employment?

Decent pay?

Respect and a feeling of real value at your job?

This might have been the case a couple of decades ago, but not now. Now, you are one of thousands of pilots who are not working. Maybe half of them will never fly again for an airline. What supported the lifestyle, and acted as a moderating force on the market, ie: unions, are weaker than ever, and will remain so for a very long time. Longer, certainly, than two years.

Flying is fun, no two ways about it. It's the best office view in the world.

As a job, though, it is a cruel and indifferent master.

I hear Kit Darby says there is a shortage of IT professionals...

 

[LAXSaabdude]

rk772, thank UNIONS for that scenario.

And just what is THAT supposed to mean? I have worked at 3 non-union jobs before I was hired by a union carrier. Promotions at the non-unions were strictrly decided by who kissed up to the boss the most. Explain to me how this is a better system than the seniority system?

LAXSaabdude

 

[Timebuilder]

Promotions at the non-unions were strictrly decided by who kissed up to the boss the most.

...and that's only one factor!

 

[WrightAvia]

I was talking to a furloughed US Air captain with 3 type ratings and 13,000 hours. He said this. What if your son was half way through the 12th grade and his school burned down. You called the school board to find out where he was going to finish his last year of high school and the school board said, I'm sorry, he is going to have to start over in Kindergarden. This sounds pretty silly right? He was an airline captain with thousands of hours and is now instructing in a C-172. It's kind of like starting over.

LAXSaabdude, rk772 posted a sad but interesting story of how you can work all your life to be a jet captain at one airline and get shoved out the door...but then that captain can't go over to another airline and get a job as a jet captain cause the union won't let him in without starting from the bottom. Why don't you go beat up on on rk772, he's the one that said starting all over from scratch is a bummer for this captain...I just pointed out that the unions won't let him in as a captain at another airline.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

LAXSaabdude, rk772 posted a sad but interesting story of how you can work all your life to be a jet captain at one airline and get shoved out the door...but then that captain can't go over to another airline and get a job as a jet captain cause the union won't let him in without starting from the bottom. Why don't you go beat up on on rk772, he's the one that said starting all over from scratch is a bummer for this captain...I just pointed out that the unions won't let him in as a captain at another airline.

I agree, that sucks. Seniority may not be the perfect system, but it is the law of the land, and I will take it over favoritism any day.

I guess the only way to remedy this flaw may be to make seniority an even stronger determination of one's career path, i.e., a national seniority list. Time served at one union carrier carries over to another union carrier.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[Timebuilder]

Now you are talking about the only solution that I can imagine: a national pilot's union.

The question is: who has the cojones and expertise to get it rolling?

 

[WrightAvia]

You kind of hit the nail on the head LAXSaabdude, but I doubt that will ever happen. It's just a part of life in this industry.

At the level I am at in my career, I can get a captain's slot in a lateral move to another freight company or go over to a regional that will hire someone off the street to be a captain (for at least the Beech 1900 or the Saab 340) and that CAN happen in theory. But when you're talking bigger paychecks and other things at stake...you gotta get in line. That's the way it is and will probably always be. It's a crap shoot.

I heard of a guy where I work at that left, went off to work at a national airline. Eventually he became typed in a DC-9 like aircraft there as captain. He left to pursue a job at another national airline and was furloughed. He eventually had to go BACK to the original national airline where he was captain and take a position as an FO. He eventually was furloughed there also.

 

[WrightAvia]

But to answer the orginal poster's ?

"why shouldn't I pursue a career in aviation?"

I can only say, it's what you make of it dude. Most everybody here that had an answer, assumed you wanted to be an airline pilot. I know guys that start right seat in king airs (with qualifying experience) that start at better than 60,000 dollars a year. It's a fact. Alliant Energy pilots start out in that ballpark or HIGHER. Getting there is hard part.

On the same token I know a guy that is a captain in the Hawkers at a corporation and is the crew scheduler for the Hawkers there. He told me he a guy stoped by with a resume showing a Hawker Type and 12,000 hours. He was out on the street and looking for work. What do you do then? Might as well be the US Air captain mentioned in the earlier post.

I guess to sum it up, If you are asking yourself this question, then maybe you already have your own answer.

 

[LR25]

LAX, I wasnt bashing anybody, but I will say this.

Jesse shouldnt even be concerned with any of the subjects that you all have turned this thread into.

Dont you see, he is asking these questions becuase of this type of dialog. What you all should be saying to him is that the aviation industry as a whole is not like this. Unions and all of this airline BS is not what he is interested in, all he is asking is it worth it.

Jesse, IT IS WORTH IT. Like I said before, dont listen to an airline pilot that has been doing it for all his life, or for a few years for that matter, I would have to guess that 60% or so are Jadded by the industry, I got the T-shirt to prove it. I;m not saying the airlines is not a good place to work, I had a good time, but the ride was over, and its going to be over for a while to come.

There always something new in the flying business, some good, some bad, but in the end it will pay off, you have to stick with it.

 

[KickSave]

The ultimate goal of that lucrative major airline job is no longer there. Between the economy, governmental non-concern for the stability of the US air transportation system, and airline managements, they've completely broken any union power for at least 10 years, and probably a lot longer.

The economy is cyclical, it always has and will be. We just came out of the best 8 year economy in history, followed by a 3 year pullback. It's controlled by future events, none of which can be predicted with perfect accuracy.

Governmental non-concern? Didn't they just put some $15B in aid into the airline industry after 9/11, or did that never happen? I recall United didn't get the loan guarantees they were seeking, but other companies have recieved some help, no? What about the proposed cap on airline CEO's pay in exchange for goverment aid? Doesn't sound like non concern to me.

As for managements, they just suck, and they suck for so many other industries as well. Enrons, Worldcoms, etc etc. At my former employer, the founders son took over and promptly ran a Fortune 500 company into the ground, destroying the retirements of 2000 employees, without even ever doing anything illegal... Eventually, it will be up to the employees to force the kind of changes they need to ensure their security, management won't be doing it for them.

Just my $.02

 

[bobbysamd]

Bastardus non carborundum - easier said than done

From what I've read, some of you wished you hadn't gotten into it. If you had it to do all over again would you be where you are today?

I've written quite a bit on the board about my experiences as a career changer to aviation. The long and short of my experience is I probably was too old when I changed careers in 1988 and made the decision a year too late. I was 37 when I was hired into my first real flying job. By the time I had built enough marketable hours the 1990 recession and Iraq war stopped hiring. Those that were hired were generally much younger than me and had less experience. If I had it to over again, I would have started at least ten years earlier.

[H]ow many of you that seem to shun us away from the industry can remember the job or jobs you were doing before flying? Would you shun us away from those jobs too?

I was in on-air broadcasting for nineteen years before I changed careers to aviation. Broadcasting requires a certain amount of talent. That notwithstanding, unless you make to to the very top the pay is not so great, the politics are insufferable, there is little job security, you may have to work holidays, weekends and nights, and if you work in news you will work long hours. Gosh, that sounds a lot like flying, doesn't it? All kidding aside, I was amazed by the similarities to broadcasting after I changed careers to aviation.

[W]hat is it that turns people sour on the industry?

At times, I felt very much like I was being ground against a carborundum stone. I worked in big flight schools, and there were all kinds of stupid, annoying, and petty things in all of them. In at least one situation, I felt that I was out-and-out lied to and/or treated in bad faith regarding a promotion opportunity. Things like that are what grind you.

By the way, I don't care about the so called glamour and money, I just can't honestly think of anything else I'd want to do for a career.

I felt the same way. The problem is that professional aviation is looked upon by many as a glamor profession. Accordingly, there is no shortage of qualified pilots. Companies know that, and take advantage of people - they grind them. Flying airplanes for pay is great for it's own sake, but the BS can be insufferable.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[Timebuilder]

That notwithstanding, unless you make to to the very top the pay is not so great, the politics are insufferable, there is little job security, you may have to work holidays, weekends and nights, and if you work in news you will work long hours. Gosh, that sounds a lot like flying, doesn't it? All kidding aside, I was amazed at the similarities to broadcasting after I changed careers to aviation.

I was amazed, too, and somewhat disappointed.

It would be a nice experience before I die to be treated as a valued and respected employee.

Guess I better start my own company...

 

[Timebuilder]

Someone told me that the latin phrase for "don't let the bastards grind you down" was "Illegitemi non corborumdum".

Crazy idea, latin in the sixth grade....

 

[WrightAvia]

The kid is going to have to weigh it for himself. If we have to convince him IT is worth it, he's looking at the wrong line of work.

LR 25 is saying don't listen to the guys flying the line too long or just a little bit...they are bitter. Heck, that ought to be a clue right there. Even the young dudes that are just getting established in professional aviation are making generalizations that anyone that has been flying for a while is jaded. Don't take it as a personal attack LR 25. Just an observation.

The original poster asked if it was worth it to start a career in aviation...no one can answer that for him. He'll have to belly up to the bar, plunk down his cash and risk it all for nothing, like the rest of us...Or just walk on by. It's a crap shoot.

 

[LR25]

quote
"LR 25 is saying don't listen to the guys flying the line too long or just a little bit...they are bitter. Heck, that ought to be a clue right there. Even the young dudes that are just getting established in professional aviation are making generalizations that anyone that has been flying for a while is jaded. Don't take it as a personal attack LR 25. Just an observation."



I wont take it personal, but I also said I believe about 60% would steer you in a wrong direction, not all. And I'm mainly talking about the guys out there flying the line, hell yeah it gets rediculous, crew shedulers, managment, airplanes, whatever.

I have flown for, or have worked as a mechanic for four 121 airlines. I know guys that are there becuase they have to be, its the only thing they know, they would tell someone up and coming to run as fast as they can in the other direction, this is total BS, these peoples attitude suck completely, and maybe its warranted, but dont let it be contagious.

If this was an easy business, everybody would be doing it, but lets not talk doom and gloom to someone who hasnt a clue just becuase we have 15 years in the business and we have seen the worst it can do. It wasnt a bowl of cheeries for me, but Im not about to give someone false impressions becuase I had a rough time. Face it folks, it beats working for a living. But I wont mind telling you the time I lived in an FBO hualing boxes in a Beech 18, never home but on the weekend, but it dont stay like that all the time, you progress in your career, where you end up is either up to you, or through a few bad luck senarios, I have had both.

So like I have said from the get go, we need to tell the truth, I could give a rats a$$ about RJDC, unions, J4J, offline jumpseating, or whatever you can deam up.

The question was, is it worth it.

Well is it?

No one said you have to be an airline pilot.

I fly becuase I love to fly.

Most of us on here are pilots, and we most would aggree that it is worth it.

 

[Boomhauer]

quote



I fly becuase I love to fly.

Heh…

I fly because I didn’t want to join the Army and come home in a body bag and some stupid little **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** persuaded me that by the time pilot training ended the war would be over.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

LAX, I wasnt bashing anybody, but I will say this.

Jesse shouldnt even be concerned with any of the subjects that you all have turned this thread into.

Dont you see, he is asking these questions becuase of this type of dialog. What you all should be saying to him is that the aviation industry as a whole is not like this. Unions and all of this airline BS is not what he is interested in, all he is asking is it worth it.

Jesse, IT IS WORTH IT. Like I said before, dont listen to an airline pilot that has been doing it for all his life, or for a few years for that matter, I would have to guess that 60% or so are Jadded by the industry, I got the T-shirt to prove it. I;m not saying the airlines is not a good place to work, I had a good time, but the ride was over, and its going to be over for a while to come.

There always something new in the flying business, some good, some bad, but in the end it will pay off, you have to stick with it.

Jesse wanted to know why people keep trying to steer him away from the field, and I told him why. Pilots have tunnel vision with their careers, and explained how that thought process works. I then explained to him I wouldn't ever want to do anything else. Just trying to give a balanced picture.

WrightAvia said it best when he said:

If we have to convince him IT is worth it, he's looking at the wrong line of work.

If anyone comes to me and says "I wanna be a pilot, no matter what!" I will give them all the encouragement in the world, because they have the drive to make it happen. I would never try to steer someone away from this field if they had a true desire for it.

Hope that clarifies my point.

LAXSaabdude

 

[bobbysamd]

"Illegitemi non corborumdum"

Someone told me that the latin phrase for "don't let the bastards grind you down" was "Illegitemi non corborumdum".

I've heard it both ways, but I believe that you are correct, Mr. Time.

Further to what I wrote above about a job grinding you down, when it comes right down to it all jobs will grind you. Uncooperative and uncongenial work group situations will grind you. Deadlines and their ancillary effects can really grind you. I've worked in law about nine years. Just like in radio and aviation, I have to meet deadlines and schedules in law, especially during litigation. That can be tough and stressful - especially when you are counting on outsiders and third parties for cooperation.

I also experienced deadline pressure very much in news. Same situation. Unlike print, in radio news you have a deadline every hour or every half-hour. If you can't get a source to cooperate, you might miss a critical story - and suffer tremendous wrath from your news director or editor.

Of course, meeting schedules in aviation is a given, even at the grass-roots level of training. Sometimes, you are forced to send a student for a stage check or practical against your better judgment because training mins have been met and/or because of outside pressure. Any 141 school instructor who says that he/she never experienced such pressure is not leveling with you. Or, if you are in a check airman capacity, you may be under pressure to pass some students, even if you feel in your best professional judgment that they're not meeting standards. Ask most any Part 141 self-examining authority stage check pilot about that.

It seems as if working has gotten tougher over the years. Especially if you deal with people primarily by telephone. Voicemails and the layers of touchtone menus can be a real bane to your existence. Also, there is something about telephones that impede communications. Sort of like kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend through a screen door. Studies have been done on that. Somehow, you communicate far better face-to-face. But that's not always possible or practical.

Having said all this, perhaps that's why work is called "work." Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: "Illegitemi non corborumdum"

Also, there is something about telephones that impede communications. Sort of like kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend through a screen door. Studies have been done on that. Somehow, you communicate far better face-to-face.

I believe it's because we get a lot of information not only from body language but from "lip-reading" as well. I watched a show about this a long time ago, where they had some nonsense recording like "gy gag gawt gee goo grive" and they played it back with a computer-generated face that was 'saying' something like "by bah baw bee boo brive." When they put the two together, you perceived the face to be saying "My dad taught me to drive."

 

[bobbysamd]

Phone "Communications" v. Face to Face

I believe it's because we get a lot of information not only from body language but from "lip-reading" as well . . . .

That, and also because phone lines seem to have an insulating, firewall-type, semi-permeable effect.

I remember a couple of times having to deal with a particularly anal court clerk. I wasn't able to communicate with her about certain things over the phone. So, I would drive down to court and visit with her, and we communicated.

I dunno . . . . . . .Sometimes, you telephone an entity and the phone is answered by a recorded voice that offers you several touch-tone menu options. None of which seem to fit. You select one - and you're greeted by another menu. You select one - and you're greeted by still another menu. And so on. Finally, the phone rings, and you wait in eager anticipation for the sound of a human voice. It is answered by a voice mail. Or else, the person who answers doesn't know dikk about what you want and redirects you through the entire labyrinthine, Kremlin-like network again. It is called something like voicemail hell.

It's enough to drive you insane.