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Why airlines should buy 777's over A340's

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SuperFLUF said:
Lemme ask ya this though, what happens when your little A319 or 320 hits the wake of an A380 and is rolled on its back? Is the pilot actually in command of anything? Does the airplane know what happend? It seems to me that once the airplane is outside of its hard limits everyone on board is just a passenger until the airplane pulls itself back within the limits. Is that something you want at low altitude?

First off, I don't think anybody would want to be rolled on their back from a wake at low altitude. Boeing are not, It would be interesting.....I guess you would have to define "low altitude".

The Airbus has set limits or laws, and yes, if you exceed a limit from say, the wake of the no longer in poduction 757, the plane will go into an abnormal attitude law and you would recover like you would any other plane in a similar situation. Once back within limits, you get some protections/limits back.

I do admit, I have not heard of any situations where this function has been put to the test but then again, the Bus doesn't have a history of rudder hard overs like the BOEING 737! Little good rods and cables did them.
 
SuperFLUF said:
A Boeing pilot doesn't expect that the airplane will do anything for him so he wouldn't try to go around with idle thrust.
Well, now you are properly blaming the PILOT, instead of the a/c.

The jet upset thing is answered by someone else, but basically, if the a/c is placed in an unusual attitude by a wake, turb, etc... it allows full control authority to the pilot.
The normal flight control laws just prevent the controls from being deflected to such a degree that the airframe would bend. You want to bend the airframe? OK, push a couple of buttons and it's like a Boeing. But really, when was the last time you wanted to bank more than 67 degrees?
 
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated...
 
Last edited:
know the Mode and Laws

""Direct Law: Lowest level of flight control law. Proportional movement between sidestick deflection and flight control deflection. No autotrimming. No protections. Overspeed and Stall warnings available. The default mode on the ground in all cases (think about it, if you are on the ground you cannot have a G load or roll rate). This mode is most like a regular airplane (“DC-9 mode”). Amber “USE MAN PITCH TRIM”
Abnormal Law: This is entered by the aircraft being in an extreme unusual attitude (about double normal limits). When back to normal attitude aircraft is in Alternate Law except does not go to direct law on landing and no pitch protections. Computer reverts to Abnormal when it sees the aircraft in unusual attitude because computer logic says aircraft should not have been allowed by normal law protections into this attitude in the first place, therefore computer sees something is wrong.
Mechanical Backup: Pitch through horizontal stab trim, Lateral through rudders, Differential power. Both stab and rudder use cables going to controller and require hydraulic power. Bottom line here, very little “manual reversion” and if no hydraulic power you are a lawn dart. Red “MAN PITCH TRIM ONLY”"""
 
know the Mode and Laws

""Direct Law: Lowest level of flight control law. Proportional movement between sidestick deflection and flight control deflection. No autotrimming. No protections. Overspeed and Stall warnings available. The default mode on the ground in all cases (think about it, if you are on the ground you cannot have a G load or roll rate). This mode is most like a regular airplane (“DC-9 mode”). Amber “USE MAN PITCH TRIM”
Abnormal Law: This is entered by the aircraft being in an extreme unusual attitude (about double normal limits). When back to normal attitude aircraft is in Alternate Law except does not go to direct law on landing and no pitch protections. Computer reverts to Abnormal when it sees the aircraft in unusual attitude because computer logic says aircraft should not have been allowed by normal law protections into this attitude in the first place, therefore computer sees something is wrong.
Mechanical Backup: Pitch through horizontal stab trim, Lateral through rudders, Differential power. Both stab and rudder use cables going to controller and require hydraulic power. Bottom line here, very little “manual reversion” and if no hydraulic power you are a lawn dart. Red “MAN PITCH TRIM ONLY”"""
 
SuperFLUF said:
The real "flaw" actually is their entire control logic philosophy. Airbus has unkowingly admitted their 320/330/340 control system logic was a mistake by changing their philosophy and NOT incorporating it into the 380. A very small, easy to miss, story in Aviation Week last year stated Airbus will use "soft" limit control logic "similar to Boeing's 777 design" in the A380. A major departure from the "pilot error elimination" hard limits in the A320....etc.

This story is huge if it is true. Do you remember the approximate month it was published? I get AWST but don't remember reading that.
I can't wait to hear the spin from Airbus if they are indeed going with soft limits on the A380!

Speaking of the A380, I read that the FAA was not going to allow the plane to fly into the USA, since it doesn't have enough emergency exits to pass the evacuation test (full boat off in 90 seconds, dark, 1/2 the exits blocked). Has anyone heard this? I can't imagine Airbus designing an airplane without considering the laws of all possible market countries.
 
EagleRJ said:
I read that the FAA was not going to allow the plane to fly into the USA.
Keep Dreaming, and it might come true...
 
I read somewhere (sorry, couldn't find the link) Airbus will soon be hosting a simulated emergency, and a full emergency evacuation trial within the next few months. They were always reluctant to perform this trial, and had relied on software to "simulate" the evacuation, but perhaps this real-life trial is the result of pressure.

While not an Airbus pilot, this link explains a few things regarding its laws:

http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm
 
I think someone got it backwards. Boeing has been seriously looking at adding in hard limits, not vice versa.
 
xrated said:
Sorry Whale, had to get that one in.

Go Steelers!!

Hey Xrated.....
No problem Bro! Its all Good. This is all just friendly sparing to keep the blood flowing on those boring evenings in the hotel or the hub. :D

Down to the wire for the Steelers Today!!!!
 
EagleRJ said:
This story is huge if it is true. Do you remember the approximate month it was published? I get AWST but don't remember reading that.
I can't wait to hear the spin from Airbus if they are indeed going with soft limits on the A380!..............

No, sure don't. The CA I was flying with passed it to me. It was a very small story, say one or two paragraphs, buried in the Air Transport section I think. I remember vividly that it was not a Airbus press release as it stated that the flight control logic would be "like the Boeing 777" and I know Airbus would never say that.

I do have the article on the AOA limit software flaw. That was May 28, 2001 page 38.
 
EU( French) vs USA or what?

EagleRJ said:
This story is huge if it is true. Do you remember the approximate month it was published? I get AWST but don't remember reading that.
I can't wait to hear the spin from Airbus if they are indeed going with soft limits on the A380!

Speaking of the A380, I read that the FAA was not going to allow the plane to fly into the USA, since it doesn't have enough emergency exits to pass the evacuation test (full boat off in 90 seconds, dark, 1/2 the exits blocked). Has anyone heard this? I can't imagine Airbus designing an airplane without considering the laws of all possible market countries.

My friend I don't think it have to with side or Safety. The Concorde wasn't allow in the USA airspace not because noise issue. See what I am saiding..Not even one airline in the usa consider placing an order for Concorde when it was in the market. Ain't that something made you and I wondering....
 
Airbus has the unfair advantage. EADS gets one-third of the development costs of a new design underwritten by the UK, French, German and Spanish governments. It is a "loan," but only has to be repaid if the new Airbus design hits %40 of its sales goal. So, if Airbus claims they'll sell 2000 units of a given design, if they sell 699 or less the loan is forgiven. Pretty easy to beat the competition if it takes $6 billion to bring the new aircraft to market and you were given a gift worth $2 billion. The argument that Boeing gets subsidies in the form of defense contracts is a load of BS; Boeing actually has to produce a product to satisfy the contract, Airbus gets grants in the forms of "loans" they will never realistically have to pay back unless they hit an astronomical sales goal.

EADS agreed in 1992 to, in principle, end this practice as Airbus became a more viable business. Last year they surpassed Boeing as the dominant aircraft builder in the world yet the subsidy continues.

As Boeing markets the 7E7, last year Airbus pulled the "A-350" out of its ass as a direct competitor to the 7E7. Of course no work has ever been done on a "A-350" design and depending on which Airbus salesman you ask has different characteristics from week to week. They were trying to submarine the JAL purchase of 30 7E7 with options for 20 more. All Nippon Airways is looking at going to an all Boeing fleet by 2009.
 
Both Companies spread the risk of developing a new airplane to different companies around the world. The 30 % of the 7E7 development costs is being carried by companies in Japan. While almost 40% of the parts in a A-380 will be bulit in the USA. Both Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, and Embraer use the same suppliers such as Honeywell.

Remember the AA A300 that hit sever turb. a few years ago. They exceeded the roll rate that the engineers thought possible. The flight computer then then failed the AHRS thinking it was bad data. So at the worst possible time the pilots where looking at red x's. They later fixed this problem.

Who can predict what will be next.
 
ADF_Fixed said:
My friend I don't think it have to with side or Safety. The Concorde wasn't allow in the USA airspace not because noise issue. See what I am saiding..Not even one airline in the usa consider placing an order for Concorde when it was in the market. Ain't that something made you and I wondering....



Actually, many airlines in the US either ordered Concordes or planned on ordering them, until they realized that they wouldn't be able to fly supersonic over the US.

You're right that Concorde operated under a noise abatement exemption, but that was a community comfort factor, not a safety factor. You can bet that if Airbus can't get all the people off the A-380 in 90 seconds in their test, we will have every right to ban them from our airports.



MECH said:
Both Companies spread the risk of developing a new airplane to different companies around the world. The 30 % of the 7E7 development costs is being carried by companies in Japan. While almost 40% of the parts in a A-380 will be bulit in the USA. Both Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, and Embraer use the same suppliers such as Honeywell.



The only true risk-sharing partners are companies like Mistubishi Heavy Industries, which has invested millions in dedicated tooling for the 7E7. Companies like Honeywell produce componants, not subassemblies, which are usually products they can sell elsewhere should the A-380 fail. Besides software code, Honeywell is using off-the-shelf hardware, paid for by Airbus' state-guaranteed financing.
 
sstearns2 said:
Boeing is the largest defense contractor in the world, to the tune of billions of dollars per year. Our government underwrites what Boeing does on the commercial side by way of massive defense contracts on the military side. Europe's assistace to Airbus is just a little more direct.

Being a patriot involves realizing that we are going to be part of an increasingly global economy and preparing for that fact.

Scott

You are kidding I hope. Boeing is not even the largest defense contractor in the US, much less the world. You are seriously misinformed if you believe this to be true. The issue with is much larger than direct subsidies, EADS, the parent company of Airbus not only provides launch aid for aircraft design and manufacturing to directly "compete" with Boeing, they sell aircraft at costs lower than that which it cost to produce in order to gain dominance in the market. Now that Boeing has threatened to take these issues to the WTO, EADS, (Airbus) is beginning to see the light.
 
bocefus said:
Now that Boeing has threatened to take these issues to the WTO, EADS, (Airbus) is beginning to see the light.

You really are off the mark here. It's not a threat. Boeing HAS taken Airbus to thr WTO, and Airbus HAS taken Boeing to the WTO.

Both companies get help that the competitor claims is an unfair advantage.
 
really off the mark? Well, it seems that Airbus has dramatically changed their tune regarding launch aid (subsidies) and whether this matter should go before the WTO. What do you attribure the change to?



EU, U.S. Eye Commercial Aircraft Deal in Three MonthsAviation Week & Space Technology01/17/2005, page 394
Robert WallWashington
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Douglas BarrieLondon
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Pierre SparacoParis
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World Trade Organization case and A350 aid have been put on ice temporarily
CEASE FIRE

The European Union and U.S. face a complex task as they try to bridge deep differences while forging a new accord concerning financial assistance for commercial aircraft. Still, all parties involved express relief that, for now, a trade war has been averted.

Nearing an ugly conflict, both Washington and Brussels stepped back from a World Trade Organization dispute, and the uncertainty that a WTO process would have meant. Instead, the two plan to try to craft a framework replacing the 1992 agreement on large civil aircraft subsidies, which the U.S. declared void last year.

The commitment to talk, following a period of animosity, is the first cause for even cautious optimism. However, European sources warn a gulf has yet to be bridged between the two camps pending any agreement.

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick and EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson sealed the deal after staff-level talks appeared stalled, according to officials. A European trade specialist suggests one difficulty at the staff level was an inability to even begin to find grounds for a compromise.

THE BRIEF THREE-MONTH WINDOW puts pressure on negotiators, given the breadth of issues the parties are committed to addressing, acknowledges a senior U.S. trade representative. After the three months expire, either party is free to pursue WTO action. However, the U.S. official notes that if an agreement appears imminent, the negotiating period could be extended. The time allotted for these talks is far shorter than the discussion period that led to the 1992 agreement.

Besides pledging to talk further, the parties have also established parameters for the discussions, giving each side an early victory. For example, the U.S. has elicited a commitment from the EU to hold off on providing launch aid to Airbus for the A350. Any additional government funding that might be sought for A380 to cover cost overruns is also on hold.

Airbus Chief Executive Noel Forgeard says the U.S.-EU commitment to negotiation "will review support vehicles and determine what is acceptable, what is forbidden." He stresses that the proposed A350, tentatively set to be launched in the next six months, is not linked to government funding. "The A350 will proceed anyway and we are now gathering launch customers," he adds.

The A350 plan includes unspecified government funding. "This has been frozen. If [government support is] not implemented, it would be replaced by something else," Forgeard says.

European officials also say both sides intend "to seek early extension of the agreement between them to third countries, notably those involved in significant risk-sharing production for either Airbus or Boeing." Airbus officials maintain that Boeing gets unfair benefit from the assistance its major Japanese subcontractors receive from the Japanese government. U.S. officials acknowledge that bringing in other parties is on the agenda, but note those negotiations would come after any initial agreement.

THE TWO SIDES HAVE COMMITTED to using the WTO's definition of "subsidies," as spelled out in its Agreement on Subsidies and Countervailing Measures. These are further divided into two categories: prohibited and actionable. The civil aircraft case largely revolves around "actionable" subsidies. Using the WTO definition as a baseline is viewed as a success by U.S. officials, who argue the support given Airbus is more directly affected than any aid Boeing receives.

But the detailed definition of what assistance is allowed or disallowed is at the heart of the upcoming talks. "The way we want to achieve progress on this issue is to establish a list of different kinds of subsidies affecting either of the two companies [Boeing and Airbus] and to then reach agreement on which form should be prohibited, actionable or permitted," according to an EU representative.


Tax breaks offered to Boeing by Washington State and other jurisdictions to build the 7E7 could be affected by the ongoing trade discussions.Previously, Washington and Brussels failed to even edge toward a compromise on defining "repayable launch aid" (blasted as a subsidy by the U.S.) or the "indirect support" that Europeans charge Washington unfairly gives Boeing in the form of research and development contracts.

The U.S. trade official says the Europeans will be allowed to make their case that R&D spending, so-called indirect support, is a subsidy, but he notes that Washington continues to reject that definition.

Forgeard signaled that the Europeans are not wavering from their longtime stance. "Refundable loans are part of Europe's commitment to aerospace," he notes. Moreover, he argues that Boeing's relatively modest investment in R&D, about 3% of the company's revenues, indicates that the Europeans' rival benefits from sizable indirect support.

Similarly, Philippe Delmas, Airbus vice president for external affairs, notes that "nothing can lead us to the conclusion that refundable loans are something from the past. The U.S./EU agreement involves a [discussion] of methodology, a round of negotiations. When a solid framework is achieved, I expect we will have a basis for further discussions."

Another point of contention involves tax breaks that Boeing has garnered domestically. The U.S. trade official concedes that any accord limiting such incentives would likely address both federal and state tax breaks. Airbus backers have complained loudly that Boeing benefits unfairly from such measures offered by Washington State and other locales.

A European industry official also cautions that the stated objective--"to secure a comprehensive agreement to end subsidies to large civil aircraft producers in a way that establishes fair market competition for all development of production"--echoes wording that eventually led to the controversial 1992 pact. Still unclear is whether, after three months, both sides will actually have agreed to end subsidies or have merely put in place a process to phase them out.

HOWEVER, ONE STEP in which both appear interested is establishing a dispute-settlement mechanism. The absence of such a device was seen as a major shortcoming of the 1992 arrangement, leaving both sides to accuse the other they were violating their gentlemen's agreement. The format of the dispute-settlement mechanism remains to be defined in the coming weeks.

The industrial parties most directly affected by the deal have voiced support for the program. The agreement to continue talks "is a very positive step forward, but much work remains to be done to ensure a level playing field in the commercial aircraft market," EADS Co-CEOs Philippe Camus and Rainer Hertrich said in a statement.

Boeing President and CEO Harry Stonecipher--whose initiative last year essentially led to the U.S.' October filing with the WTO--notes that "Boeing is encouraged by the good faith displayed by both governments, as evidenced by their understanding not to provide additional development and production support and to refrain from pursuing WTO litigation during the time they are negotiating. In addition to ending subsidies, we also welcome the expressed intent to incorporate into an agreement transparency and strong dispute-settlement procedures."
 
bocefus said:
really off the mark? Well, it seems that Airbus has dramatically changed their tune regarding launch aid (subsidies) and whether this matter should go before the WTO. What do you attribure the change to?

I don't read that Airbus has dramatically changed their tune. I read that they have agreed to a couple of restrictions while their cases are in negotiation.

You remarked that Airbus is "beginning to see the light" now that Boeing has threatened to take the case to the WTO. Such a characterization fails to recognize that not only has Boeing been knocking on the door of the WTO abot Airbus, but that Airbus was standing at the same door knocking about Boeing.


You apparently have difficulty understanding the bias that inevitably will exude from an article in the Aviation Leak and Secret Technology that will favor the U.S. company. Even so, if you read the article you quoted carefully, you will find that Airbus claims the government subsidies given to Japanese contractors that supply Boeing constitute actionable subsidies.

If you're patient enough to get that far in the article you'll read where "[t]ax breaks offered to Boeing by Washington State and other jurisdictions to build the 7E7 could be affected by the ongoing trade discussions." Europeans argue against "indirect support" that "Washington unfairly gives Boeing in the form of research and development contracts." "Another point of contention involves tax breaks that Boeing has garnered domestically. The U.S. trade official concedes that any accord limiting such incentives would likely address both federal and state tax breaks. Airbus backers have complained loudly that Boeing benefits unfairly from such measures offered by Washington State and other locales."


This is hardly a case of Airbus deciding to straighten up and fly right just because Boeing "threatened to take the issues to the WTO." That's where I believe your characterization is off the mark.
 
Irregardless of the AWST article, I again ask you to explain why Airbus is now amicable to discussions concerning elimination of launch aid outside of the WTO when previously they had a defiant, "take the issue to the WTO, we don't care" attitude. Boeing gets unfair tax breaks form Washington state? Do you mean the same tax breaks that are offered to any manufacturer, similar to the ones offered by the state of MS to EADS to build a Eurocopter factility? Or perhaps similar to the state of Florida offereing tax breaks to Embraer to build a factory in Jax? Are these illegal also? Washington unfairly gives Boeing support via research and development contracts? I suppose there is no similar relationship with EADS-Airbus? I wonder how they got that NACA wing on the A-300?
 

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