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why do pilots need more money
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rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
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rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
- Joined
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- Posts
- 382
Re: why ask why?
No....that was not my intent here...just a legit question that I could not give a good answer....
so are pilots more valuable than say a mechanic or a ramp agent who has responsibility as well...
Really I am not trying to upset anyone here I am just asking the question (during contract time) that some employees are asking and I am trying to defend the flight crews...
climbhappy said:
No....that was not my intent here...just a legit question that I could not give a good answer....
so are pilots more valuable than say a mechanic or a ramp agent who has responsibility as well...
Really I am not trying to upset anyone here I am just asking the question (during contract time) that some employees are asking and I am trying to defend the flight crews...
rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
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rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
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- Posts
- 382
Re: Re: why do pilots need more money
I can understand that but doesn't everybody...why do pilots need to be paid more...
A coworker told me (after trying to defend the superbowl picket) that pilots "must mismanage their money...I am making it on less why can't they..."
I really am trying to understand and defend crews here...(lord knows I work in a crew neutral department) so I need some reasons crews should be payed more vs. say mechanics or rampers or non-management employees
80drvr said:
I can understand that but doesn't everybody...why do pilots need to be paid more...
A coworker told me (after trying to defend the superbowl picket) that pilots "must mismanage their money...I am making it on less why can't they..."
I really am trying to understand and defend crews here...(lord knows I work in a crew neutral department) so I need some reasons crews should be payed more vs. say mechanics or rampers or non-management employees
Re: Re: Re: why do pilots need more mone
When an engine catches fire at V1 at MGTOW in bad weather, the mechanics, rampers, and other employees aren't the ones that have to get the airplane and a bunch of people safely back on the ground. That responsibility rests solely with the flight crew.
Everyone has some sort of responsibility at their job, but pilots have a much different kind of responsibility than most people: people's lives. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only reason that needs to be given to justify high wages for pilots.
rumorhasit said:
When an engine catches fire at V1 at MGTOW in bad weather, the mechanics, rampers, and other employees aren't the ones that have to get the airplane and a bunch of people safely back on the ground. That responsibility rests solely with the flight crew.
Everyone has some sort of responsibility at their job, but pilots have a much different kind of responsibility than most people: people's lives. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only reason that needs to be given to justify high wages for pilots.
Rumor:
You are paid as a function of both the revenue that you generate and by what you can negotiate. The easier you are to replace from both a practical and cost perspective, the less negotiating power that you have. If a pilot group could be staffed with high school graduates willing to work for minimum wage, then they would be. If you are dissatisfied with what you are being paid relative to the pilots at your airline, then you need to find a job that gives you the negotiating power that you need. This generally requires additional education and / or specialized training, which is what pilots have. Get it and then you too can be on the defend side of a thread like this someday.
You are paid as a function of both the revenue that you generate and by what you can negotiate. The easier you are to replace from both a practical and cost perspective, the less negotiating power that you have. If a pilot group could be staffed with high school graduates willing to work for minimum wage, then they would be. If you are dissatisfied with what you are being paid relative to the pilots at your airline, then you need to find a job that gives you the negotiating power that you need. This generally requires additional education and / or specialized training, which is what pilots have. Get it and then you too can be on the defend side of a thread like this someday.
rumorhasit
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Mugs said:
what a bunch of brown stuff....I make about what the pilots do in my airline...thank you very much and I am very skilled and educated...I bet you would not last one day in my job!!!! you dont like your pay then do something else beside b!tch about your life and your pay....I have been on the defend side of every thread I have posted on...do the research then get back to me!!!!
Sing it, from the Full Monty-
"You can leave your hat on..."
Seriously, 10 years of work for starting regional pay of 17 grand? That is so pathetic. With the lives of so many people in your hands?
Just because you carry 50 people each of 6 legs, is that worth less than the pilot who flies 300 people for one? It's the same **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** job!
Away from home maybe 2/3 of the month? Having to relocate sometimes SEVERAL times for the same company? Sitting by the phone on reseve like a whore? You have to respect what these professionals go through to get where they are. I would imagine if the passengers knew what some of these guys get paid they would throw the pilot a few extra bucks as they boarded.
Hmm good idea, how about a tip jar???
"You can leave your hat on..."
Seriously, 10 years of work for starting regional pay of 17 grand? That is so pathetic. With the lives of so many people in your hands?
Just because you carry 50 people each of 6 legs, is that worth less than the pilot who flies 300 people for one? It's the same **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** job!
Away from home maybe 2/3 of the month? Having to relocate sometimes SEVERAL times for the same company? Sitting by the phone on reseve like a whore? You have to respect what these professionals go through to get where they are. I would imagine if the passengers knew what some of these guys get paid they would throw the pilot a few extra bucks as they boarded.
Hmm good idea, how about a tip jar???
Taking a response to your question a bit personally aren't we? You asked for a response to questions about pilot compensation relative to other positions at an airline, and I gave you one. If you are skilled and educated with a job that I couldn't hack for a day, then I guess you have nothing to worry about. Feel better now?
It is an interesting question. And one that deserves a considered answer.
Normally, I am just a lurker on this forum, buy this is an issue close to the heart. So please do not take offense as a simple Instructor Pilot throws a response out to this question.
First of all, let me confess that I am a career changer. One who has spent over 13 years in Corporate America prior to taking the big leap into full time aviation. I worked for a company that was in the fortune 20 for 11 years and during that time I diligently climbed the ladder presented to me upon my being hired. I began flying even before beginning my corporate work just after finishing college and have been a pilot and aircraft owner since 86.
Let me further premise that I will probably gather (some) cheers from the Regional pilots of the world, and many jeers from the mega carrier pilots. And the reason for my foresight is that I am of the sincere belief that entry level pilots are paid at appallingly low rates, and that (some) main line pilots are paid at appallingly high rates.
And there lies the rub! Far too many willing entry level guys who are accepting of (really now) slave wages to operate in a small jet provider environment for way below what they deserve (compared to their education and experience). All for the carrot of that (perhaps... ...hopefully) future (high paying) mainline gig.
When I was hiring the future executives of Corporate America based on education and experience, they were worth (at a minimum) a salary in the 30K's in the late 1980's/early 1990's. And much like the airline industry, they were predominantly (although not all) college educated with a 4 year degree. I know myself that in 1987 when I was hired as a young inexperience punk, with only a 4 year degree to demonstrate my future potential, I was worth $22,300 beginning salary and improved up to $30K by the end of my first year. I left the industry 11 years later at the 6-figure mark.
So what do we have now in the aviation industry some 17 years later? Companies whom all desire (but may not demand) college educated employees with bachelor degrees and all the appropriate pilot certificates. Now take that degree and add to it the expense and effort in time and money to gain the pilot certificates required (such as PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL/CFI/CFII/MEI) required to build the 1,500+ hours of competitive time most "decent" airlines require and what is that cost to an individual? I put forth that this experience is at least equivalent to an advanced degree such as a Masters.
So what is a (predonimantly) college educated individual with advanced degrees worth nowadays in the corporate world? I'll guaran-dam-tee you more than $19 bucks an hours! Especially hauling 19 to 70 lives around from base to base on a daily basis!
In my honest opinion, it is obscene what we as a pilot group allow the airlines to get away with as far as compensation. Some on this tread compared us to MD's and that is a fair comparison. Much like MD's, we hold people’s lives in our hands on a daily basis. Much like MD's we are "professionals." But unlike MD's, when we make errors, not only one life is in jeopardy, but MANY lives are in jeopardy. Unlike MD's, we must pass a physical every 6 months or someone may say, "you cannot do this job anymore." Unlike MD's, we must pass a recurrent exam arey 6 months ore forego our livelyhood for other pursuits. Ever here of a MD leaving the industry because of hypertension or color blindness?
So what is going on? Why are so many willing to accept such wages when in the "real" world the same education and experience are valued at such a higher wage level? I can only guess that is has something to do with the advertised pay of the "top dogs" with the mega-carriers earning $200,000 to $300,000 a year. Is it possible to earn so much? Absolutely! But with a caveat. And that is "for some." I, for one, as a career changer and a bit further down my potential career years have no illusions of being that senior captain flying to Hong Kong once or twice a month with the rest of my time off at home. I just don't have the luxury of time before reaching that magical age 60 prior to attaining such a position.
Do I think that they (senion mega-carrier pilots) are worth the money they earn? I just don't know. But I'm leaning in the direction of no. Does a senior captain of a mega carrier airline hold the same value as a corporate CEO? I don't know. But it appears that they are being compensated "similarly." Not exactly, but similarly. The President of the United States receives $400,000 annually for his efforts. Are mega carrier pilots worth the percentage equivalent that the President earns? Perhaps. Or perhaps not. I'll leave that for discussion.
But here in lies the next rub. I sincerely believe that the flying public thinks that everyone is earning this type of compensation. And therefor, has no sympathy for the striking small jet provider pilot seeking to increase his lot in life. Most folks on this forum appreciate the fact that if asked, the vast majority of passengers carried would be appalled to discover what the right seat pilot is earning on a day-to-day basis to deliver them safely to their destinations.
So where does this lead me? Well, only one opinion, but I believe that it is the ying and the yang that will haunt us for years. The highs and the lows. The entry-level pilot who loves aviation so much they'd do it for free. And the airlines who take advantage of such desires. The lure of the main line salary, which makes us weak and accepting of salaries 20 years behind the times in comparison to our education and experience to "get into the game."
As I said in the beginning, this is just one humble pilot’s opinion. Please do not take offense from whichever end of the spectrum you may come at this. I just believe that it is the entry-level pilots who bear the brunt of the disparages of this industry.
Flame away!
Normally, I am just a lurker on this forum, buy this is an issue close to the heart. So please do not take offense as a simple Instructor Pilot throws a response out to this question.
First of all, let me confess that I am a career changer. One who has spent over 13 years in Corporate America prior to taking the big leap into full time aviation. I worked for a company that was in the fortune 20 for 11 years and during that time I diligently climbed the ladder presented to me upon my being hired. I began flying even before beginning my corporate work just after finishing college and have been a pilot and aircraft owner since 86.
Let me further premise that I will probably gather (some) cheers from the Regional pilots of the world, and many jeers from the mega carrier pilots. And the reason for my foresight is that I am of the sincere belief that entry level pilots are paid at appallingly low rates, and that (some) main line pilots are paid at appallingly high rates.
And there lies the rub! Far too many willing entry level guys who are accepting of (really now) slave wages to operate in a small jet provider environment for way below what they deserve (compared to their education and experience). All for the carrot of that (perhaps... ...hopefully) future (high paying) mainline gig.
When I was hiring the future executives of Corporate America based on education and experience, they were worth (at a minimum) a salary in the 30K's in the late 1980's/early 1990's. And much like the airline industry, they were predominantly (although not all) college educated with a 4 year degree. I know myself that in 1987 when I was hired as a young inexperience punk, with only a 4 year degree to demonstrate my future potential, I was worth $22,300 beginning salary and improved up to $30K by the end of my first year. I left the industry 11 years later at the 6-figure mark.
So what do we have now in the aviation industry some 17 years later? Companies whom all desire (but may not demand) college educated employees with bachelor degrees and all the appropriate pilot certificates. Now take that degree and add to it the expense and effort in time and money to gain the pilot certificates required (such as PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL/CFI/CFII/MEI) required to build the 1,500+ hours of competitive time most "decent" airlines require and what is that cost to an individual? I put forth that this experience is at least equivalent to an advanced degree such as a Masters.
So what is a (predonimantly) college educated individual with advanced degrees worth nowadays in the corporate world? I'll guaran-dam-tee you more than $19 bucks an hours! Especially hauling 19 to 70 lives around from base to base on a daily basis!
In my honest opinion, it is obscene what we as a pilot group allow the airlines to get away with as far as compensation. Some on this tread compared us to MD's and that is a fair comparison. Much like MD's, we hold people’s lives in our hands on a daily basis. Much like MD's we are "professionals." But unlike MD's, when we make errors, not only one life is in jeopardy, but MANY lives are in jeopardy. Unlike MD's, we must pass a physical every 6 months or someone may say, "you cannot do this job anymore." Unlike MD's, we must pass a recurrent exam arey 6 months ore forego our livelyhood for other pursuits. Ever here of a MD leaving the industry because of hypertension or color blindness?
So what is going on? Why are so many willing to accept such wages when in the "real" world the same education and experience are valued at such a higher wage level? I can only guess that is has something to do with the advertised pay of the "top dogs" with the mega-carriers earning $200,000 to $300,000 a year. Is it possible to earn so much? Absolutely! But with a caveat. And that is "for some." I, for one, as a career changer and a bit further down my potential career years have no illusions of being that senior captain flying to Hong Kong once or twice a month with the rest of my time off at home. I just don't have the luxury of time before reaching that magical age 60 prior to attaining such a position.
Do I think that they (senion mega-carrier pilots) are worth the money they earn? I just don't know. But I'm leaning in the direction of no. Does a senior captain of a mega carrier airline hold the same value as a corporate CEO? I don't know. But it appears that they are being compensated "similarly." Not exactly, but similarly. The President of the United States receives $400,000 annually for his efforts. Are mega carrier pilots worth the percentage equivalent that the President earns? Perhaps. Or perhaps not. I'll leave that for discussion.
But here in lies the next rub. I sincerely believe that the flying public thinks that everyone is earning this type of compensation. And therefor, has no sympathy for the striking small jet provider pilot seeking to increase his lot in life. Most folks on this forum appreciate the fact that if asked, the vast majority of passengers carried would be appalled to discover what the right seat pilot is earning on a day-to-day basis to deliver them safely to their destinations.
So where does this lead me? Well, only one opinion, but I believe that it is the ying and the yang that will haunt us for years. The highs and the lows. The entry-level pilot who loves aviation so much they'd do it for free. And the airlines who take advantage of such desires. The lure of the main line salary, which makes us weak and accepting of salaries 20 years behind the times in comparison to our education and experience to "get into the game."
As I said in the beginning, this is just one humble pilot’s opinion. Please do not take offense from whichever end of the spectrum you may come at this. I just believe that it is the entry-level pilots who bear the brunt of the disparages of this industry.
Flame away!
starchkr
New Bus driver
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,065
Pilots need more money so they can afford the stupid $4,000 watch like the guy on the general board asking about how to deduct it on his taxes. You make too much if you are buying $4000 watches, no matter who you are. It is a piece of metal that does nothing more than my $40 watch i wear every day.
That said, i do believe entry level airline pilots(first year regionals guys) deserve more than poverty and food stamps.
That said, i do believe entry level airline pilots(first year regionals guys) deserve more than poverty and food stamps.
skootertrash
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 29, 2003
- Posts
- 186
Ximon said:
Flame? Heck no. You've hit the nail right on the head! The problem is that we all suffered under the days of making 13K a year. So now in order to make up for those lean years we want to make a bit more at the top end.
With your experience you should really post more. Your post was inteligent and insightful. And even spelled correctly.(Better than I can do). It is a shame that more pilots do not have such a buisness sense.
Weasel Keeper
Phantom (Falcon) Phixer
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Posts
- 249
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