Why do they still come?

[BR549]

I don't know what the lure is anymore. Years ago things were obviously different. Now its just a joke. Why are there so many people that want to "fly for a living" when you know how crappy it is? Maybe they are blind and think that things will change for the better and go back to normal. ( 4yrs at regional (crap job) then major (big bucks)) But as I see it with eyes wide open - There basically will be no "major" to step up to eventually (or already). Airline management knows what they are doing, taking advantage of the large # of pilots out there. Jet time doesnt mean anything anymore. Its all about - are you willing to work for low pay and high abuse as a career. Apparrently this is in ASA's own interview questions - check it out on www.willflyforfood.cc/. Its like asking you if you are retarded right to you face!



the ASA question was/is - Would I fly for a career if it was always going to be low pay?


The person got hired...I imagine his answer was the one they were looking for...

 

[wheelsup]

marketing


(flight school's that is).

~wheelsup

 

[Nindiri]

Why?

Because it still beats working 9-5 in an office.

 

[N813CA]

How does working a 14-16 hour day and get paid 7 yours a better job than a 9-5 job?????

 

[MINIME]

I think it's lack of education on the field, denial, and lots of good ol brainwashing by some that stand to profit.

 

[pilotyip]

negative vibes, it is still a great carrer. Where else can a HS grad plan on making make close to $100K by the time they reach their mid 30's. Planes will always be flying they will need pilots. I feel anyone who really likes to fly airplanes can make this a great career.

 

[Snakum]

I gotta agree with YIP ... perhaps you guys are looking at it from the perspective of someone who dreamed of flying for a regional for a few years then going to Delta. Maybe $90K per year in an RJ is an insult to you, after all those years of struggle. And you guys at the regionals DO struggle. I've said before, I don't know how you guys do it. I salute you!

But I'm not going the regional route, and won't suffer quite as much, and I expect to land a decent corporate or charter gig that will allow me to eventually make $60K - $80K doing something I love. That's good enough for me, and most days it beats going into the office and staring at a computer all day for $50K.

I really don't think it's all doom and gloom. Not all of aviation. Just the normal career track of CFI-->Freight-->Regional-->Major. That is definitely going to be a rare accomplishment and most will be stuck at the third rung. And since most people on that path are looking at the brass ring (the Major $$$ and lifestyle), and since most will never make it there ... yeah ... it probably looks bad to you guys. Your expectations are just different from mine.


Minh

 

[Bluestreaker]

negative vibes, it is still a great carrer. Where else can a HS grad plan on making make close to $100K by the time they reach their mid 30's. Planes will always be flying they will need pilots. I feel anyone who really likes to fly airplanes can make this a great career.

Yeah, HS grad.

 

[BeCareful!]

yeah.....uh, huhuhuh.......high school was cool.......uh, huhuhuhu

 

[aviator7]

well said snakum. the money at a corporate gig at the top end may not be as high as if you ended up at a major but how many of us are going to end up there anymore? the quality of life in cororate (at least my last job) was a heck of a lot better than what i'm dealing with now in the regionals. i wish i never would have left my old job.
yes the regionals are a pretty crappy flying job now. i think that people don't realize it until they actually get here and work for a little bit. i certainly didn't think it was like this before i came here or else i would have never left my old job. at least there i actually had fun flying unlike here where i try to avoid it as much as possible.
people who aren't in the airline industry yet don't understand how crappy it is and how slim their chances of making 150K+ at the majors are though. they still see the "glamour" of he industry until they actually get here and then they get the tough dose of reality.

 

[aviator7]

negative vibes, it is still a great carrer. Where else can a HS grad plan on making make close to $100K by the time they reach their mid 30's. Planes will always be flying they will need pilots. I feel anyone who really likes to fly airplanes can make this a great career.

not many people end up making 100K by their 30's. i know i'm not and i started flying right after college. maybe those mesa or flight safety boys that jumped into the regionals when they were 21 but i went to college and got a regular degree i can fall back on in case this industry gets worse than it is already.

 

[J32driver]

I GOT IT! I know what the industry needs!

You know that show on the Discovery Channel... "The World's Deadliest Catch". We need something like that with a focus on airline pilots. Call it "The World's most misunderstood Salaries!"

Get a bunch of camera crews and follow around half a dozen crew members for a year. Get a broad spectrum: the broke and heavily in debt yet stupidly optomistic college kid, the flight instructor risking his life for $20,000 a year, the regional FO living on food stamps, the regional CPT who is stuck making $60,000 for the rest of his career while spending 18 days away from home every month, the 30 year FO at USAirways who is going to retire next year with nothing because the company took everything and his ex-wife took half of everything else, and then finally the 777 Captain at American who is 1 month from retirement. The guy that everyone else wants to be, the guy that 80% of us probably will never be after putting up with all the crap this industry has to offer.

I don't know... I think theres at least one season of material there to make a TV show with. Show us commuting to work and stressing because all the D A M N E D flights are full. You could show the regional FO sleeping on the floor of the crew lounge because he can't afford the hotel room. You could show us waking up at 0330 to go fly for 16 hours in just NASTY weather. How about showing us going for 12 hours without a meal break and then flying ANOTHER approach to minimums. You could follow us around on Thanksgiving and Christmas day living in a hotel and starving because all the restaraunts are closed for the holidays to let their workers spend the time with their families. And best of all, you could show us getting Junior Manned to fly another 24 hours when we finally think we are going to go home and play with our badly neglected families!

Tell me again why I do this stupid job!!!

 

[aviator7]

now that would be an awesome reality show!

 

[atlcrashpad]

Career choices

I made the career choice to enter the “World of Professional Aviation” a long time ago. Times certainly have changed since then. I still have not changed my mind on the choice I made. Flying an RJ for $70K is not a bad career. I would rather be in a 747-400 crossing the “pond”, but life doesn’t always deal you the correct hand. I am content with my position and $70K surely pays my bills. It is about being happy, not the money. There are those out there that will get the cards in their favor and I’m happy for them. There are also the ones who will complain even if making $400K per yr with 20 days off per month. It is all about the choices we make and if we are happy with those choices. A final note, everyone at one (or more) times in their life gets pi$$ed off at their jobs.

 

[michael707767]

negative vibes, it is still a great carrer. Where else can a HS grad plan on making make close to $100K by the time they reach their mid 30's. Planes will always be flying they will need pilots. I feel anyone who really likes to fly airplanes can make this a great career.

The days of any pilot making 100K by his thirties are gone. The rapid upgrades of the regionals were largely fueled by guys leaving to go to the majors. That isn't happening much now. Plus the regionals are starting to shrink a little, just like the majors. Upgrades at both the regionals are majors will be a long time coming in the future. I would not go into this career today. Heck, I would not have gone into it 15 years ago if I had known where it would end up.

 

[Tank Commander]

Why do they still come? No boss looking over your shoulder, not sitting in a cubicle all day. Lot of reasons.
You could leave the industry and go down the road I just left. The military is hiring. Your wage will be close to regional pay. Small differences though. You now serve a cause that is not based around your wants or welfare. Self-sacrifice becomes away of life. You would tear your body up to the point after 20 years not much you could do. I only speak of the military because that is all I really know. You ask why do they still come? This profession is not physically demanding. I had major back surgery, reconstructive surgery on my right leg and face, and I can do it. I'm not condoning the Q/L and pay in the industry. But when you ask why do they still come? Well I think its a no brainer......

 

[T-prop]

the flight instructor risking his life for $20,000 a year,

That's a little optimistic, how about $10,000-$13,000/year.

Another person they could follow is an RAA grad trying to pay his $140,000 student loan on first year FO pay ($800/mo payment). You know, follow him from his last day at the academy through the first year of flying at a regional and watch live on television his illusions of this career become a nightmare.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

I GOT IT! I know what the industry needs!

You know that show on the Discovery Channel... "The World's Deadliest Catch". We need something like that with a focus on airline pilots. Call it "The World's most misunderstood Salaries!"

I don't know... I think theres at least one season of material there to make a TV show with.

That's the best idea I've heard in a long time! Instead of Bon Jovi and "Dead or Alive", they could use another kick-a$$ song like Pink Floyd's "Learning to fly." It's always been been frustrating to know that the public has all these wrong ideas about the life of the airline pilot. Call your Cable or Satellite providers folks!

MM

 

[FN FAL]

...You could follow us around on Thanksgiving and Christmas day living in a hotel and starving because all the restaraunts are closed for the holidays...

Dude...I put the money in the little red bucket, I can't help it if you can't find your way to the soup kitchen! :nuts:

 

[RichardRambone]

How about the look on peoples face when you tell them your a pilot? At least you get respect (from most people) when the look at you like your superhuman and know something they dont.

 

[F16fixer]

And that's the attitude that's going to keep bringing dumbasses back to UND and dropping 80,000-90,000 on flight training . Man I cannot stand flying with people who think they are better than someone else just because they are a pilot and carry that chip on their shoulder! I hope this is not you

How about the look on peoples face when you tell them your a pilot? At least you get respect (from most people) when the look at you like your superhuman and know something they dont.

 

[nickfaith]

From the perspective of someone in an industry that also is "fun and glamorous, and high paying"=

I worked in radio, then televison for the better part of the last 6 years. The most I ever made in radio in one year was $20,000. I worked 6-7 days a week, at least 55 hours every week. I know a few people that made over $40K, but maybe only one or two, and the station owned them.

In television, I was a director, the most I made in one year (after lots and lots of overtime) was $32,000. The station owned me, always on call, worked 6-7 days a week, and it was a very high stress job, with every mistake seen by 100,000 people, as welll as management that was always watching.

I'll take flying a plane, making similiar money, having at the very least 7-8 days off a month over either of those two careers. My second year, I'll make as much as I did in TV.

That's why people still come, because it is better than other careers. If all you've known is the CFI-Freight-REgional-major thing, I guess it isn't as great as you dreamed, but if you've worked in fields that are very boring, long hours, hardly a day off. It really doesn't sound so bad, and the money, depending on where you live, isn't really too bad after a couple years.

 

[RichardRambone]

And that's the attitude that's going to keep bringing dumbasses back to UND and dropping 80,000-90,000 on flight training . Man I cannot stand flying with people who think they are better than someone else just because they are a pilot and carry that chip on their shoulder! I hope this is not you

Thats absolutely not me. If you think your better than someone else b/c you dropped Dad's money and you happen to be a trainable monkey you're a fool. People outside of us pilots just are ignorant to the fact that we're people like everyone else but we happend to make a living flying b/c we happened to discovered it.

 

[F16fixer]

Hey, just checkin!
Best of luck

On a lighter note I heard that Pinnacle might be receiving 70 seaters by the end of the year and hiring is going to boom again (there anyway). In reality it will probably end up like Mesabas CRJ deal and go in the toilet. This came from one of the members in my flying club that flys for them. Just rumors, but that's better than more furlough rumors!

Thats absolutely not me. If you think your better than someone else b/c you dropped Dad's money and you happen to be a trainable monkey you're a fool. People outside of us pilots just are ignorant to the fact that we're people like everyone else but we happend to make a living flying b/c we happened to discovered it.

 

[11thHour]

Because, as much as the industry has gone downhill, it's still better than most of the other rat race jobs/careers out there. Even normally respected careers such as lawyer/doctors are starting to get their share of $hit. My uncle is a family doctor, he hates it. My aunt is a dentist, she hates it (although she does make good money). Job cuts, pay freezes, pension cuts, etc etc, are becoming the norm in nearly every industry out there. Not just pilots are feeling the crunch. My buddy from college has a decent paying ($80,000/yr)IT job, guess what? He's trying to change careers! He works 70 - 80- hours, PER WEEK! Face it, the notion of a plush dream job is fading, in the end, they're all just that, a job.

 

[Irish Pilot]

No matter how long my days are, no matter how ugly my FO, no matter how much Dispatch pisses me off, no matter how many times scheduling gives me the shaft, no matter my less than perfect paycheck, no matter how big my school debt...

It beats workin for a living.

I too have entertained the notion of maybe leaving flying for a higher paying job. I dont think I can do it...but if I ever did I would certainly be doing it with the knowledge that nothing else is going to give me as much happiness as far as a career goes...yes maybe more money and more time off...but nothing quite as enjoyable. I feel for you (mostly regional guys it seems) people who truly seem to hate your job. I fear that it may take a large sacrifice (leaving a job you love but just dont know it) to find out just how much you love flying...even at your current position.

I wish I could drop that "If you are this pissed off you probably dont belong in the pilot world - arent cut out for it." It can be a cruel, crummy industry...theres no two ways about it. I also wish I could say that if you love flying so much you should be willing to bend over backwards to do it, and to an extent that is true...but dont let another person (or company, or airline, etc.) belittle your experience, training, and devotion...dont let them interpret your passion for flying to mean you will do it for next to nothing!

Nonetheless. If you really love flying work hard and focus on what is important to you. If career satisfaction doesnt rank that high maybe its time for you to shift your focus to something that is more supportive to family life. My wife and I talk about me getting out of flying every once in awhile (though I have only been flying professionally for 3 years.) but once it gets down to it she says...

"I know it may seem like the right road to leave flying, but you know you wont be happy at home if you are not truly happy at work. Most likely anything other than flying is going to have you pissed off all the time."

Maybe so. Maybe its better to be a disgruntled pilot than a pissed off person. I think it is.

I will certainly reinforce the notion that if you got into flying to make $200,000 a year and only work a few days a month it may be time to walk away. But if flying airplanes makes you feel like a kid in a toystore...keep working with it! I truly think things will work out in the long run.

Anyway...enough of my ramblings lol. When push comes to shove a bad day of flying is always better than a good day at "work" or something like that

Best of luck to all of you. For those of you who do love flying and can bring that passion to work everyday I really look forward to flying with you.

My current job sounds better and better every day. I just wish it was back home!

 

[ex j-41]

You forgot!

You could follow us around on Thanksgiving and Christmas day living in a hotel and starving because all the restaraunts are closed for the holidays to let their workers spend the time with their families. And best of all, you could show us getting Junior Manned to fly another 24 hours when we finally think we are going to go home and play with our badly neglected families!

You hit the nail right on the head.....

but you forgot the company christmas card (Fax memo)....the one that says....

"If you call in sick you are fired!"

 

[mother fokker]

Why do they still come? No boss looking over your shoulder, not sitting in a cubicle all day. Lot of reasons.
You could leave the industry and go down the road I just left. The military is hiring. Your wage will be close to regional pay. Small differences though. You now serve a cause that is not based around your wants or welfare. Self-sacrifice becomes away of life. You would tear your body up to the point after 20 years not much you could do. I only speak of the military because that is all I really know. You ask why do they still come? This profession is not physically demanding. I had major back surgery, reconstructive surgery on my right leg and face, and I can do it. I'm not condoning the Q/L and pay in the industry. But when you ask why do they still come? Well I think its a no brainer......

Let's keep riding the bobsled to the bottom. When you apply at Wal mart (not the corporate flying department, instead, the Frontline Greeter position will welcome your Ward Cleaver personality) at least you can attest to what a groovey team player attitude you have in the interview.

 

[schoolio]

Why?

Why?

Let me tell you about my last job. I went to work between 6-7am most days. Usually left about 9pm. Usually took 30 minutes for lunch, if I was lucky. Worked for a boss whose philosophy was essentially "screw family, work comes first". I logged more hours working with Excel and Powerpoint in one year than most of us will fly in our careers. I got to fix severe problems that existed when I arrived at the organization, yet received zero credit or acknowledgment for doing so, and in fact got crapped on even more by idiots that didn't understand the systems we worked with. I got to work weekends and holidays, and about once a month for at least a week at a time (on average), got to sleep in a tent.

And about once a month, as a rated aviator, I got to fly for 2 hours. If I was lucky. But I was still expected to be as proficient as the guys who were flying two, three, four times a week.

I was an Army Aviator (laugh). I was also the battalion logistics officer. The pay wasn't bad at all (about $72K a year incl. flight pay, but no bonuses for commissioned Army aviators). In 7 years I flew 550 hours, 250 of those were in flight school the first year. I fought and fought to try to get designated a PIC, but as chance would have it, I never got the opportunity, even after several very senior PICs vouched for my abilities.

What did I have to look forward to upon getting out if I hadn't decided to pursue a flying career? Becoming a corporate slave, with similar work patterns as I had experienced in the Army (minus deployments and field time). I could have tried grad school, but that would lead to the same path.

Yeah sure, the days will probably suck when you work 14+ and get paid crap, but you're getting paid to do what you love to do. Maybe I'm jaded, because I still absolutely love flying, but at least I know in my heart that flying is what I want to do for a living.

I know, I know, I signed on the dotted line, I did my time, and now I'm done. Do I regret the Army? Not at all. If it weren't for the Army, I wouldn't be where I am today, I wouldn't have met my wife, etc etc. I served my time, I'm proud of that, but I didn't want to do that job for another minute.

But I guess the bottom line, and answer to your question, is because I love to fly, and can't imagine doing anything else for the rest of my life.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The only way you will be truly happy in ANY job is if you have not only the desire to do it, but the PASSION to do it ,too. Lose the passion and the most exciting,well paying job you can find will become nothing more than that.A job.



PHXFLYR