Why do some of you hate Southwest?

[Please Hire Me]

Forgive my youth and inexperience, but why do some people here hate SWA? Until I came to this board, I've heard nothing but praise for them. So what gives?

 

[starvingcfi]

k-mart airlines. the wave of the future.

 

[Please Hire Me]

and..........................?

 

[Andy Neill]

What follows is more of what I PERCEIVE others' feeling to be rather than my own.

Southwest caters to the lower spectrum of the air travel market. They are not necessarily tring to capture the business market but welcome any business travelers they might have. As a result, they use a business model that is significantly different in terms of ammenities offered. These would include inflight entertainment, meals, assigned seating, etc.

To make this model work, Southwest must use a different operational and compensation structure from the predominant major carriers. Included in this structure is more legs in a day's schedule with shorter turn around time. To make this work, air crews must work as a team to make magic happen on most stops during the day to get the aircraft back in the air and making money. Compensation schemes put more emphasis on profit sharing and growth rather than on the lucrative pay schedules offered by their major competitors.

With that background, I believe those that hate Southwest do so for these reasons:
- Southwest pilots (and perhaps other labor groups) are seen as holding back the compensation progress.
- Because of this perception, they are seen as undercutting costs at the expense of professional progress in pay.
- Acceptance of operational necessities on helping the quick turn of the aircraft and of schedules with short ground turns and high leg count days is seen as regressional in the work rules trend.
- Perhaps part of the animosity stems from Southwest pilots being outside the ALPA fold.

If these were not enough to raise the ire of some, Southwest remains one of the nations few profitable airlines when more traditional carriers are bleeding money to the tune of millions a day and have thousands of their flight crews on furlough with their aircraft parked in the desert. None are as irritating to those that fail as those that succeed.

Now for my own feelings, I have a great deal of respect for what Southwest has done in meeting the needs of a market while working together as a team to achieve success. I think it is largely what the folks at SkyWest try to do. My admiration for Herb and company grew as I read the obstacles they had to clear just to get started (see Crash Landing for more details.

 

[AOPAPILOT]

Great post there Andy. My exact thinking and if you take a poll of readers on this web site, those who are down on SWA are either out of a flying seat or are stuck still waiting. The others are the ones who feel helpless looking at the profits that SAS is making while the rest are in the red.

 

[ilinipilot]

Hello,
I have flown Southwest before and I am not the biggest fan, but I love the prices. I think what turns people off and me included sometimes is the waiting game you have to play. For example: you have to wait to check in a bag, wait to get a boarding card, and then people start waiting 30 minutes prior to take-off in the lines that correspond to your boarding number.

I am used to the traditional mold where I am assiged a seat and i prefer that bc i usually want the window. and i like the idea of being able to walk around and read etc before I have to board the plane.

Another thing that turns some people off is that if you want a good seat i.e. close to the front, window, aisle, etc you have to get there early and certain travelers would rather show up 30 minutes prior to t/o and walk right on.

that is my opinoin and interpretation. I think i am like a large percentage of the population, and these things are not an absolute bar to my flying Southwest because if their fare is very cheap I will fly them. if their fare is close I will not.

I think the reason they are doing so well is they have a real handle on their price model, and have an excellent pulse on what customers want. Price Price Price

thanks for reading and I would love to hear some responses
D

PS I would fly for them in a second too, beggars can't be chosers!!

 

[TXCAP4228]

Success?

These numbers are from each company's 10Q filing for the 2002 third quarter.

LUV - Net profit after tax: 74.88 MM
DAL - Net loss after tax: (326) MM
AMR - Net loss after tax: (924) MM
UAL - Net loss after tax (889) MM

If I worked for DAL, AMR, or UAL, I would not like Southwest much either. SW is kicking their a$$es.

People can complain about them all they want, but their customers are happy, their stockholders are happy, and their employees are happy (not to mention still employed).

 

[Timebuilder]

I sometimes raise the ire of some on this board when I bring my experience as a corporate employee and airline passenger to bear on posts like this one, but I'll take that risk.....

Twenty years ago, we had a robust group of major airlines with many happy labor groups. Although profit margins were slim, and some carriers regretably went out of existance, we had a stable system of cash flow and predictable expenses. Many things have happened to change that balance, and long before those changes, Herb Kelleher saw an opportunity for his business model that was mentioned above. Aside from holding back progress in the area of compensation and a regression in work rules, many pilots, furloughed pilots in particular, see the very success as a threat to their future lifestyle. This success suggests that it is likely that other carriers can operate outside the union umbrella, and that pilots' top compensation levels are higher than they need to be. Literally, the Southwest passenger used to fly on other airlines. This isn't good news for many professional airline pilots, the vast majority of whom work for a carrier that is in the "red", and have seen their flying steadily reduced by fractional ownership programs, regional jets, and wary travellers. Some pilots also see the need for a type rating upon hiring at Southwest to be a form of PFT, or Pay For Training, a very sore subject for most pilots.

I hope that I have given you some food for thought as you enter aviation. If you are looking at the house in the upscale neighborhood where the Delta captain has just had his retirement party, and thinking that this will be you in twenty or thirty years, I'd say the forces of the marketplace are against you. Sure, a number of pilots will achieve that lifestyle, but that number will certainly get smaller, not larger.

So, welcome to aviation. I hope you are here because you love to fly, because that is likely the only thing that you can count on.

For many right now, even that is on hold.

 

[Draginass]

News flash . . . . commercial aviation isn't about love of flying. This may come as a shock to some. . . but it's about MONEY. The airline CEOs don't give a hoot about "flying." They care about the MONEY. For someone that has other skills in addition to piloting, commercial flying isn't worth the family separation, labor/company aggrevation, etc. unless it is very well compensated.

 

[CatYaaak]

A few reasons I think.

1) The rah-rah fervor of their employees and the silly smiles wear thin after awhile. You begin to wonder; "Is SW an airline, or a cult?".

2) Since we all love airplanes, and like to look at them, we think it a crying shame that SW chose to "uglify" their 73s with a paint scheme and colors that conjures up the image of a scurrying cockroach. The next time you see one taxiing by at 60 knots, you'll see what I mean.

3) Who wants to fly a 73 the rest of their life anyway? Especially ones that look like that?

4) The requirement that you be 73-typed w/o needing real 73 experience (in other words, ink still wet) for an interview/job is, quite frankly, bush league. Personally, I think ponying up the cash to buy a type-rating just for the mere chance to work there is some kind of loyalty-test rite devised by their management to see if you will be one of the Faithful.

5) They hail from Texas. And if that weren't enough, they are just down the road from......Waco. Coincidence? You decide.

6) 20 minute turns suck, and flying more than 3 legs a day blows. Now, we all know that no normal person still in posession of Free Will would be happy doing this, but SW pilots seem willing to work like dogs and yet keep smiling . How can this be? The only possible answer is that there is an unseen being, a Puppetmaster if you will, located deep within the bowels of SW's Texas headquarters pulling strings connected to the psyche of each pilot in order to keep them in the fold and working as a seemingly-happy part of the collective hive. No doubt this same Being (appearing in human form) also conveniently "teaches" the new-hire Indoctrination classes.

Anyway, those could be some of the reasons.

CatYaaak <---- sitting on reserve again....killin' time.

 

[Dep676]

K-Mart airlines. What an idiot. Well the "K-Mart airlines" are still flying and hiring all the superior airlines are furloughing and close to closing down. They could learn some lessons from the "K-Mart airlines".

 

[gundriver]

CatYaaak is a funny dude!!

 

[na265]

As a former SWA FA, and now a current Corp Pilot I have many thoughts on why some don't like SWA. SWA has been successful with their business model to the point of changing the airline industry. Some see this as cheapening the profession. What SWA EXPECTS from their employees is to do the best job they can do, to know that all employees count on each other to get a pay check, and that we all make a difference. And, the cool part is to have fun while you work, take your job seriously but not yourself.
As far as the Pax complaints about the boarding process, lack of assigned seats etc, they have been the same for years. What it comes down to is that people do have a say in how SWA works. It is called their dollars. If the dollars started to go away, SWA would change the way they do business.
Yes, I would like to eventually be an SWA pilot. The people are great to work for, I know many very cool people there and I like the culture. It is not for everyone. However, if you want to work at an airline that doesn't start putting employees on the streets when the going gets tough, an airline that is successful and a fun place to work with good morale, then SWA IS THE PLACE TO BE!

 

[DIRT]

Southwest

The reason for all the bad press Southwest gets on this board is because most of the people that follow this board are either airline pilots or aspiring airline pilots, that being said guys see their potential 200k a year 777 job swirling the drain because of low cost carriers like Southwest. Maybe the low cost / no frills carriers lack in creature comforts but the major airlines.... Delta / United etc. are all cutting corners in the way of service yet their fares are still much more expensive. If you want to see what airline travel would be like without low cost carriers check out the cost of a ticket from say ATL - MYR where Delta competes with Air Tran and then check out an almost identical flight from ATL - CHS where DL does not compete.

 

[Timebuilder]

Draginass made an interesting observation. I think it is an important one.

News flash . . . . commercial aviation isn't about love of flying. This may come as a shock to some. . . but it's about MONEY. The airline CEOs don't give a hoot about "flying." They care about the MONEY. For someone that has other skills in addition to piloting, commercial flying isn't worth the family separation, labor/company aggrevation, etc. unless it is very well compensated.

Since the operators don't give a tinker's d$#n about flying, you will need to love flying to be happy in aviation in the future. If it is the lifestyle you seek, young private pilot candidate, you are better off in any of a number of fields. The future pay, unless you love your job, probably won't make up for the problems.

 

[Jetsnake]

k-mart airlines. the wave of the future.

This has to be the Superior Intellect comment
of the last 30 years of aviation.
Why would one hate SWA, not only do they
provide a good service at a price that you can't deny.
The people that work there not only treat you good;
there happy camper's.

They should be, only in the black for 2 years of since
there inception. And that coming in there first 2 years
of survivability. And with what happened on 9/11.
SWA never even questioned whether they would seek
federal help in there survival as an airline.

They were the first to tell the world, not even a chance.
They have not only broken ground with the travel industry.
They have written the book on it. Granted, you can't go
from East coast to West coast without a few stops.
But name one carrier that does just that right now
and is still making money; without attempting to survive
off the taxpayer.

UAL won't, not without TAXPAYER money.

You sound like my last professor in college 18 years ago
when I turned in a paper for Economics. I suggested
that the internet would be the newest and greatest
thing we have, with message boards and direct imagages
as we have now. I received a D+ on that theory.

I still send him my statement's from my profit every year
as an internet provider...

www.TheHun.net

Jetsnake

 

[TXCAP4228]

Response to Cat Yaaak

1, 2, 3 & 5 don't bear responding to...

4) The requirement that you be 73-typed w/o needing real 73 experience (in other words, ink still wet) for an interview/job is, quite frankly, bush league. Personally, I think ponying up the cash to buy a type-rating just for the mere chance to work there is some kind of loyalty-test rite devised by their management to see if you will be one of the Faithful.

Yaaak, lets take a basic management job in any other industry - a college degree is an entrance requirement just to be competitive for that position, right? Nobody would expect a perspective employer to pay for that would they? You have to have a pilots license in addition to the type rating don't you? Why don't you insist that your airline of choice pay for that? What about your ATP? What about your commercial multi engine? Sorry pal, your position is infinitely regressive. Find a better argument.

6) 20 minute turns suck, and flying more than 3 legs a day blows. Now, we all know that no normal person still in posession of Free Will would be happy doing this, but SW pilots seem willing to work like dogs and yet keep smiling . How can this be? The only possible answer is that there is an unseen being, a Puppetmaster if you will, located deep within the bowels of SW's Texas headquarters pulling strings connected to the psyche of each pilot in order to keep them in the fold and working as a seemingly-happy part of the collective hive. No doubt this same Being (appearing in human form) also conveniently "teaches" the new-hire Indoctrination classes.

1) Hmmm.... maybe the employees at SWA are still smiling because they all still have jobs and their retirement plans (and stock options) are still worth something.

2) As far as quick turns... hmmm, it doesn't take an MBA to figure out that airplanes on the ground make $0.00 while airplanes that are flying have the chance to make money.

Then again, maybe this really is rocket science and only Texans are able to understand it...


Hey there Dep676 - how's the new job?

 

[DoinTime]

I still send him my statement's from my profit every year
as an internet provider...

www.TheHun.net

Wow....your the one that puts that site on? I've been a big fan for years. Could you cut down the number of links to porkers getting naked? Every once in a awhile one of those links slips past my fat filter and YEOOWWW....I have to shut the computer down for a few days.

 

[Jetsnake]

I'm glad you like the site,
If you have problems with Pop Up's
I'll bet it's not with my site.

However, if this continue's.
Send me a PM or let me know via
our link. We don't like Pop Up's and
eliminate them period.

If you have problems with your hard drive
and getting rid of things. I'll help you
with process to rid you of such
problems. I'll forward you with many
anti-virus programs that will work
and hardly take any hard drive
space from you...

Another trick that many pilot's not are
aware of, is this, If you have Window's
98 or greater. Go to your Maint. Wizard
Program. Clean up all the garbage on
your hard drive.

If you don't know how to do this, send
a PM, I'll tell you how.

The another key, if you don't like it, don't
go there.
Jetsnake

 

[Vardog]

I think SWA is great

Any company that profits from doing business is successful at 2 main things.

The first of which is identifying a market. They have done a great job of doing this.
The second is fulfilling the needs of that market. They have done a great job of this also.


The particulars of why pilots like or don't like SWA are probably as varied as the number of pilots asked. However, in any endeavor that we choose to undertake - those two main things will have to be fulfilled for us to succeed, so it is wise to not like or dislike them but learn from them