Who's using PBS?

[calfo]

Here at Continental, it seems like we're in the process of getting PBS shoved down our throats. I've never used it, and I'm hearing all sorts of conflicting information about it. Will it build lines with trips right up to either end of a week of vacation? Will it suck the pool dry of any open time?

Our MEC is all for it - which makes me very suspicious. We expect a TA sometime this month, and it's going to be a close vote, from what I've seen. The company wants cuts - which will most likely be productivity increases, not pay scale shrinkage. But the company is really pushing PBS, for some reason.

Lemme hear it, please.

 

[TWA Dude]

The company is pushing for PBS because it's more effecient. There's that one-time period where the need for new pilots will be negated but after that all is normal. IMHO PBS is a huge quality-of-life improvement over line bidding. Why choose from the crappy schedules the company put out versus having the ability to build your own? Seniority still rules but even the real junior guys can usually a specific day off if that's all that's desired. PBS will not allow for conflicts because it'll already know about your vacation, training, and carry-through flying. PBS will have no effect on open time; that's a company and contractual issue.

Despite the efficiency issue I'd still vote in favor of PBS. Most guys who are against it simply don't understand how it works. It's also important to mention that ALPA and the company need to work together well with the PBS vendor to ensure that the contract is complied with. PBS worked great at TWA but it's not quite as rosy here at AWA, but it'll improve.

 

[RJones]

We don't use it here at SWA, however, everything I heard has been that it will eliminate overlap problems, build trips right up to your vacation and beginning right after, and build your trips to your preferences ... like I want to stay west of the Mississippi.

I personally do not know enough about it and like you welcome opinions. Your MEC should do a trial run of it along side your current system so you could see what you would have gotten with PBS.

RJ

 

[canyonblue]

Most guys who are against it simply don't understand how it works.

I agree! Those letters start more arguments at SWA, even more than A L P A. I am 100% behind a good PBS system because I have done it in the past and it works. Most of the guys that argue with me on it have 1) Never done it and 2) Worry about their vacation month being screwed. Last time I checked no one at SWA was getting 7 weeks a year so they are willing to throw away QOL for the majority of the year to settle for the few months of vacation that would be affected. PBS will happen at SWA, if as only a way to cut costs without going into our payscales. We have to start the research now or risk either a loss of pay in the future or a inferior PBS system.

 

[RJones]

canyonblue, I agree with your assessment of fellow SWA pilot's not understanding the how PBS works. I myself am not completely educated on the system and would like to know more about how it works and what it can do for me.

The senior folks are in fear of what they may lose and it seems they don't even want to entertain the idea of testing the system out. I'm all for a "look see" of the system and then a vote from the rank and file.

RJ

 

[cactuspilot]

PBS works great if you take the time to learn how to use it. After you burn yourself a couple times you catch on.

If you want time off on one or both ends of vacation all you have to do is put alot of weight on having those days off. Then put less in other areas. You may end up with a crappy trip when you eventually go back to work though.

I liked it. After you get the hang of it you will spend less time bidding.

I think the real key to flexibility is what you can do with your line after you get it. Then it doesn't really matter how you got it anyway.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The company is pushing for PBS because it's more effecient. There's that one-time period where the need for new pilots will be negated but after that all is normal. IMHO PBS is a huge quality-of-life improvement over line bidding. Why choose from the crappy schedules the company put out versus having the ability to build your own? Seniority still rules but even the real junior guys can usually a specific day off if that's all that's desired. PBS will not allow for conflicts because it'll already know about your vacation, training, and carry-through flying. PBS will have no effect on open time; that's a company and contractual issue.

Despite the efficiency issue I'd still vote in favor of PBS. Most guys who are against it simply don't understand how it works. It's also important to mention that ALPA and the company need to work together well with the PBS vendor to ensure that the contract is complied with. PBS worked great at TWA but it's not quite as rosy here at AWA, but it'll improve.

Thank your ol'TWA buddy "Tuna Joe" for that. He made damm sure that what
made it work so well at TWA wouldn't get to see the light of day at AWA!!
Don't believe me ask the negotiating comittee some time.

PHXFLYR

 

[Big Beer Belly]

The company is pushing for PBS because it's more effecient. There's that one-time period where the need for new pilots will be negated but after that all is normal. IMHO PBS is a huge quality-of-life improvement over line bidding. Why choose from the crappy schedules the company put out versus having the ability to build your own? Seniority still rules but even the real junior guys can usually a specific day off if that's all that's desired. PBS will not allow for conflicts because it'll already know about your vacation, training, and carry-through flying. PBS will have no effect on open time; that's a company and contractual issue.

Despite the efficiency issue I'd still vote in favor of PBS. Most guys who are against it simply don't understand how it works. It's also important to mention that ALPA and the company need to work together well with the PBS vendor to ensure that the contract is complied with. PBS worked great at TWA but it's not quite as rosy here at AWA, but it'll improve.

TWA Dude,

I have never used PBS and we are fighting it in negotiations at UPS (as far as I'm aware). I'm totally confused by your post. You say the company is pushing for it because it is more efficient. How is that good for the pilots (less pilots doing more flying)? Then you say PBS will NOT allow for conflicts (vacation, training, carry-in) ... again, how is this good for the pilots? One week of vacation will easily wipe out 4 weeks of work at UPS, same with recurrent training or a carry-in conflict. If you bid a long Pac Rim trip and a conflict touches that trip by a single minute, the entire trip drops (full month's work) with full pay protection, so long as the trip does not transit domicile. If I lose the ability to"conflict", how is this possibly good for the pilot? With vacation (3-4 weeks) and recurrent conflicts (not to mention carry-in), most guys can wipe out significant amounts of flying at UPS and I believe FedEx has the conflict deal even better with their ability to slide a vacation into conflict. PBS would be a real bummer for us from what little I understand.

As far as open time. Simple logic would dictate that if PBS is more efficient, then more flying will be flown by less pilots, thus less open time would be available ... unless, of course, the company furloughs the newly created surplus pilots created by the more efficient PBS.

Since reserve is generally a good deal at UPS (average 3-4 days per month of utilization), how would PBS affect the reserve schedules?

Thanks,

BBB

 

[English]

Aloha uses a elementary version of PBS, and I love it. I can block my work days together (say, six on, one off, six on) and then have a block of ten days off together if I want. Or, I can do the traditional four on, three off. The flexibility is GREAT. I've gotten almost everything I've asked for in terms of particular days off, even as a new hire. I've used traditional bid lines as well as PBS, and definitely prefer PBS.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I have noticed that for pilots to realize the full potential of PBS,your company must have a significant number of 2 and 3 day trips for you to bid. Otherwise it will be very difficult to string blocks of time together like English does to maximize your number of days off at home. As for vacations, I have been able to add to my time off over a vacation block by using an option called a string bid. This allows me to put days off in front of and behind my vacation block,thus increasing its length. I've done fairly well with PBS, although if you're not careful you can wind up with one nasty schedule for the month.


PHXFLYR

 

[canyonblue]

You say the company is pushing for it because it is more efficient. How is that good for the pilots (less pilots doing more flying)?

Regrettably on the Passenger carrying side of aviation, we are all in the battle of our lives. Every carrier is looking for ways to cut costs and become more cost-effective. We all must now work more productive to ensure that the most is being done with the least. If Southwest needed to cut 30 Million from the Flight Ops budget and it was either instate PBS or cut our pay, well we can all live with it being PBS. Unfortunately the Gravy Train has derailed.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Unfortunately the Gravy Train has derailed.

Now THAT is a classic quote if I've ever heard one! <g>

 

[TWA Dude]

You say the company is pushing for it because it is more efficient. How is that good for the pilots (less pilots doing more flying)?

It isn't, but it's a small price to pay. A company hiring pilots will slow down the hiring for a while but once that hump is passed hiring is normal.

Then you say PBS will NOT allow for conflicts (vacation, training, carry-in) ... again, how is this good for the pilots?

What's good about PBS is the ability to construct a schedule with trips that meet with your desires to begin with. For instance, back in my heyday with TWA I had a schedule with every weekend off, only three-day trips, no flying before noon, no "productivity" breaks, layovers at my cities of choice and never shorter than sixteen hours. I had no need to trade with that. Junior guys who just want a specific day off can bid for that and still perhaps get some trips that are to their liking. With line bidding you'd have no choice but to bid lines that have that day off and get stuck with whatever else is there.

As far as open time. Simple logic would dictate that if PBS is more efficient, then more flying will be flown by less pilots, thus less open time would be available ...

No, pilots will still fly x hours per month with PBS. The amount of open time is determined by how many lines the company decides to build. Usually the percentage set aside for open time is contractual.

... unless, of course, the company furloughs the newly created surplus pilots created by the more efficient PBS.

No union would allow PBS implementation to cause furloughs. The best time is during a time of expansion.

Since reserve is generally a good deal at UPS (average 3-4 days per month of utilization), how would PBS affect the reserve schedules?

No change, really.

Look, there's always guys who are very adept at trip-trading to get what they want out of line bidding. PBS obviates the need. At three different airlines now I've had PBS and line-bidding at two. I'm sold on it.

 

[calfo]

I talked PBS over with our LEC Pres., and from what he says, PBS would smooth out the need for a "bubble" of reserves at the beginning of one month to the next (at schedule changeover). So, the cost saving for management is right there, in less pilot staffing required. I like the fact that with line-bidding now, I can bid a line that touches trips on either side of a week's vacation and end up with two weeks off. We don't get paid for dropped trips (unless the flying touched by vacation exceeds 26:36 - a week's vacation pay).

I just like the time off. I could pick up trips to be "more productive", but I don't like the idea that the decision will be made for me (to be more productive) by PBS.

 

[intrepdtrvlr]

PBS rocks. You want the wedding, BBQ, graduation off? No problem. Senior guys get the best trips, but even junior guys can control days off, start/off times for commuting, etc. I remember being 110 of 130 and looknig through lines. Yikes! PBS solves it all. Put in your parameters, don't get carried away beyond your seniority, and relax. Vacation months I can still prefer off either side and turn 7 into 14 off.

 

[StaySeated]

I have worked with both the "hard line" process and the "pbs" process and can say with some reservation that the pbs system is superior. While it is true that pbs eliminates any and all overlap and SIGNIFGANTLY saves the company money, almost every pilot can enjoy some control over their schedule. That being said, I would only agree to a coversion to pbs if language was in place to drop/add trips with ease in an effort to free up days prior to vacation or training. Additionaly, pbs fails miserably in solving any carry in problems, so don't fall for that line. PBS's solution for solving "carry in" is 100% reserve coverage for the first three days of the month. This is a solution in the eye of the company because all of the reserve pilots cannot observe that fact that none of them have those days off.

 

[Juan Tugo]

Ok, here's a question for the PBS gurus out there:

Let's say *hypothetically* that SWA got PBS. So let's play with some factors here and if one of the gurus could give some insight into it, that would be great:

• Mid-Level Seniority Capt. or F/O
• Let's say there are 3 particular days in a 34 day month that he really wants/needs off (B-days, BBQ, Anniv, etc.), and the dates are scattered out maybe one per week.
• He also wants Mon, Tues, Wed to be his flying days during the week
• and, he has vacation next month, so he wants the last week of the month off

So, would the output be "Doable and here's how:..." -or- "Put away the crack pipe and try again."

Any other scenarios welcome, just wanted to see what would be possible.

 

[TWA Dude]

So, would the output be "Doable and here's how:..." -or- "Put away the crack pipe and try again."

Not exactly sure what you're asking. You can bid for all those parameters (and more) easily. You must assign a level of relative importance (point value) to each parameter and based on seniority PBS will grant you all it can. At mid-level seniority you may or may not get all you wish -- though you'd certainly get some or most -- it just depends on how those senior to you bid.

 

[C77MD80]

I used PBS along with TWA Dude and must say the way we had it programmed it was awesome. Having said that, it follows the garbage in = garbage out philosophy in computers. At Twa, we had Ad Opt, a much superior product than the PBS my current employer (not Continental) is trying to sell our union. I still think that any program can be decent as long as you program it properly. You'll never get the super long vacations that you can create as a conflict in a vacation month. Personally, I find myself grumbling about my schedule 11 months out of the year and ok with only the vacation month. I'd much prefer PBS. Senior guys are always going to be bitchn about the vacation drops, obviously because they have the most vacation.

Good Luck, let us know what program it is and if you get it.

 

[sfomarc]

Vacation months I can still prefer off either side and turn 7 into 14 off

Last year I had two 7 day vacations that each became 20.
Let's say *hypothetically* that SWA got PBS. So let's play with some factors here and if one of the gurus could give some insight into it, that would be great.

I am in the same boat as not knowing much how PBS works but it is my understanding that all trips just go into the computer you build what you can and the sh*t is left for open time. Which to me means forget about FLL overnights and welcome DTW. Forget about weekdays, hello weekend, forget about late starts and early finishes unless you are closer to the top.

Enlightenment please

 

[shagadelic]

One of the great things about our current way of scheduling at SWA is the ability to turn one week of vacation into three. I don't do it much, the pay really sucks that month, but it's nice to have the option. I have heard from guys pushing PBS that our version of the system will not take vacation into account. After your line is out, then vacation will be laid on top and you can take any overlap drop at that time. I might be more inclined to support it if that is the case.

It does sound nice to build my own line, so I'll keep an open mind about it.

 

[PHX767]

There was some unhappy folks at HP when it started. After all the publicity, it was a way of building a schedule out of the exisiting cruddy trips.

It's very important to understand what weighting your bid does to the result. The program will attempt to satisfy you by giving the most points that it can. If you decide to assign 5 points to noon starts, and 5 points to weekends off, it counts each possible occurance of that event that it can build for you. If there is a way to get you a lot of noon starts, i.e; 18 LAS turns that start at noon or 2 weekends off, guess what it will give you to increase your score. The scheduling committee volunteers at HP did a great job in holding classes and spreading the awareness. It was a great schedule and a fun few months until the old dinosaurs came up to speed.

I didn't use it for long before I moved on, but I put in the effort to understand it and thus got a lot of satisfaction.

 

[Purpledog]

PBS is great for people with crappy work rules and vacation. I will fight it to my last breath at Purple.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I've used both systems, hard line bidding and PBS. We have hard line bidding at XJT, but are moving towards AdOpt, which basically is a line sorting program. A hybrid version of PBS. So far I like it.

The long and the short of it... you need to make the decision what is better for you. Quality of schedules month by month, or extending your vacation. If you work the PBS system, you can get good time off. I had 7 days of vacation my first year with C8 and got 13 days off which I spent in Hawaii. Definitely a good deal if you ask me.

I know the vacation deal at CAL can't be beat. But the idea of being able to manipulate your schedule to get all those days off you need with your family or friends is priceless.

We had a thing at C8 called "golden days." 6 per year, max of 2 per month. I think if you are going to negotiate PBS, you need them in there. They are untouchable guaranteed days off. Particuarly good for when you need to head to that wedding, or your son's championship hockey game.

Like I said, you need to figure out what's more important. The vacation time off you get each year, or the ability to manipulate your monthly schedule for QOL.