Why is SKYBUS?

[bgaviator]

yes, you are right Blueline, my bad. For some reason I thought once you hit 150 you had to have four. Only once it's past that 50 seat mark you have to take on an extra FA.

 

[ttuite]

yes, you are right Blueline, my bad. For some reason I thought once you hit 150 you had to have four. Only once it's past that 50 seat mark you have to take on an extra FA.

I flew on Easy Jet over in Europe. They have the same configuration. They told me that they liked having the 4th flight attendant because they can sell more product that way. The increase in sales more than offsets the additional pay. They also have 2 additional hands to help during the turns. Perhaps the same logic applies to Skybus.

 

[bgaviator]

oh I'm sure the same logic applies, absolutely...especially if they get to charge their top fares for those extra six seats it more than makes up for paying the extra FA.

 

[JJET44]

yeah, I wish people would stop comparing SX to Inday...different concept, different operating costs.

Same moves as Indy's last 8 months of existance.
If you want people to stop comparing the two then maybe they should stop taking plays out of Indy's End-of-Op's playbook.

 

[bgaviator]

Same moves as Indy's last 8 months of existance.
If you want people to stop comparing the two then maybe they should stop taking plays out of Indy's End-of-Op's playbook.

I am not that familiar with Indy Air's full history. Can you explain your statement a little further? All I know is I was working at Dayton Internation one day and saw an Indy Air RJ land and I had no idea who they even were...I had heard no news or press about it...but it seems almost as soon as they were in Dayton, they were gone.

 

[temcgrew]

I flew on Easy Jet over in Europe. They have the same configuration. They told me that they liked having the 4th flight attendant because they can sell more product that way. The increase in sales more than offsets the additional pay. They also have 2 additional hands to help during the turns. Perhaps the same logic applies to Skybus.

Pay wise it's only like having 2 F/A's onboard anyway.

 

[JJET44]

Indy was a LCC that morphed from ACA. ACA was a regional for United and Delta. During United's bankruptcy they through away ACA's contract and made them rebid. ACA would not accept United's terms and went off on their own. They used a combination of 86 CRJ's and about 10 A319's as Independence Air. They used the Airbuses for Florida and the west coast. Only after about six months of operations they started to cut west coast cities stating that they could make more money and save cost on fuel utilizing the A319's for routes on the east coast. Indy went out of business in Jan. of 06.

I compared the two in the fact that they both cut west coast cities to save money. The fact that a company starts changing their business so early in the game tells me that they are starting to conserve cash to keep in business. Not a good sign!!!

 

[IADBLRJ41]

yeah, I wish people would stop comparing SX to Inday...different concept, different operating costs.

Very different.. Indy pilots did not lower the bar. SX has lowered the bar and then some.. I hope the place goes away quick. What a waste of a jetfuel.

 

[JPAustin]

Comparing Indy to Skybus is apples to oranges. CASM is cheaper in a A319 than a CRJ, so Indy still had 86 lose-money CRJs to contend with. Also, all things equal, there is an optimum range for each aircraft, and frankly, coast to coast in an A319 might push the optimum range (as far as CASM is concerned) down when fuel prices are high. When Indy ended their coast-coast service, fuel costs were much lower (especially if they hedged), so there was more than meets the eye in that situation.

Not to mention there are many different nuances to each model (Indy and Sky) that make it unrealistic to make a wash comparison between the two.

 

[ualdriver]

Also, all things equal, there is an optimum range for each aircraft, and frankly, coast to coast in an A319 might push the optimum range (as far as CASM is concerned) down when fuel prices are high. When Indy ended their coast-coast service, fuel costs were much lower (especially if they hedged), so there was more than meets the eye in that situation.

Actually, all other costs being equal, average CASM is driven down the greater the average distance the aircraft flies. CASM = total costs/available seat-miles. If you put more seat-miles in the denominator, costs being equal, average CASM gets driven down.

What probably happened is one of a few things, and I suspect it had NOTHING to do with fuel costs as, on average, you're paying high average fuel costs no matter where you go. Further average fuel costs per ASM go down the longer that you fly. That fuel cost thing was just a lame "sound bite" for the media to explain away a failure of the airline to make money (or enough money) on those routes.

One of probably a couple or few things happened. One, demand on those markets was just plain low and it was unprofitable. Two, demand was high, but they weren't netting much money, per passenger, for that long distance flight make sense.

For example, let's say Skybus managment figures out that flying CMH-BUR that they can make $10 net, per passenger flying that route. They also figure out that they can make $10 net, per passenger, flying CMH-NH (wherever they fly in New Hampshire, I forget.) Well, if you're going to make $10 bucks per passenger on a flight, you're much better off flying that aircraft a shorter distance and doing that flight several times per day than you are doing that longer flight once a day to make the same money per passenger. In other words, if you're going to make the same total profit flying a plane a shorter distance as you do a longer distance, you're better off flying multiple shorter legs than fewer longer legs per day.

That's why I suspect they dropped those long distance flights.

 

[JPAustin]

Actually, all other costs being equal, average CASM is driven down the greater the average distance the aircraft flies. CASM = total costs/available seat-miles. If you put more seat-miles in the denominator, costs being equal, average CASM gets driven down.

What probably happened is one of a few things, and I suspect it had NOTHING to do with fuel costs as, on average, you're paying high average fuel costs no matter where you go. Further average fuel costs per ASM go down the longer that you fly. That fuel cost thing was just a lame "sound bite" for the media to explain away a failure of the airline to make money (or enough money) on those routes.

One of probably a couple or few things happened. One, demand on those markets was just plain low and it was unprofitable. Two, demand was high, but they weren't netting much money, per passenger, for that long distance flight make sense.

For example, let's say Skybus managment figures out that flying CMH-BUR that they can make $10 net, per passenger flying that route. They also figure out that they can make $10 net, per passenger, flying CMH-NH (wherever they fly in New Hampshire, I forget.) Well, if you're going to make $10 bucks per passenger on a flight, you're much better off flying that aircraft a shorter distance and doing that flight several times per day than you are doing that longer flight once a day to make the same money per passenger. In other words, if you're going to make the same total profit flying a plane a shorter distance as you do a longer distance, you're better off flying multiple shorter legs than fewer longer legs per day.

That's why I suspect they dropped those long distance flights.

You explained it much clearer than UAL. You are right when you say that, all costs equal, more seats drives down CASM. I was referring to the fuel now versus the fuel back in the Indy days and how those prices affect the optimum range of the aircraft based on CASM and RASM (which I forgot to throw into the equation there). You are also right on when you alluded to say that if Skybus is receiving a lower RASM than another carrier on the same coast-coast route, it would need to better match that RASM to the distance (ie, shorter segment w/ higher frequency). In Skybus' coast-coast case (and I presume Indy's as well), they were operating below the optimum RASM for that segment and could not make up for it in frequency. Good insights.

 

[B +]

yeah, I wish people would stop comparing SX to Inday...different concept, different operating costs.

Different concept and costs, but many of the same mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes IDE made was selling all tickets on their own site. No Expedia or Travelocity to help fill the seats. They spent a lot of money advertising in the Washington DC area but next to nothing at all the outstations. As you state in another post you worked at the DAY airport and never heard of IDE! DAY loads were horrible and it was one of the first stations to be cut along with Lansing, Mi. When IDE finally relented and began using the Expedia type sites our load factor jumped up noticably.

I don't know how Skybus loads are running. Since they are private they do not have to release nearly as much info as a public company must. When I check on flights I see I can book flights next week on many routes for 35 bucks. That tells me those flights are not very full.

IDE and Skybus were both unfortunate to launch just as fuel prices were spiking. The business plans and estimates were all built with lower forecasts of fuel cost and having to fight that headwind right out of the gate is tough. Just bad timing for both of them. I am sure fuel is by far the largest cost at Skybus. They have clearly the lowest paid employees, low costs by not using jetways and using the out of town low cost airports. Low cost carriers are hurt the most with rising fuel costs. Southwest is an anomaly because they have done such a great job of hedging. I doubt Skybus has any hedges at all.

IDE had the advantage of a very motivated and experienced employee group. From my conversations with Skybus employees this is not the case at Skybus. Way underpaid employees and no raises in sight. If you do not take care of your employees, they will not take care of your customers.

IDE management made plenty of stupid mistakes and maybe Skybus management will make great decisions. So far I have not seen this happening and I would put my money on Skybus failing. They may well not make it through the long cold low travel season. I hate to see any company fail. Having gone through this at IDE it was not much fun. Unfortunately the reality is that there is a limit to how much red ink you can spill.

I also think the no connection concept is dumb when you are operating a hub in CMH. If you had a large point to point network this might be OK. Trying to sell cokes and trinkets to passengers that have gone out of their way to fly as cheap as possible seems like another loser of an idea. I know I know Ryanair does it.

Anyway good luck but beware of drinking too much koolaid. Many of us (myself included) drank way too much of it at IDE. Keep that resume current because you may need it on short notice.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I wonder how the passengers feel walking through a blizzard right now to board the plane.

 

[jaybird]

Kcef

I was in Westover (KCEF) last trip. The airport advertised as Hartford, CT. It has to be one of the most ghetto terminal operations I've seen!

BTW, I heard attrition was high at skybust. any truth to that?

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

I dont believe a single thing they told anyone at Skybus...The entire managment is full of losers and liars...and they will look you straight in the face and lie to you.They couldn't answer a single question anyone asked them at any time...their days are numbered.

Surprised you would infer that as the VP of Operations came out of Delta and is one of the most reputable guys you'll ever meet. Any Delta pilot or employee that ever worked with him would take great exception to that statement.

On the other side of the coin, the model is unlike anything we've seen here in the states. It will be interesting to see if it works.

 

[ACT700]

Very different.. Indy pilots did not lower the bar. SX has lowered the bar and then some.. I hope the place goes away quick. What a waste of a jetfuel.

Please excuse me while I laugh (my a$$ off)!!!

And before you go off, let me clarify what I'm laughing about:

Indy-and any regional pilots-lower the bar. That's right, you all not only have lowered the bar, but insist on it staying low.
I'll ask again, is there a crew line at the welfare office, or do you all have to stand inline with everyone else??!!

And the really funny thing is, all you regional guys are on the regional board cursing each other, about how Mesa is worse than Eagle, and ASA is better than Skywest, etc. YOU ALL SUCK!

Now, I have to say that I agree that 30000 for a A320 FO sucks.
But, there will always be pilots out there who will go out and do it for less.

In 50 years, if we're still kicking, we'll be on here discussing the good old days, when an A319 FO made 30000 a year, and how good they had it!!!

 

[skiandsurf]

Indy-and any regional pilots-lower the bar. That's right, you all not only have lowered the bar, but insist on it staying low.

You are an idiot. Prior to Indy Air, it was ACA (United Express). UAL was bankrupt and trying to cut all of their costs. They were able to renegociate deals with the other Express carriers, but ACA (and the employees) said "F*** you". The people at ACA/Indy Air were not going to lower the bar, even if it meant losing their jobs.

Before you post, get your facts straight.

 

[B +]

You are an idiot. Prior to Indy Air, it was ACA (United Express). UAL was bankrupt and trying to cut all of their costs. They were able to renegociate deals with the other Express carriers, but ACA (and the employees) said "F*** you". The people at ACA/Indy Air were not going to lower the bar, even if it meant losing their jobs.

Before you post, get your facts straight.

What he said! ACT700 is clueless on this.

 

[ACT700]

Idiot, well, that's a relative word.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on Indy/ACA, just picking up on a previous response.
However, these numbers speak for themselves:

(FO starting pay copied from airline pilot central)

Air Wisconsin: 25/hr
Compass: 23/hr
Piedmont: 25/hr
A. Eagle: 24/hr
Skywest: 19/hr
Comair: 22/hr

and the list goes on.

And don't tell me about having to pay my dues, or surviving the first year crap.
I did that when I started out, and chose not to backstab people for a nice rj job.

When an 18 year old McDonalds manager makes more than a pilot of this capacity, there's something wrong.

Bottom line is, as long as we/you all argue with each other about who lowered the bar, or which regional is a bigger scumbag outfit, the other side will always win!

Time to accept responsibility.

Discuss.

 

[FBN0223]

Would I ever consider being a Skybus....

....Customer. No!!! After walking through the snow, sleet, and rain, I am greeted by a bunch of employees wearing t-shirts as a uniform who try to sell me stuff. Doesn't sound like any fun.

....Pilot. Never!!! Non-union and wages from the 1930s. Shame on you.