why always talk about log books

[rv4pilot]

I don’t understand why every thread turns into an argument about logging time. I posted one some time ago about building multi time and the only responses I got were about what was in my logbook. I work for a corporate flight department that operates a king air200 and two large jets, all fly with a crew of two, no I can’t log sic in the king air but acting as sic will lead to the jets. I would encourage low time pilots to get all the experience they can even if it’s not all loggable.

 

[avbug]

Rv4pilot,

One should certainly get all the experience one can get...no question about it. And you're very correct; even if it's not loggable, experience can be valueable.

However the issue regarding logging time is important. The logging of time represents adherence to regulation, and understanding thereof. It's part of what we do. It's also part of what we are judged by in a search for employment.

How one keeps one's logbook reflects who that person is as an initial impression to a potential employer.

Logbook keeping is also a legal requirement, and the logbook is a legal document. It behooves each pilot to understand the regulation, and to maintain his or her logbook neatly, professionally, and in accordance with the regulation and acceptable standards.

I find it difficult to figure out how the logging of flight time can be so frequently misundestood, but it is. It's also one of the most common sources of questions when discussing the regulations...and subject that probably won't see an end soon.

 

[Ralph]

Because nobody can find a job and there is not much else to talk about. If you really want to get things going throw in something like....

Whenever I fly commercial I tell the pilot's "nice landing, but you flared a little high." Then I log that flight as dual given. I used this time along with my time from Gulfstream academy to get a job with freedom airlines. I'm hoping that with the help of the RJDC my job there will be one I can retire at.

 

[Citationkid]

Can't you just log dual in the right seat of a King Air?

 

[prodigal]

Can't you just log dual in the right seat of a King Air?

If by "dual" you mean instruction received, yes, provided the PIC is also an MEI and he signs your logbook accordingly.
If you are an MEI you can also log the time as dual given, provided, again, you sign the other pilots logbook and gave him some kind of lesson. The third scenario for being able to log the time is that you may log PIC for that time during which you were the sole manipulator of the controls, even though you were not the operational PIC, provided that you hold an AMEL certificate.

 

[groundpointsix]

Depends on the situation. If the guy in the left seat is an MEI, then you could log dual recieved if he's willing to sign it as such. If you're in the right seat and have an MEI you could arrange it with the pilot flying that you were PIC and could log the flight as dual given and PIC, but that's not a practical idea. I agree with what was said above-- that sometimes it's just better to learn something than to have something to show for it on paper. Impress an interviewer with your knowledge rather than your numbers, particularly if you're going to have to stretch to show that you really did earn some of that time legitimately.

 

[WrightAvia]

In theory you could send me a check for 5,000 dollars. I could then send you a reciept for 100 hours of block time in a twin. You could then log 100 hours of pic multi in your logbook, keep the reciept as your proof.

It is illegal and you'll get your tickets pulled if you get caught, but It would sure beat the hell out of reading another dumb post by people trying to log something that doesn't matter, like SIC in a duchess.

Splitting multi time seems like it would be just as illegal as logging sic in a single pilot plane.

 

[Ralph]

Well splitting multi-time is not actually illegal. There are legal ways for two pilots to BOTH log PIC time under part 91.

 

[MaxQ]

I thought you could log SIC time in a King Air if it was used to carry passengers under part 135 and it was not equiped with an auto pilot.

I'd assume you would also have to have an 8410 letter stating that you are checked out as SIC in the aircraft.

Is this correct??? Or am I mistaken?

 

[WrightAvia]

Well splitting multi-time is not actually illegal. There are legal ways for two pilots to BOTH log PIC time under part 91.

Yea, I know that, but those guys have to take the low paying 135 jobs with that type of multi time. Both the 135 operator that I first flew for after building my initial multi and the operator at my current 135 job, both pay well and they don't take guys with 1,500 TT and 100 Hours PIC multi as a "safety pilot". Even when hiring was keeping down the amount of resumes we were getting, they wouldn't touch a safety pilot with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Citationkid]

I thought you could log SIC time in a King Air if it was used to carry passengers under part 135 and it was not equiped with an auto pilot.

I'd assume you would also have to have an 8410 letter stating that you are checked out as SIC in the aircraft.

Is this correct??? Or am I mistaken?

Go look under the post Low time SIC on King Airs. Their was a pretty good size fight about that, to tell you the truth I still don't know whether you can or can't, I don't know who is right.

 

[350DRIVER]

Go look under the post Low time SIC on King Airs. Their was a pretty good size fight about that, to tell you the truth I still don't know whether you can or can't, I don't know who is right.

Very easy solution as follows:> Go to your FSDO and ask them for their interpretation and go on it. You ask 5 different inspectors and you will get five different answers. Get a letter and carry it with you for "future" purposes. You can either fly or you can't at this stage of the ball game and no one is going to "not" hire you because you logged SIC time in a King Air. Who the fu$k really cares.... A friend just got hired today for a Lear 60 SIC position and he logged plenty of SIC time while flying a King Air 200 with LJ in LBE. I have many others friends who are now flying 121 who did the same and quite frankly no one really cares. You people make a big deal about something that is not at all. Your logbook is for "YOUR" personal use and record keeping and NO sic time will get you in trouble, worst case scenario is that a inspector may not allow you to count it on a 8710 ( by god, what harsh punishment)........ - nothing more will come about it.


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ps>> I do not have SIC time logged but wanted to add my $02. since I know many people who have and who never ever had one question come up regarding it.

 

[puddlejumper]

Quick Answer

Here's a quick answer to your question. YES. If you are flying an IFR, 135 passenger-carrying flight, the operator is required to have 2 pilots by regulation. At the discretion of the operator, they can apply for and be approved to operate single-pilot with an autopilot. This is an option that can be excercised but does not require the operator to. It's an available option. The required SIC would have to be trained and with the proper 135 and employment documentation to be the SIC. The SIC would have to have completed the requirements of part 61. (3 t/o and landings, CRM, single-engine work...) If you have a turbine powered aircraft with more than 6 pax seats and fly with a required SIC, you've gotta have the CVR.

There are not a lot of part 91 situations which would require an SIC unless the aircraft was certified for 2 pilots. Lots of part 25 jets and bigger turboprops (>12,500#) can be flown single pilot if desired but just because you have a single pilot authorization or type-rating, doesn't mean it has to be flown without an SIC.

Insurance or company policy requiring an SIC is not a legal reason to log SIC. It must be required by certification or the rules under which the flight is flown.

I flew SIC in a King Air 300 (>12,500#) because the Captain's type stated, "SIC Required". This was all part 91. A single pilot Cessna 501 or 525 or whatever is flown single pilot a lot, but if an SIC meets the requirements of part 61.55, the single pilot authorization can be set aside and the aircraft can be flown with an SIC. It's important too, that the PIC meets the annual proficiency check of an aircraft requiring more than 1 pilot versus the biennial requirement if he or she simply flew it single pilot. (Regardless of what the insurance company requires)

Sorry, it wasn't a very quick answer but I believe this should clear things up a little.

-PJ

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time v. building experience

I don’t understand why every thread turns into an argument about logging time. I posted one some time ago about building multi time and the only responses I got were about what was in my logbook . . . .

The answer is simple. Pilots are desperate to log certain types of flight time. They want to log as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and as easily as possible. They also want to log it legally. And the flight time in question is generally difficult to obtain and log. That's why so many pilots scrutinize the regs and look at their plain meaning and/or loopholes. And that's why these discussions turn on how to log time. Or turn into discussions about other ways of getting the time besides legitimate employment.

Best example is multi time. Everyone is desperate to build multi time, because multi time leads to better jobs, in which to log more multi time, turbine time, actual time, and scheduled ops time. To get the time you need the time, and you need the time to get the time. It's a Catch-.22.

I agree with your attitude about riding along just to learn. It will be worth it if doing so will lead to a job where you can gain the experience and flight time you need. But at the same time it is hard to avoid thinking about how to log "riding along" as legal and legitimate flight time.

Best thing is to work hard, maximimize your opportunities, log all your legal and legitimate flight time, and to be patient. Everything else will fall into place.

 

[hydroflyer]

I don't recall ever hearing or reading about how you must log time in the ready made spaces of a store bought logbook from Sporty's or Jeppesen or whoever. If there is a question as to whether logging the time is legal or not, then maybe it is best not to include it with the rest of your time. However for the experience sake, it may be good to have some sort of record of it. So why not "log" the flights in the memorandum section in the back of your logbook. That way if the time was legal and can be counted towards a furture employer it can be counted in the logged time. If not, then at least it appears you were cautious and did not try to cheat the system by logging questionable time. I have placed flights in the back of my logbook that I've wanted to remember, however they could not be logged. The time isn't counted but the experience is there.

 

[rv4pilot]

Am I mistaken that the FAA only requires pilots to record time for staying current, and time used to qualify for a rating. If that is true it then becomes a moral question, and we all know a person without morals will not be changed, so we should all quit whining about this. I understand times are hard, but the employers I have talked to are not only looking for the highest time pilots with three shuttle launches but also for a well-rounded person that can do the job well.