Why do some of you hate Southwest?

[flywithastick]

k-mart airlines. the wave of the future.

Hmmm... K-mart = bankrupt, SWA = profitable airline....... I'm still trying to find the connection on this one.

Texas company, near Waco? Really poor taste on that one, catyaaak. The BATF & FBI's use of CS gas, shooting and burning up those children was a tragedy beyond any joking comment.

don't like SWA because they haven't been changing their paint schemes every two years.

don't like SWA because they seem to have a happy workforce.

don't like SWA because they only fly 73's... you mean airline pilots fly for the selection in aircraft?! I thought it was for $$.

where's the problem?

The only one I can see as legit is the boarding routine. I don't care for that one either. But just understand that that's how it's going to be, sit down, have a beer and read a magazine. The seats aren't any smaller or less comfortable than any other airline. besides, SWA was the only one with juevos big enough to start making the wide-a$$es buy two seats!

I'm a Texan who'd work for SWA any day.

 

[Wiggums]

Re: Response to Cat Yaaak

1, 2, 3 & 5 don't bear responding to...


Yaaak, lets take a basic management job in any other industry - a college degree is an entrance requirement just to be competitive for that position, right? Nobody would expect a perspective employer to pay for that would they? You have to have a pilots license in addition to the type rating don't you? Why don't you insist that your airline of choice pay for that? What about your ATP? What about your commercial multi engine? Sorry pal, your position is infinitely regressive. Find a better argument.

No your scenario works more like this. Take a basic management job. All companies but one only require an MBA to get hired. One company requires an MBA, and then also requires you to take an expensive business seminar after being offered a job, even though they are going to give you the same training when you start employment. The other companies will send you to this business seminar for free when you need it. Fact is that Southwest is the only airline that requires pilots to pay for a type rating.

 

[Dep676]

TXCAP4228,

The new job is great. Thanks for asking.

Fly Safe and have a great Thanksgiving.

P.S.

That's the best part I lucked out and will be home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Not bad for only being there for 2 months.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

"I'm a Texan who'd work for SWA any day."

Amen flywithastick!!!

I absolutley love to fly and as long as I make enough money to live on, which I do now, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. So if I ever decide to to apply to an airline, a downgrade in actual flying, SWA would be the only airline who would hear from me.

Whoever thinks SWA is a pay for training outfit is smoking some serious weed. Suppose a pilot went to Comair and paid them 10 grand or whatever they were charging and for whatever reason, that particular pilot never flew a sortie after training. What good was the training? Absolutely ZERO!! Pilots don't pay SWA a dime and if they never fly a sortie for SWA, then they still have a qualification they can take anywhere. It is simply a qual requirement. Remember the days when TWA and the like would take zero timers off the street and turn them into airline pilots at no expense to the individual? So what happenned? Should potential pilots be expected to have flown a single hour before being hired? How dare an airline require a pilot certificate to be considered for a pilot position.

Maybe SWA could be more truthful and say "get a 737 type and we'll give you the most secure passenger airline job in the United States and work for us until the FAA makes you retire and love every minute of it." Or maybe the "better" airlines could say, "you can work for us until the FAA makes you retire or the next economic downturn whichever occurs first. But we pay more and you'll need it during those years that we won't pay you anything because we have ALPA bleeding us dry, not to mention the fact that we couldn't manage our childrens' lemonade stands, let alone an airline. And when you do actually get the honor of wearing our uniform, you'll love it so much a minute won't go by without you whining."

It's your choice...

 

[Timebuilder]

Forgive my youth and inexperience, but why do some people here hate SWA? Until I came to this board, I've heard nothing but praise for them. So what gives?

I hope you are taking all of this in. The vast majority of opinions you will hear in aviation are based on the perspective of the individual.

 

[bobbysamd]

B737 type

I flew on Southwest a couple of times about fifteen years ago and liked it fine.

I suspect that most of the criticism has to do with needing the 737 type to be considered for the job. Some people think it is a form of you-know-what. It really isn't you-know-what, because you can market the type to anyone besides Southwest who requires it. Another way of looking at it is you might be a furloughee from United who was a 737 captain and already received it on the company's nickel. If that is the case, than no money changed hands between applicant and 737 type provider and, hence, no P-F-T (not that it is).

Maybe the rest of the criticism has to do with Southwest pilots being paid at less than industry norms. An article appeared in Time magazine not too long ago which discussed how that will be an issue for Southwest in the future.

One other thing that I read, in the magazine and in Hard Landing by Petzinger is Southwest employees are treated well and are happy. That means something. Recognition and appreciation can go far to make up for lack of pay. But, not all the way. I have to say that in most of the jobs I've had I've not been treated all that well and have experienced varying degrees of happiness. I left a job where I might have ended up being paid more had I stayed. But, the overall work situation in general and my boss' idiosyncracies (to put it mildly) wouldn't have been worth it.

Being happy and looking forward to going to work each day can make up somewhat for lack of pay, if what you're paid meets your needs. On the other hand, it's been said that money isn't everything, but it is way ahead of whatever is in second place.

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: Response to Cat Yaaak

<<1, 2, 3 & 5 don't bear responding to...>>

Aw, those were my best ones!

<<Yaaak, lets take a basic management job in any other industry - a college degree is an entrance requirement just to be competitive for that position, right?>>

The subject at hand is piloting jobs, not management-puke jobs in "any other industry". But for the sake of debate, I'll play along for moment and live in an imaginary dreamworld somewhere in Texas where you can indeed compare apples (piloting jobs) to oranges (management jobs); <ahem> Why yes TXCAP, a college degree is needed to be competitive to be hired. That's why I have one, and in aviation no less.

Now, using your own comparison, this college degree is all I should need to join the SW cult. If not, why can you, for the sake of allegory, equate apples to oranges, but I can't conversly equate oranges to apples?

<<Nobody would expect a perspective employer to pay for that would they?>>

Actually, it's quite common for a company in the private sector to pay for higher education classes and degrees for their employees if that education is directly related to their job and improves their skills, moving them up the ladder. I'd say training a pilot in the type of aircraft (a 737 for instance) they will be flying on the job qualifies in this regard.

<<You have to have a pilots license in addition to the type rating don't you? Why don't you insist that your airline of choice pay for that?>>

I see we are still in that imaginary world, but this time it's one where the FAA doesn't exist or mandate that we have a pilot's license to fly, even in non-commercial pursuits. To connect that to your flawed apples-to-oranges argument, now you add an additional false premise; that the aforementioned "need" for a college degree to be considered competitive as "a manager in some other industry" somehow equates to a governmental mandate, just as a pilots license is (or are they issuing managers lisences now?). So now, not only does your argument compare apples to oranges, it also straddles the the fence between the physical and metaphysical worlds. Bravo! I'm very impressed by the mental somersaults. Let's not confuse them with logic, however.

<<What about your ATP?>>

What about it? A company I worked for paid for my ATP. In fact, they paid for a type-rating at the same time......after I was hired, that is.

<<What about your commercial multi engine?>>

A commercial license is an FAA requirement to get paid as a pilot, and so getting one is an act required to satisfy the government, not SW. SW requires you to pre-aquire a type-rating, which is not required by the government to be hired or to act as SIC. Like I said before it's bush league, and pointless....except as a loyalty-test for those ready to join the hive and taxi around those big 'ole cockroaches.

<<Sorry pal, your position is infinitely regressive. Find a better argument.>>

"Infinitely regressive"....Wow, such big words. And from a Texan? Unbelievable. I guess someone turned off "Walker" today and picked up a dictionary!

<<1) Hmmm.... maybe the employees at SWA are still smiling because they all still have jobs and their retirement plans (and stock options) are still worth something.>>

Could be.. But then again, the Hara Krishnas have big dopey smiles too.

<<2) As far as quick turns... hmmm, it doesn't take an MBA to figure out that airplanes on the ground make $0.00 while airplanes that are flying have the chance to make money.>>

The whole fractional industry proves you wrong. They make money whether the airplane is flying or sitting. In fact, they make more if it sits. Now that all the airlines are adopting SW's "pax are cattle, pilots are chattel" model, no doubt business travelers will continue to flee like they are now from the "airline experience" as if it were the plague, and take their money with them. Ahh! Just imagine, soon we can all enjoy being relegated to living in the 8-turns-a-day-bring-on-the-flip-flop-crowd Hell ushered in by SW.....and pay for the hoop we have to jump through just to interview! WhoooPeeeee! Gee, where do I sign up?

<<Then again, maybe this really is rocket science and only Texans are able to understand it... >>

Nah, it's just a modern-day version of a Texas cattle drive. You know, herd 'em here, herd 'em there, and pack 'em into cattle cars. Hardly financial "rocket science", it's more like "sitting on trailing edge of technology".....you just go out and round up more stringy-meat Longhorns than the other guy.




Hey there Dep676 - how's the new job? [/B]

 

[sabreliner]

What's the deal with those high speed corn dogs on the ground down in Houston? I swear some of those guys could get the nose off the ground if they pulled the yoke back.

I'd work there if I got offered a job. However, I'm not gonna drop 7 grand on the chance that I MIGHT get an interview, so I guess I won't be getting any job offers from the SWA Cult any time soon.

 

[CatYaaak]

<<Whoever thinks SWA is a pay for training outfit is smoking some serious weed. Suppose a pilot went to Comair and paid them 10 grand or whatever they were charging and for whatever reason, that particular pilot never flew a sortie after training. What good was the training? Absolutely ZERO!! Pilots don't pay SWA a dime and if they never fly a sortie for SWA, then they still have a qualification they can take anywhere>>

You bypassed the weed and went straight to the crack pipe if you think someone without 737 experience can buy a type-rating through a quickie-school, proceed to take it somewhere in the aviation world besides SW, and convince anyone that the still-wet-ink words printed on your certificate represent a "qualification" by any stretch of the imaginination. They may chuckle at your audacity to make such a claim, however, as they pat you on the head and send you away.

You used PFT at Comair as a counterpoint, but without time-in-type experience, it falls into the very same "What good was the training? Absolutely ZERO!!" category. In both these cases of worthless training, it doesn't really matter who you happened to pay your dime to (you still had to pay it); you are discussing two sides of the same coin.

<<How dare an airline require a pilot certificate to be considered for a pilot position.>>

Well, a type rating isn't a certificate, and I don't think anyone is arguing that an airline shouldn't require say, and ATP. But type ratings to a professional pilot are something that goes with the territory, and collected during the course of pursuing the profession...like Easter eggs. Does the SW brainwashing tell you it's okay to charge kids admission to an Easter egg hunt too?

]

 

[starvingcfi]

anyone know of any blue light specials for the holidays? need to fly home for x-mas. i'm sure "luv" is running some kind of midnight madness sale. hehe

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't agree. NO training is "worthless".

You may not be hired by virtue of the ink-still-wet 737 type, but having accomplished it says that you are capable of being trained in the individual carrier's own 737 procedures, and will likely do well. Further, in a race where there are two competitors for a 737 job, and only one has the type, who is more likely to be hired with no experience? That is value.

 

[bigD]

Well, a type rating isn't a certificate, and I don't think anyone is arguing that an airline shouldn't require say, and ATP.

But an ATP isn't required by the government to act as SIC, right? So by your argument - an airline should never require an ATP unless they plan on hiring you directly into the left seat. Now you had your ATP paid for by your employer, which is uber-cool - but is that the norm? <---- this isn't a rhetorical question...I don't know...

 

[Timebuilder]

...I know that MY boss isn't paying for my ATP...

 

[mikecanfly]

Well first off, I think SWA is an excellent airline with a business model that will carry them for a VERY long time! Hat's off to making money!

But I also have to agree with CatYaak!

I have always looked forward to the thought of progressing through many different fleet types in my airline career. While having good employee morale and dang good management definitely softens the blow, it still wouldn't quite be what I pictured...

And last but not least, they traded an ugly brown (don't mean to offend!) for a better, yet still ugly blue/purple/don't really know what color that is! Definitely original, but not on my list of all time paint schemes!!!

Mike

 

[Jetsnake]

And last but not least, they traded an ugly brown (don't mean to offend!) for a better, yet still ugly blue/purple/don't really know what color that is! Definitely original, but not on my list of all time paint schemes!!!

Mike [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't knock a paint scheme that makes $$$.
I used to like the Northwest paint scheme also.
Until someone I was flying with said
"It look's like a bowling shoe"

It's never been the same...

Jetsnake

 

[mar]

This isn't your father's Oldsmobile

I'd love to work for a company *like* SWA but as another poster said, "I ain't droppin' no 7 grand on a type."

I like the Shamu paint scheme

 

[Jetsnake]

Re: This isn't your father's Oldsmobile

I'd love to work for a company *like* SWA but as another poster said, "I ain't droppin' no 7 grand on a type."

I like the Shamu paint scheme

Why not, there's nothing but fear and common sense
holding you back. I put my 7 grand in military benefits
toward a house.

I'm curious, were did you put your military benefits to
work for you. I hope not like the other PFT pilots out there.
Oh, that's right, your military benefits don't pay for training.

The old PFT way. Such as, you have the job, pay us $xxx.xx
and if you pass you check ride your hired.

I'd like to think that my UPT, be rather thought as

Paving
Future
Turds

And I'm the steam roller!!!!

That is what people like you and the Clinton's have
forecast this industry into.

Hillary would be proud of you...

Jetsnake

 

[CatYaaak]

<<Texas company, near Waco? Really poor taste on that one, catyaaak. The BATF & FBI's use of CS gas, shooting and burning up those children was a tragedy beyond any joking comment.>>

Oh, I wasn't joking about the tragedy of dead children at Waco. That would indeed be in poor taste. No, I was merely pointing out that Texas seems to produce more than it's fair share of cults.

<<don't like SWA because they haven't been changing their paint schemes every two years.>>

It's not that they don't change them, it's just that the one they do have makes them resemble cockroaches to the point that whenever I see one I half-expect a huge, godlike foot to come down from the heavens and stomp it. Hey, I just noticed something.....did you know that by using letters found only in the word "cockroaches", you can spell the name "Koresh". Ooooooo....weird, huh? (Do dee doo doo, Do dee doo doo)

<<don't like SWA because they seem to have a happy workforce.>>

I believe I already explained the Puppetmaster, Indoc, and the Hive. Automatons can easily be programmed to grin.

<<don't like SWA because they only fly 73's... you mean airline pilots fly for the selection in aircraft?! I thought it was for $$.>>

Oftimes the two are related because of the amount of potential revenue they can generate, but that was not my point. My point was; Flying a 737 decade in and decade out would get friggin' boring! BORING! One airplane type.....forever. Looks like SW figured out how to suck the last drop of fun out of flying the others airlines hadn't yet.

<<where's the problem?>>

All over the place. Everywhere.

<<The only one I can see as legit is the boarding routine. I don't care for that one either. But just understand that that's how it's going to be, sit down, have a beer and read a magazine. The seats aren't any smaller or less comfortable than any other airline.>>

Funny, Aeroflot passengers used to say that very same thing, except they sat down and had vodka. Same concept though.

<<besides, SWA was the only one with juevos big enough to start making the wide-a$$es buy two seats!>>

Apparently, that is indeed a huge problem down there in Baja Oklahoma. It was probably a good idea.

<<I'm a Texan who'd work for SWA any day.>>

I mess with Texas.

 

[qxeplt]

Let Me Just Say...

For crying out loud, you guys are worried about the paint scheme...Give me a break. When you're sitting in the cockpit looking out it really doesn't matter what color it is.

All of you would take a SWA job offer in a heart beat if given the chance.

 

[Vik]

The color scheme causes violent and often painful bowel movements.