Who is doing the new NWA flying? The answer..

[Monster Buck]

Anyone who has seen my posts in the past knows I don't get into the he said she said crap. I also am not posting any of my sources because the truth is that no one but NWA knows, not even the people bidding know, but here is how my money is being bet... By spring Mesaba will be flying 76 seat config. CRJ'S and Republic or one of its affiliates will be flying the Emb.

Compass dumpass never was in the game. Just a tool.

 

[flyf15]

So.... how many of Pinnacle's CRJs are going to go to Mesaba along with the -900s?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Compass does not exist, several managers left for compass that never left their NWA positions or pay. In fact all the compass execs filed in court with NWA management to keep their current NWA contracts. To date all that compass has done is evaluate the feasibility of the E195 at the mainline.

 

[SplitBar]

So.... how many of Pinnacle's CRJs are going to go to Mesaba along with the -900s?

reliable sources say between 15-20 in addition to the 35 CRJ 900s.

 

[Monster Buck]

So.... how many of Pinnacle's CRJs are going to go to Mesaba along with the -900s?

To tell you the truth that has never come up with the people I have spoken with. But my gut feeling is that none of them will come to Mesaba. The program for the 200 was only built to cover up the fact that the intent was for the 900 all along with quick conversions. If( and this is just a gut) and a BIG if, Mesaba flew them it would only be 10-20 and after you sign your contract they would magically come back to Pinn., while Mesaba focuses on the 900. and our slobs.

PS
To all Pinn. and Mesaba pilots. After all our two airlines have done to our workers please don't take it out on each other. When you walk by each other throw out a hey or whats up. Don't let NWA ruin our comradship. This isn't a battle against each other. Everyone needs to drop the holier than thou attitude. Seee Yaaaaa!!!!!!!!

 

[TAWS]

I told ya RAH would turn up in this.

By the way, for all you "Bedford will NEVER do business with NWA" people, NWA could give a rats' a$$, as long as they make money - period!

 

[i fly boxes]

I don't give a rats a$$ as long as pinnacle starts flying for someone other than NWA and for those of you who say its not possible, trust me, it is.

 

[PCL_128]

I told ya RAH would turn up in this.

By the way, for all you "Bedford will NEVER do business with NWA" people, NWA could give a rats' a$$, as long as they make money - period!

I'll say it again. Bedford and NWA will never again do business. You seem to think that making money for NWA is what the NWA execs care about. You couldn't possibly be more wrong. The only thing that matters to NWA execs is ego. To do business with Bedford and accept his way of doing things will not be favorable to their ego advancement, so it will never happen. The only airlines to ever fly feed for NWA will be Pinnacle, Mesaba, and possibly Newco (Compass). Every other airline demands at least nominal control over their own operation. NWA management simply won't allow that. They are control-freaks to the extreme.

 

[DoinTime]

Compass does not exist

If Compass does not exist why are they currently negotiating a full text pilot agreement? Why are they drawing plans for an airport operations facility in MSP?

 

[PCL_128]

Why are they drawing plans for an airport operations facility in MSP?

They've been actively seeking operations areas in DTW also as of last week.

 

[SEVEN]

If Compass does not exist why are they currently negotiating a full text pilot agreement? Why are they drawing plans for an airport operations facility in MSP?

YPF is wrong on this one. Compass does and will exsist. In order for NWA to continue growth they need more than 2 regional carriers. Within 12 months, Compass will be operating a schedule for NWA. Mesaba will continue to grow and Pinnacle, as stated before will shrink until "they" get the price they want. Pinnacle will not be allowed to fly for anyone but Doug S. If they even dare to stray, they will loose all of NWA flying altogether. The Iron Fist of Doug S. and the entire NWA powerhouse will beat 9E down to 10 CRJs if they even think about leaving the family. It's a cruel business but as the saying goes: "Never go against the family."

:uzi: TAWS:smash:

 

[xjlifer]

If Compass does not exist why are they currently negotiating a full text pilot agreement? Why are they drawing plans for an airport operations facility in MSP?

For some reason I do not think there is a lot of "negotiating" going on at compass

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll say it again. Bedford and NWA will never again do business. You seem to think that making money for NWA is what the NWA execs care about. You couldn't possibly be more wrong. The only thing that matters to NWA execs is ego. To do business with Bedford and accept his way of doing things will not be favorable to their ego advancement, so it will never happen. The only airlines to ever fly feed for NWA will be Pinnacle, Mesaba, and possibly Newco (Compass). Every other airline demands at least nominal control over their own operation. NWA management simply won't allow that. They are control-freaks to the extreme.

How does Newco (Compass) fit in with DW's "brand scope"? 78 seat rates that undercut every regional aren't helping anyone are they? All the informational picketing in the world won't undo what Compass did to 70 seat rates. ALPA Compass rates are more harmful than Skywest rates, but then we must tow the ALPA line....

 

[JoeMerchant]

They've been actively seeking operations areas in DTW also as of last week.

And how does that make an ALPA true believer such as yourself feel...... What impact is Compass going to make on the rest of us...... The ALPA/DW/NWAALPA created Compass is going to be used against you at Pinnacle, and you are probably going to continue and praise ALPA even though it is negotiating against you at Pinnacle......

 

[DoinTime]

For some reason I do not think there is a lot of "negotiating" going on at compass

You are correct there. Anyone who ends up at Compass is currently getting thrown under the bus by both NWALPA and NW management. Neither party could really care less what that agreement ends up looking like because neither one of them has to live with it.

 

[PCL_128]

How does Newco (Compass) fit in with DW's "brand scope"?

Well, for starters, Captain Woerth calls it "family scope." Second, there are many people to blame for what happened with the NWA TA, but you need to look much further down the line than DW. If you think that Duane likes what has happened to scope in this industry, then you don't know Duane very well. He has merely signed the contracts that the pilots have wanted. The pilots and the individual MECs made the bad decisions on scope. Duane just allowed them to have what they asked for.

78 seat rates that undercut every regional aren't helping anyone are they? All the informational picketing in the world won't undo what Compass did to 70 seat rates. ALPA Compass rates are more harmful than Skywest rates, but then we must tow the ALPA line....

"Tow the ALPA line?" Take a look at my posts regarding Newco in the past. I've been very clear that I vehemently disagree with what happened at NWA with scope. The difference between you and I is that I recognize that what's done is done, and we must move on from here. Continuing to argue about it and file lawsuits will accomplish nothing but tear our union apart.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

A first year FO at compass will make almost $10,000 more per year than a first year FO at NWA mainline. What exactly happened here? We have actually found pilots are willing to work for even less if they can wear a mainline uniform; we got a proud bunch here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, for starters, Captain Woerth calls it "family scope." Second, there are many people to blame for what happened with the NWA TA, but you need to look much further down the line than DW. If you think that Duane likes what has happened to scope in this industry, then you don't know Duane very well. He has merely signed the contracts that the pilots have wanted. The pilots and the individual MECs made the bad decisions on scope. Duane just allowed them to have what they asked for.

Now it is called "family scope"? What happened to "brand scope"? Anyway it isn't working whatever you want to call it today. Duane signed those agreements, and he had the power to not sign them just as he did with CCAir. He signed them, therefor he is responsible for them.

"Tow the ALPA line?" Take a look at my posts regarding Newco in the past. I've been very clear that I vehemently disagree with what happened at NWA with scope. The difference between you and I is that I recognize that what's done is done, and we must move on from here. Continuing to argue about it and file lawsuits will accomplish nothing but tear our union apart.

The difference between you and I is that I realize ALPA continues to make the same mistakes over and over again. You hope that ALPA will change, and I realize it won't. Our union is already torn apart, you just don't realize it.....

 

[PCL_128]

Duane signed those agreements, and he had the power to not sign them just as he did with CCAir. He signed them, therefor he is responsible for them.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. The agreements should not have been signed, in my opinion. However, having listened to Captain Woerth's reasoning, I can admit that reasonable people can disagree on that point. Telling a pilot group that they can't have what a majority of them voted for is a difficult decision for someone to make, and some people are going to set the bar higher than others as to what they will refuse to sign.

You hope that ALPA will change, and I realize it won't. Our union is already torn apart, you just don't realize it.....

No, I don't merely "hope" that things will change, I actually get involved and do my part to make sure that things do change. People like you that sit on the sidelines and criticize don't get anything done. People that get involved and work within the system can eventually effect change. You will never be able to right any wrongs within the Association because you refuse to participate.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

You can family brand scope the entire airline, it wouldn't make a difference. It's the regionals themselves that are the problem. The company is using the regional jets in a massive lease back scam, you will never stop that ever, even if you strike every airline at once. Giving up scope makes it easier to shift supply and demand to lower higher paying jobs even further.

In 1995 NWA had 423 jets and flew 103 billion passenger miles with about 4500 pilots. Last year NWA had 699 aircraft flying 96 billion passenger miles with 7000 pilots. See what's happening here?

 

[Tomct]

Dont forget Skywst! Bet they have an iron in the fire!!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Believe it or not, I agree with you. The agreements should not have been signed, in my opinion. However, having listened to Captain Woerth's reasoning, I can admit that reasonable people can disagree on that point. Telling a pilot group that they can't have what a majority of them voted for is a difficult decision for someone to make, and some people are going to set the bar higher than others as to what they will refuse to sign.

Then why did DW refuse to sign the CCAir contract? Were they expendable? Reasonable people can disagree, and most of us in ALPA are reasonable. However if we disagree on job security, we are not going to be unified. ALPA should never have allowed this to get to this point, however ALPA did, and it is going to be tough to get out of this pickle........

No, I don't merely "hope" that things will change, I actually get involved and do my part to make sure that things do change. People like you that sit on the sidelines and criticize don't get anything done. People that get involved and work within the system can eventually effect change. You will never be able to right any wrongs within the Association because you refuse to participate.

We are BOTH involved, but you are still involved on the "inside". More power to you if you can change directions of the SS ALPA. I sincerely hope you can, but I don't think you will. I don't sit on the sidelines, and I won't endorse what I believe to be a failed policy. I will always participate, but I will never endorse a failed policy..........

 

[PCL_128]

Then why did DW refuse to sign the CCAir contract? Were they expendable? Reasonable people can disagree, and most of us in ALPA are reasonable. However if we disagree on job security, we are not going to be unified. ALPA should never have allowed this to get to this point, however ALPA did, and it is going to be tough to get out of this pickle........

To be completely honest, I've forgotten the specifics in the CCAir case, and I don't have any records from it because I wasn't an Association volunteer back then.

I agree that it will be tough to repair the damage that scope erosion has done to the profession, but that doesn't mean that continued in-fighting is the way to go.

We are BOTH involved

You aren't involved. You merely hold a title. Anyone can hold a fancy title with nice ALPA business cards, but that doesn't make you "involved." According to your post in another thread, you haven't even been to your own MEC's strike center. If that's what you call "involved," then I'd hate to see you apathetic.

 

[JoeMerchant]

To be completely honest, I've forgotten the specifics in the CCAir case, and I don't have any records from it because I wasn't an Association volunteer back then.

I agree that it will be tough to repair the damage that scope erosion has done to the profession, but that doesn't mean that continued in-fighting is the way to go.

Of course you forgot the specifics of the CCAir case. You were still paying to sit in the right seat of a Gulfstream 1900 while DW was using CCAir pilots jobs as political collateral! Your paying to sit in an airline cockpit did more to damage this profession than anything any CCAir pilot did. Research the CCAir deal and then get back to me......

 

[DoinTime]

Then why did DW refuse to sign the CCAir contract?

DW did not sign the CCAir agreement because it violated ALPA bylaws. Plain and simple, no trying to make a point, not even a second thought.

No compliance = no signature.

 

[JoeMerchant]

DW did not sign the CCAir agreement because it violated ALPA bylaws. Plain and simple, no trying to make a point, not even a second thought.

No compliance = no signature.

Which bylaws did it violate?

 

[DoinTime]

Which bylaws did it violate?

The bylaws that govern concessionary bargaining. Without a presentable need for concessions by management the economic value of a new working agreement cannot be concessionary. CCAir managment (AKA: Mesa Air Group) used job losses by means of transfer of flying to Mesa to create a hardship at CCAir. This combined with the promise of new jets (seems like I've heard this story before) prompted their local MEC to approve massive pay cuts even though they were in violation of ALPA bylaws.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]News Release[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

Release #02.077
August 30, 2002
​

Court Upholds ALPA’s Rejection Of Concessionary Contract in CCAir Suit
CHARLOTTE, N.C.---A federal district court judge yesterday rejected efforts by Mesa Air Group to judicially impose a concessionary collective bargaining proposal for pilots at its CCAir subsidiary.

The suit was initially brought by a CCAir pilot and then joined by management after the president of the Air Line Pilots Association indicated he would not sign the proposed concessionary contract amendment. Although the proposal had been accepted by CCAir local union leaders and members, ALPA’s Constitution and By-laws requires that its president review and approve each collective bargaining agreement before it can be effective.

ALPA President Duane Woerth declined to approve the extremely concessionary proposal, which came in the context of an unbroken campaign of threats and intimidation by CCAir and Mesa Air Group to shut down the carrier if the pilots did not give up their existing agreement. President Woerth refused to approve the proposed agreement because it unjustifiably degraded pilot working conditions and offered no job security for CCAir pilots in return for the concessions. President Woerth also determined that the carrier’s management never demonstrated the need for the requested concessions and failed to show how the concessions would help save the carrier or the pilots’ jobs.

In denying a motion for a preliminary injunction which sought to order President Woerth to approve the concessionary proposal, Chief U.S. District Judge Graham C. Mullen agreed with ALPA that the requirement that its president review and approve collective bargaining agreements was well known to CCAir representatives and that there could be no collective bargaining agreement without that approval. Judge Mullen also noted that the rejected proposed agreement would likely make no immediate difference to the status of CCAir and its pilots, observing that their fate rests in the decisions of the carrier’s sole customer, US Airways, as to the flying it will permit CCAir to perform on its behalf.

"We are gratified that the court’s decision upholds the integrity of the bargaining process and recognizes the right of ALPA to safeguard pilot working conditions from unjustified attacks by management. At this point, we are hoping that we can take this out of the courtroom and back to the bargaining table, where it belongs, so that we can work together to try to save CCAir pilots’ jobs," Woerth said.

ALPA is the world’s oldest and largest union for airline pilots, representing 66,000 pilots at 43 carriers in the U.S. and Canada. Its Web site is at http://www.alpa.org.
[/FONT]

 

[JoeMerchant]

The bylaws that govern concessionary bargaining. Without a presentable need for concessions by management the economic value of a new working agreement cannot be concessionary. CCAir managment (AKA: Mesa Air Group) used job losses by means of transfer of flying to Mesa to create a hardship at CCAir. This combined with the promise of new jets (seems like I've heard this story before) prompted their local MEC to approve massive pay cuts even though they were in violation of ALPA bylaws.

Now how does this differ from the Compass pay and workrules? What justification is there for DW signing the Compass concessionary rates on 70 seat flying???? Is there a double standard in ALPA????

 

[xjhawk]

here is my quick take on things....a bunch of maybe's...

* i think mesaba is getting the 36 "avro replacement crj900" maybe even 15 of those 200's. makes sence with NWA paying XJ all that money to keep the crj program working. otherwise it was a serious waste of money. and the creditors would not like that, especially sinc ewe took the cuts.

* the erjs.....good question. but i think the majority will eventually be 195s at mainline.

*the M&A deal that they have with that boutique firm is for just that, any M&A, (mergers and aquisition). why does everyone speculate delta, it would be a fit, but would they take the offer? it NWA is looking at expanding that much, and faced with a recall which will be complete in a short period, who will fly the planes? well, if they aquire a airline, who would be happy to be at the bottom of a NWA list, it would be a regional.

I was thinking if they wanted to take MAIR, and its 150 million in the bank, they would have a certificate to call compass, have a place for the 170's, and a pilot group to fly them. since they were not able to cancell the MAIR letter with ALPA, there would have to be a deal struck. its all complicated....just a theory...they would have a training center, rampys.....FA's, all at a lower pay structure than that of mainline. and i do not beleive when someone says XJ makes more than a compass.....i looked, i would get a pay raise after one or two years being there. Oh, if they aquire MAIR, they can IPO mesaba, with its new contract, new planes, and make the same amount as with 9E, maybe less.....but still a butload of money. all with a fluid pilot seniority list.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

here is my quick take on things....a bunch of maybe's...

* i think mesaba is getting the 36 "avro replacement crj900" maybe even 15 of those 200's. makes sence with NWA paying XJ all that money to keep the crj program working. otherwise it was a serious waste of money. and the creditors would not like that, especially sinc ewe took the cuts.

* the erjs.....good question. but i think the majority will eventually be 195s at mainline.

*the M&A deal that they have with that boutique firm is for just that, any M&A, (mergers and aquisition). why does everyone speculate delta, it would be a fit, but would they take the offer? it NWA is looking at expanding that much, and faced with a recall which will be complete in a short period, who will fly the planes? well, if they aquire a airline, who would be happy to be at the bottom of a NWA list, it would be a regional.

I was thinking if they wanted to take MAIR, and its 150 million in the bank, they would have a certificate to call compass, have a place for the 170's, and a pilot group to fly them. since they were not able to cancell the MAIR letter with ALPA, there would have to be a deal struck. its all complicated....just a theory...they would have a training center, rampys.....FA's, all at a lower pay structure than that of mainline. and i do not beleive when someone says XJ makes more than a compass.....i looked, i would get a pay raise after one or two years being there. Oh, if they aquire MAIR, they can IPO mesaba, with its new contract, new planes, and make the same amount as with 9E, maybe less.....but still a butload of money. all with a fluid pilot seniority list.

When NWA delivers 15 CRJ's they receive a stock award that effectively gives management the most control over MAIR. SO they get it no matter what, also that $150 is nothing to NWA.