why is aviation degree SO bad?

[Riddle momma]

A couple of ways to look at it:

As a pilot, you gain most of the knowlege you need while you get your certificates right? I mean you learn aerodynamics, performance, regulations, systems and all that in ground school.
I DID go to Riddle, and although I trully value my degree, I don't think I'd be a bad pilot had I not taken the MD80 Autopilot class, or the global navigation class, or the dreaded flight physiology!

An aviation degree is not a bad thing to get, it's just that if you put yourself in a sales recruiter position and look at this resume that says: BS in Aeronautical Science, Minor in meteorology, he'll be naturally inclined in asking what courses did that include, or what experience with customer service have you had. Your answer to the first question would be so far over his head, he'd just nod and smile, and ask the second question. To this you say, well, I greeted passesngers in the terminals (I don't see that too often), and thanked them for flying our airline. Sure he might have been impressed that you were a pilot, but our field just doesn't quite mesh with anything else...

With unemployment rates so high, there are plenty of people with more useful degrees than Aviation. So, although an aviation degree is great for pilots, it's not so versatile.

 

[pilotyip]

What do yo want?

What do you want? I have nothing against a college degree, however the college degree is not the end all in a pilot's career. The degree and a career as a pilot are two different issues. Too much value is put on the value of 4 yr degree in aviation and it is misplaced. What do you want to do, become a pilot and get a flying job no matter what, or do you want to have a "life style" making lots of money, lots of days off, only work when he wants to by bidding lines he likes, and free travel all over? It makes me think of the pilot at meet at Air Inc in ATL in 2000 who was pursuing life style, before he had the hours for his first job. Any one reading this board can make it as a pilot provided the talent and desire are there and eventually make it to a point where they can live on what they make, it may not be a "major", but it might be a good charter operation, a good corporate job, a regional, or something involving flying airplanes. It is hard, it is lots of moves, you go where the next job is, it is living in flop houses with 4 other pilots and one bathroom down the hall, it is not buying any new underwear for one year, it is driving a car that you jump start from the battery you keep in the apt on a charger, it is being 100% subservient to your bosses wishes until you can move to your next job and he gives you a good recommendation, it is saying no to your brothers birthday party, it is saying no to being home a Christmas. Come to think about it, this sounds alot like being in the Navy, except for the underwear part. They made us get new stuff. You do not need a 4 yr degree to make it as a successful pilot, in fact you may get to the non "major" level of flying quicker without the time wasted in the pursuit of the 4 yr degree. When you go for your job interview at 22-23 years of age and the non-college pilot has 2500 TT hours, 15000 MEL, 1000 Turbin and the college grad has 350TT, with 25 MEL, who will get the job? You need a talent for flying, you need a most gracious personality that focuses on what you can give and not what you can take, and a goal is sight that you will pursue no matter what. I know this post will probably bring out some different views, because it so politically incorrect, and besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry, so what would I know about an aviation career.

 

[avbug]

Man, oh man. That sounds familiar. Except I that I finally got a new car battery.

You got underwear at least every 12 months? You lucky buggar!

That's what I sent to my brother for his birthday when I couldn't go. I was always told to buy something you can use, when looking for a gift.

 

[flywithastick]

"Why is an aviation degree so bad?"

This all depends on the vantage point. From someone familiar with the civillian aviation industry (and maybe some mil), it's not all bad. In almost any other industry, it has no name recognition and possibly no technical merit.

As for the petrochem manufacturing, refining and industrial engineering & construction world, it would be near worthless. Very few if any would have the slightest idea what these degrees entail or any idea about these specialized schools.

Someone said all degrees (paraphrasing) were useless after 10 yrs of work. Generally, I don't believe that's correct. Most professional jobs I know of have minimum educational requirements - BS science, BS business, BS liberal arts, etc. One may not use the knowledge gained from earning the degree, but are requirements for employment.

you ever want to get a job in an industry other than flying/aviation, you need a degree that's valued by other industries. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

All I've seen so far are opinions. I appreciate the discussion, but there's no real evidence, yet, that the aviation degree is worthless.

/B]

It's not so much that an aviation degree is worthless, the meat of the matter is that it will generally not help you get a flying job.

Airspur:
The FACT of the matter is that most professional pilots do not have aviation degrees. That is fact and not opinion. There's nothing wrong with getting an aviation degree, but I think for those wondering which way to go, the advice given by an overwhelming number of pilots to go in a different direction for your studies is good advice.

I'm another geography major and I can say without hesitation that it has enahnced my line of work and been quite invaluable in my travels for reasons that would take me too long to go into here.

 

[Joseph II]

I work in an aviation company where most of my co-workers have aviation degrees. I have an associates degree in electronics and my CFI-A.

Although I do not know jack about turbine engines, or how to fly a B737 simulator, I guarantee I am as good as the rest of those around me. I also believe I came to the job with some experience outside of aviation (computer programming, automation, computer repair) that others have no clue about. It is not 100% directly related to what I do, but at least I've worked for companies that produce products other then aviation related goods.

I'm going to school on my company’s dime. I am looking at a degree in Computer Science. Why? Because those around me already have aviation degrees and I have the job a new aviation degree grad would expect to get and our company has a programming department that pays 20k more then what I am making now.

I want to fly for a living but that has not materialized yet.

It's all about having a backup plan.

 

[learflyer]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I'm thinking about an Aviation Management course at riddle, FIT or somewhere else via a correspondence course. So far this thread has talked mostly about an "aeronautical science" degree being "useless". "What do you guys think about "Aviation Management"? I think being an Airport Manager might be a good back up plan. So in my opinion, if you want a "useful" non flying job as a backup, maybe Airport management might be a useful degree to get. Thanks.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now geography (w/ an emphasis on cartography), that is awesome for a pilot to have. You look out the window, and BAM!, geography everywhere. I would love to fly with you, Typhoon! I could learn so much from you.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...

 

[stillaboo]

NO, it's not sarcasm. I would love to fly with a geography or cartography guy.

My grandfather was a geologist; he has an obsession with maps and rocks. When I flew with him, he spent most of the flight pointing out all the places he'd worked. He'd never seen the areas he had been paid to survey in the 60's from the air before. Apparently, airline's don't do circles and second passes over remote areas of the country at the behest of the passenger. IT was great that I could provide him with the opportunity to see his interest from a new perspective.

Incidentally, he thought it would have been alot easier to find oil from the air.

 

[bobbysamd]

Non-Aeronautical Science degree

What do you guys think about "Aviation Management"? I think being an Airport Manager might be a good back up plan. So in my opinion, if you want a "useful" non flying job as a backup, maybe Airport management might be a useful degree to get.

Sure, why not? That would be a good choice, though I have read on this board about Aeronautical Science majors getting jobs in airport management.

Other good aviation-related choices include Meteorology. The obvious career choice and path notwithstanding, met majors study physics, math and science. That background can qualify them as science teachers in school. Also, Aeronautical Engineering, for the same reason and others.

The long and short of it, again, is get a degree.

 

[de727ups]

Pilot YIP

"besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry"

With all due respect...maybe if you had a degree you wouldn't be...

You've been around long enough that, had you had the degree, maybe you would be number 857 at UPS instead of me. You seem to knock the lifestyle but I'd rather be in my shoes than yours. But to each his own.

I also wanted to say I agreed with your fine post. If someone wanted to shoot for the middle of the pack of the career field rather than the top....I think it would be better to not waste your time with a degree.

 

[vossdr1]

A degree should not be used to get a job. It should be sought and attained to help structure thought and enrich your life. Some people don't have time and/or money to pursue flying and a non-aviation degree simultaneously, so it makes sense for them to get an aviation degree and kill two birds with one stone.

If I had the time and money, I'd love to get a degree in another field.

Airspur, my degree in aviation did not help to get a non-flying job. I think potential employers (non-aviation) knew the job market was in the toilet and were hesitant about hiring me. But, thank God-I got a flying job instead.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: What do yo want?

When you go for your job interview at 22-23 years of age and the non-college pilot has 2500 TT hours, 15000 MEL, 1000 Turbin and the college grad has 350TT, with 25 MEL, who will get the job?

If the job requires a college degree, the grad will get it, of course.

He'll probably be able to spell "turbine," too...and he'll wonder how the other guy ended up having more multi time than total.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

A degree should not be used to get a job. It should be sought and attained to help structure thought and enrich your life.

riiiigggght.

What was this guy smoking in college?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

The structure and shaping is a positive by-product of formal education, but if that's the only reason people went, well, they wouldn't go. Just a hunch. I could be wrong.

 

[NookyBooky]

hmmmm

Some reasons not to go to ERAU:

1. No girls.

2. No girls.

3. No girls.

On a serious note, I am transfering next year, but probably not to ERAU. I have considered ERAU because it was a way of getting my flight training and degree at the same time. That appealed to me (and still does) because It is a very direct way to a carreer in aviation.

If you have the grades, you can go to MIT or Stanford for about the same price, Caltech for a little cheaper, or Berkley for much, much cheaper. A degree from ERAU may cost the same as a degree from MIT, but it is not worth the same. Whether or not those schools are a consideration is more or less irrelevent, what is relevent is that ERAU charges you the same amount for something of much less value.

If your not interested in those schools (MIT doesn't have to many girls either), there is plenty of other excellent schools that are cheap enough that you can get your degree and still have enough money left over to get your flight training and save some money in the long run. Plus at those other schools you may get the chance to hang out with chicks and maybe even get laid on a regular basis.

I myself have chosen to go to UCSD and then onto a more prestigous (less fun) school for my M.S. in Econ and get my flight training from ATP ASAP, because I can get a BS form one of top ten public schools in the nation, a M.S. from one of the best schools in the world, AND my flight training for less than the cost of one B.S. degree from ERAU. Not to mention the fact that I don't have to give up good ol' T&A for 2-3 years.

Oh yeah, my "worthless pieces of paper" will get me a job lucrative enough to buy my own planes should I lose my med or decide against professional aviation.

A degree is just a paper, a paper worth only as much as the person who wholds it, but it will open doors-bigtime. Just look into where Presidents, V.P.s, Astronauts, C.E.Os, etc. got their degrees.

Anyways, if you want to fly and nothing else, ERAU probably is a good choice, but you might want to remember that Pilots may go extinct, so to speak, in the forseable future.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: hmmmm

...you might want to remember that Pilots may go extinct, so to speak, in the forseable future.

I think I hear a maglev coming...

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot YIP

"besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry"

With all due respect...maybe if you had a degree you wouldn't be...

Yip and I barely agree on the degree (sorry), but I recall that he has a Bachelor's, either from Michigan or Michigan State, and a Master's.

So many people seem to feel that the degree alone will get you a job. Not so at all. Aside from the education and training provided by college, the degree is just another credential, a strong credential at that, that can help open doors.

When you think about it, pilots really have little control over their quals. Fate and luck, and not always hard work and skill, determine the flight time and experience we can offer. We do have control over our educational and training credentials. We can decide if we want to obtain the best education and training credentials possible. My $0.02 opinion, borne out of experience, is you shoot yourself in the foot if you fail to do so. It's your choice.

 

[pilotyip]

For 727UPS

Luck and timing have much more to do with your present position than you may give them credit for. Skill and desire alone will not guarantee anyone to go exactly where they want to go. As Capt. E. Gann said so well in this business we are all Hostages to Fortune. See PM

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Non-Aeronautical Science degree

The long and short of it, again, is get a degree.

There's no way to say it better.

 

[de727ups]

Re: For 727UPS

Luck and timing have much more to do with your present position than you may give them credit for. Skill and desire alone will not guarantee anyone to go exactly where they want to go. As Capt. E. Gann said so well in this business we are all Hostages to Fortune. See PM

I won't discount luck and timing....but you have no control over those things. The things you DO have control over (degree, no DUI's, networking) need to be managed to your best benefit. I maintain that I wouldn't be where I am today without the degree and, since I was shooting for the top, am glad I got one.

PilotYIP said in his PM that he has a degree, is ex-military, was well qualified, and WAS shooting for the top but wound up where he is...and is happy with that.

If he speaks anything about this business, it's that no matter what you do or how you prepare, there are no guarantees as to what level of the career you will end up at.

 

[bobbysamd]

Career

[N]o matter what you do or how you prepare, there are no guarantees as to what level of the career you will end up at.

Ain't that the truth? Take it from someone who knows, all too well.

It could have been worse. I might not have received any chance at all. It depends on your point of view; either the glass is half empty or half full.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Career

...either the glass is half empty or half full.

Are you sure it's not just too big?

 

[NookyBooky]

Not trying to sound ignorant here but...

Who or what is Maglev? And btw Stillaboo where did you get that fine example of an avatar?

 

[Toy Soldier]

The only time a "type specific" degree will be necessary is if you are looking for a "type specific" job. Most companies ( I know, I have hired over 200 folks in my years) looked for "degrees", period (and EXPERIENCE/ACCOMPLISHMENTS).

It becomes important to back up the degree (whichever it is) with a healthy dose of 1) experience, and 2) accomplishments.

A "fancywansy" degree won't mean much if you flipped burgers for 8 years and built NO experience after getting the degree. By the same token, someone with years of managerial experience can get by without a "fancywansy" degree.

It depends on your target market and where you want to work. You could also become overqualified too...

Like I said, set yourself up to the best of your ability and do the best you can with what you have. The rest will work itself out. After all, if you decide to REALLY make a career change, then go and "upgrade" your education with current training....

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Not trying to sound ignorant here but...

Who or what is Maglev?

A maglev ("magnetic levitation") train is one that has no wheels. Instead, it skims along a track held a few inches aloft by a strong magnetic field. This allows it to achieve great speeds. Prototypes are operating in Japan, I think.

According to Skyboss, one of our more celebrated members, maglev trains will make airline pilots and their machines obsolete in the next decade or two.

 

[pilotyip]

No degrees

Lets see I don't think Bill Gates has a degree, I know the two top guys who started Jet Blue don't have degrees. We have had pilots hired at SWA, Delta, and Northwest without degrees. I have two nieces, 4 yr degrees from Mich State Univ, in Art, one lives at home, one sells clothes at Old Navy. The degree by itself means nothing. For a guy who will be happy making a 100K per year as a pilot in his mid 30's, an aviaton degree is really a waste of money.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: Re: Not trying to sound ignorant here but...

A maglev ("magnetic levitation") train is one that has no wheels. Instead, it skims along a track held a few inches aloft by a strong magnetic field. This allows it to achieve great speeds. Prototypes are operating in Japan, I think.

Last I heard the US is the only country with operational MagLev train in svc, which is at Old Dominion University. Others are experimental or prototypes.