Why do some of you hate Southwest?

[Rook]

Then Pass me The Kaopectate. I have to agree with qxepilot. I'd fly SWA. Their pilots all seem happy. Sure beats listening to bit*hing and moaning all the time. (Unless it's coming from my room...nudge nudge,wink wink, say no more say no more)

Rook
600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[CatYaaak]

But an ATP isn't required by the government to act as SIC, right? So by your argument - an airline should never require an ATP unless they plan on hiring you directly into the left seat. Now you had your ATP paid for by your employer, which is uber-cool - but is that the norm? <---- this isn't a rhetorical question...I don't know...

Airlines hire with the expectation that the person in question will upgrade and oneday be a Captain. The ATP certificate is the real measure of what will be required for that position, because it sets the standard as far as experience, overall knowledge, and perfomance are concerned, not just system knowledge and stick-handling. This standard doesn't vary, no matter what aircraft you are flying or which seat you are flying from. A non-type rated SIC who holds an ATP still has to demonstrate flying proficiency to ATP standards, same as the Captain, even if that aircraft requires a type-rating to act as PIC.

On the other hand, anyone can bebop out there and get a type-rating added to a private pilot certificate, but all it proves is that they can fly to private pilot standards in something that might happen to be a jet or large aircraft, and nothing more.

So you are a 737 employer and two guys show up to apply for one job. Upgrade to Captain is estimated to be 18 months. They have equal time but neither have any real 737 experience. One of them has an ATP with 3 type ratings. The other has only a Comm/instrument with a 737 type he got during a two week course, demonstrating Comm. Instrument proficiency.

So who would you hire? Someone who simply needs to tag on another type rating to his ATP by learning a new aircraft while maintaining the same level of performance, or someone who must aquire a higher certificate by demonstrating a higher level of performance and knowledge through practical, written, and oral tests than they have had to in the past? In the meantime, as SIC the ATP will still be expected to fly to ATP standards. When upgrade time comes, the ATP will simply do what he's done before, but in a different aircraft. For the non-ATP, even with his type-rating, his check ride will be a much greater hurdle.

As far as my employer paying for my ATP, yes it is the norm in the corporate world, where I got most of my experience. It normally comes through the normal progression of training and because most corporate operators have full-service contracts at one of the training companies, you simply set it up during one of your twice-yearly training events. You of course take the written exam on your own.

Also, to make the point about a type being required at SW contrasted with corporate flight departments. Most will type you fairly quickly after being hired so they have two type-rated pilots up front at all times. There are also a few of them who DO require a type rating to get hired, but WITH experience in type to go along with it. I've never seen an ad for a job that reads something like:

"Gulfstream pilot needed. Requirements: G-lV type rating. Zero time-in-type."

I mean, that would be as senseless as SWA's, which is why you never see it.

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: Let Me Just Say...

<<All of you would take a SWA job offer in a heart beat if given the chance>>

You just keep on a-thinkin' that if it makes you happy. Oh wait, that's the Puppetmaster's talking.

 

[RedBelly]

Here is a quiz.... I had job offers from SWA, Delta, & United at roughly the same time. No matter which one I picked, I would still be employed. I make more money at the airline I picked than I would at the other two.... which one did I go to?

 

[Timebuilder]

One of them has an ATP with 3 type ratings. The other has only a Comm/instrument with a 737 type he got during a two week course, demonstrating Comm. Instrument proficiency.

Actually, the type rated pilot flew according to ATP standards. With a written test in hand and an oral exam, a second 8710 can yield a type rating and an ATP.

In the past ten months, I was passed over for two jobs by people who have no currency in the Lear, but were hired because they had the type, and I did not.

I'm going to fix that, and do the ATP at the same time. I'm struck by the similarity to Southwest's type requirement. I would still undergo the employer's individual training, but I wouldn't get the job without the type. Would a corporate employer pay for my type?

Sure. IF, and only if, I could be hired without it. From what I have seen, the decent (well paying) Lear jobs are going to typed pilots.

For millenia, employers have been setting the terms of employment. It would be great if this were different.

 

[enigma]

For the original questioner: We all love to hate each other. We come up with names like, HerbTurds, the Borg, the SkyNazis, doublebreasted di-kheads, etc., etc.,etc. But I think that these boards tend to attract those at the poles, leaving you unexposed to the middle. I don't see that much hatred for SWA. Human nature being what it is, most of us root against the favorite and right now SWA is the favorite. If you want to see real hatred, just search this forum for comments made two years ago when UAL was the favorite.

To those who blame SWA and the other LCC's for todays deteriorating market. You need to get a better understanding of market forces. The LCC's are not to blame, they are only responding to a market demand. If you want to blame someone, blame Ted Kennedy and Sen. Cannon for deregulating the business. Or blame the customer who decides not to pay $2000 to fly from NY to LA. SWA has not stolen your jobs, the pax abandoned you and your world is shrinking. That's just part of life, either go with it, or get left behind. If you could outlaw the SWA business model, it still wouldn't save your oldstyle mainline jobs because the market will no longer support those jobs. Period.

Someone posted early in this string that SWA was not built on the business traveler. You are wrong. SWA was originated because there was no way for a businessman to get from Houston to Dallas to San Antonio in one day. In the regulated days, a businessman spent his time flying to cities that the government wanted served, instead of flying to cities that he had business in. SWA served that market. It was only when SWA ventured into the FL market that they intentionally went after the leisure traveler. Everything else was meant to tie together centers of business and commerce.

regards,
8N

BTW, I have a 737 type and no time in the airplane. It didn't get me a job at SWA, but it did help me get a DC9 job. It proved that I could succeed in a high stakes training environment.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

I think you're either the SW type or you are not. If you enjoy the "thrill" of working like a dog for 4-6 legs a day with quick turns, have no desire to fly international or bigger equipment, then SW is the place for you. (No insults intended here -- honest.) I fly with many F/O's at my carrier who don't want to fly a six-hour leg from NY-LA or over the pond because they think it would be "boring."

To each his own.

As far as the type requirement. It proves both "loyalty" to SW and it reduces training costs. Plain and simple. I would never consider gambling with $10,000 and 3 weeks of my life for a shot at an interview at a company I have no real desire to work for.

 

[Brett Hull]

Looks like SW figured out how to suck the last drop of fun out of flying the others airlines hadn't yet.

Cat Yaaak, weren't you the one b!tchin earlier about not wanting to fly more than 3 legs a day? Some of us may want to do more than babysit an autopilot for 2 legs and 1 landing/day(zzzzzz...). Now THAT'S not fun! A trained monkey comes to mind.

Don't some airlines have a max amount of legs they can fly per day in their contract?

 

[pilotyip]

737 Type

The 737 type may have come about in the early days of operation. Where if a pilot has a 73 type he can take his PIC PC with a PPE, this guy can not give type ratings and is a fairly easy position to get from FAA. If the the pilot does not have a type then the ride must be given by a DPE, this guy can give types and the FAA does normally not give this to smaller airlines. i.e. SWA in the 70's. In the case where you can not give your type ratings in house, you have to schedule your rides with the FAA, and they are not always available on your schedule. I know this can be a scheduling challenge for an airline. This could be the reason SWA likes the type, because of the way they started. I sure they also get to do some type of reduced training due to the qualification.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Reply to Yaaak:

The subject at hand is piloting jobs, not management-puke jobs in "any other industry". But for the sake of debate, I'll play along for moment and live in an imaginary dreamworld somewhere in Texas where you can indeed compare apples (piloting jobs) to oranges (management jobs); <ahem> Why yes TXCAP, a college degree is needed to be competitive to be hired. That's why I have one, and in aviation no less.

My point is that lots of people on this board think aviation should be considered apart from any other business. It is not, and I figured that thinking about it another way would help you see the light, as it were.

Now, using your own comparison, this college degree is all I should need to join the SW cult. If not, why can you, for the sake of allegory, equate apples to oranges, but I can't conversly equate oranges to apples?

Unfortunately this isn't what I said. In another industry, to be competitive for a job, I have to have already gone out and done a lot of work on my own. I do not expect my employer to pick me and then give me ALL OF MY TRAINING FROM DAY ONE. In other words, I have to show up with something in my hand already. More on this below...

Actually, it's quite common for a company in the private sector to pay for higher education classes and degrees for their employees if that education is directly related to their job and improves their skills, moving them up the ladder. I'd say training a pilot in the type of aircraft (a 737 for instance) they will be flying on the job qualifies in this regard.

The 737 type may indeed fall into this category, but SWA holds themselves to a higher standard. This would be similar to a law firm saying "you must have already passed the bar exam before being eligible to work for us". Some require it and some don't.

I see we are still in that imaginary world, but this time it's one where the FAA doesn't exist or mandate that we have a pilot's license to fly, even in non-commercial pursuits. To connect that to your flawed apples-to-oranges argument, now you add an additional false premise; that the aforementioned "need" for a college degree to be considered competitive as "a manager in some other industry" somehow equates to a governmental mandate, just as a pilots license is (or are they issuing managers lisences now?). So now, not only does your argument compare apples to oranges, it also straddles the the fence between the physical and metaphysical worlds. Bravo! I'm very impressed by the mental somersaults. Let's not confuse them with logic, however.

Someone has already pointed out the flaw in this argument. The government does not require and ATP or a Type Rating to be SIC. Your argument is now teetering.

"Infinitely regressive"....Wow, such big words. And from a Texan? Unbelievable. I guess someone turned off "Walker" today and picked up a dictionary!

Walker was kind of a dumb show - I never watched it. What I mean to say is that if you contend that a company should give you all of your training beyond what the government requires - then all you should have to do is show up with a multi commcercial ticket.

This, in sum, is your position:

1) An airline should have to provide all of these things to its employees:
1) a college degree
2) a type rating
3) an ATP
4) all of the required hours of flight experience

This is what I mean to say by infinitely regressive.

The whole fractional industry proves you wrong. They make money whether the airplane is flying or sitting. In fact, they make more if it sits. Now that all the airlines are adopting SW's "pax are cattle, pilots are chattel" model, no doubt business travelers will continue to flee like they are now from the "airline experience" as if it were the plague, and take their money with them. Ahh! Just imagine, soon we can all enjoy being relegated to living in the 8-turns-a-day-bring-on-the-flip-flop-crowd Hell ushered in by SW.....and pay for the hoop we have to jump through just to interview! WhoooPeeeee! Gee, where do I sign up?

1) Fractionals are about selling ariplanes, airlines are about transporting people - you are mixing apples and oranges (ironic isn't it?).
2) You have locked yourself into a business model or mindset that requires business travelers to be profitable. If SWA can be profitable without them and this niche needs to be filled, someone else will create a business model to satisfy them. The point is, SWA is answering the market while you seems to be blind to it - one segment of your passengers does not make up the whole marketplace! Your statement above shows that, I think.

Yaaak, my first point is that pilots tend to be insular in considering their industry. When you think in bigger terms, any other job in the rest of the known universe rewards you for showing up more prepared than the next guy. Why should this be any different???

The other point is that you have to answer the market and SWA is doing that while others are trailing. If you have a better model, go for it. Competition only make the marketplace better.

 

[Please Hire Me]

I hope you are taking all of this in. The vast majority of opinions you will hear in aviation are based on the perspective of the individual.

I have been. I have my opinions already on the matter, but before I spout my mouth off, I like to understand where everyone is coming from.

 

[mar]

A short diversion

Hey Jetsnake--Are you talking to me? Cuz I don't know what the bejezzus you're talking about.

What have I done with my military benefits? Huh?

Dude, ah 'scuse me, Sir, I'm civvie thanks anyway.

And PFT? Wha'the, huh? I've always been critical of PFT.

Glad you made it through UPT--I always hated checklists.

And finally, people like me and the Clintons with our "forecasts".

WTFO!?!

Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else or have I just entirely missed your fragile little point?

 

[patq1]

...I know that MY boss isn't paying for my ATP...

Timebuilder,

Isn't your company eventually going to pay for you to get typed so they can upgrade you when you get enough experience? Since it's the same ride just have them give you an ATP at the same time. It doesn't cost anything extra. It worked for me.

pat

 

[Timebuilder]

You're right. The key word is "eventually".

 

[FearlessFreep]

It all depends on just what is going on in the industry at the time.

The overwhelming sentiment at this point in time is that WN is great, and all the other airlines are just balancing on the edge of the toilet. Obviously this is not that case. Prior to 9/11 and the economic downturn THE hot topic on this board was how great DAL, CAL, NWA, UAL, AA was and no one was very interested in pursuing employment at SWA or Airtran or any of the other LCC's as they were construed as working people very hard and paying them very little when compared to the former group. In some cases WN was thought as a stepping stone to get on with the Majors.

Now the shoe is on the other foot. The LCC's are the only game in town and people are scrambling to get on with them, extolling their attributes in some feigned effort to justify their actions and or desires.

I certainly do not wish to cast aspersions against anyone here, but if you could have seen the evolution of this board over an extended period you would have been able to witness this phenomena for yourself.

At this point in time your current employer is the best one, if they keep sending you a check. When things loosen up and change you will again see a change in the rhetoric of just what is the best carrier to work for.

Oh, we didn't even get into the pax vs. freight debate. I believe there is a lengthy thread on the interview board on that issue("Fedex vs SWA"). I haven't even bothered to open that one up.

Good Luck To All!

 

[Skank]

Anyone that says they wouldn't work for SWA is smoking crack (except for all you guys and gals with better jobs, of course). But if you are an aspiring airline dude, you would be nuts to rule out the mighty LUV machine.

 

[skydash]

Southwest

The truth has finally been revealed!!Southwest is an awful,terrible place to work. I've only been there for 17 months....and....I've got 9 days off over Thanksgiving....when I do have to drag myself back to work....I'll have to fly a ratty old 737-700 to Reno....and spend the night in that noisy old Hilton,with 3 cute FA's.....then over the next 2 days, I'll have to go to other terrible places..... and I have to read these depressing newspaper articles reporting on our "small" profits...... then I'll only have 6 days off before I have to do the whole thing again!! No matter what I do,I just can't seem to get this smile of my face........