White House Bent on destroying Air Line Pilots via Foreign Control

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes. Why? How did Prater get voted into office? During his campaign he painted a picture of a better future for pilots. He talked a big game and used words like "demand" when talking about getting the pilots their piece of the pie back in the form of pay and retirement. Well, here we are, he's still talking a big game...not much in the way of results in collective bargaining. Now he wants to focus on international, probably to keep you distracted from the fact that we can't even get our own affairs in order here in the country. ALPA reps have gone back on their words, and they have lost alot of loyalty.

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?

Recall he didn't do external union work for years. So basically he was de-qualed... but elected.

Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?

So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?

I suggest they take a different path to credibility: action. If work action is what it takes, then so be it.

Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...

Again, management. Take it up directly with management.

I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.

and how well will this go over when Euro Carrier A merges with Euro Carrier B and they run into their own seniority problem?

I am not talking about Euro A and B. Those pilots with thier own representation will deal with that. US ALPA has nothing to do with BALPA and the new carrier BA is calling 'open skies'. Just like we don't expect the british pilots to deal with the Usair/AWA merger.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....



You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't. This is the way its been for 77 years. Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots? Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should? Because we had different expectations of how it would be when we were learning how to fly?

 

[CopilotDoug]

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?
Yes, is Prater there to serve the pilots, or himself? He seems to have a benefits package seperate from pilots.
Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?
Refresh me on this one, if you please.
So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?
Are they taking the position for the great pay and benefits, or to serve the pilots? Only one way to find out.
Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...
I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.
I'll group these two together. Each airline will have to defend its own position initially i.e. Pinnacle would stand up for a better contract. Step outside the RLA to show management at Pinnacle that if they won't play fair, the rules go out the window. Set a date for management to come to the table (in the form of their labor negotiators), followed by consequences if they don't...and stick to it.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....
Whether or not the pilots will be screwed down the road is yet to be seen, I hope this helps, but don't count the ggs just yet.
You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't.
Right, a UNION which fights for better working conditions, understoood.
This is the way its been for 77 years.
A key benchwarmer on the sidelines...
Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots?
Because we strive for better and our input does matter.
Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should?
They won't if we let them have the candy store.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?
Yes, is Prater there to serve the pilots, or himself? He seems to have a benefits package seperate from pilots.

Well... isn't that for the electors to determine? Do the delegates bear any responsibility for electing him?

Who does Prater serve? A good question.

What to do if two candidates present themsleves for election.

Candidate A: a management suck up who will give away the store

or

Canadidate B. A serve serving narcissist who is determined to make his life better at eeryones expense.

So... who would you vote for?

And is it ALPA's fault there are not better candidates? Democracies fault? Our founding fathers fault...??


And you expect the ALPA president to serve you. Fine. And what about you? You are a professional. The definition of a professional is one who serves their industry, public and profession. So if ALPA officers are to serve then so shall you. Would the profession be better if everyone had a service mentality?

If all prfoessional pilots had a mindset to make the profession better.. then it would be better. To show up fly a safe trip and go home is easy. Anyone can do that... the question is... was the place better after you left. Unfortunately... too many guys leave it worse...

And this is an inherent problem: As long as the membership expets to be served instead of serving the profession we will wallow in mediocracy.

Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?
Refresh me on this one, if you please.

The UAL guys had to have thier man elected... so they went to the CAL guys and horse traded. It threw the election. Is that ALPA's fault?

So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?
Are they taking the position for the great pay and benefits, or to serve the pilots? Only one way to find out.

and that is to elect them and find out if it s/he is a good deal? Again.. who elected them? The enigma known as ALPA? Decomcracy is about freedom and freedom requires responsbility.

Would you rather our ALPA officers be appointed? And if so by whom?

If the ALPA model is broken.... then what solutions do you have to make it better....

Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...
I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.
I'll group these two together. Each airline will have to defend its own position initially i.e. Pinnacle would stand up for a better contract. Step outside the RLA to show management at Pinnacle that if they won't play fair, the rules go out the window. Set a date for management to come to the table (in the form of their labor negotiators), followed by consequences if they don't...and stick to it.

So.. an illegal strike. Please contrast the PCL guys and the PATCO strike.

I say it would fail miserably. The President of the USA would allow Corp America to have the ability to sue ALPA (like the APA) and bankrupt the organization.

Of course Corp America will not stand for this dangerous precedence and crush it so fast. It would destroy ALPA and the profession.


Can you be more specific in HOW you think it will be succussful?

If you notice, I've provided links and websites in this and previous posts to better explain what I am talking about. Or examples of illegal job actions, PATCO and the APA.

Please provide examples, links, references and historical precedence to back up what you are trying to justify.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....
Whether or not the pilots will be screwed down the road is yet to be seen, I hope this helps, but don't count the ggs just yet.

ok

You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't.
Right, a UNION which fights for better working conditions, understoood.

Ok.. but WHY! HOW! It is easy to make broad brush generalizations... it is another to be able to effect change!!

This is the way its been for 77 years.
A key benchwarmer on the sidelines...
Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots?
Because we strive for better and our input does matter.
Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should?
They won't if we let them have the candy store.

All you have is generalizations... anedoctal ideals... and that is fine... but don't hold ALPA accountable for not implementing (unworkable) ideals of how you think it should be...

That is like faulting Einstein for not building a space craft that exceeds the speed of light...

 

[JoeMerchant]

What about your principles?

My principles are to not get screwed over my people who claim they are my "brothers"......Look around this sorry excuse for a union....there isn't much "brotherhood"....even you gott'a admit that....

I will never trust ALPA again......That is one of my "principles".....

awwww.... cause the one issue wonders would with hold thier dues... ever wonder how many would pay taxes if it were voluntary?

Before ASA had Agency Shop, most pilots still contributed....However ALPA is becoming less popular by the day.....as evidenced by the Herndon cheerleaders such as yourself out doing full court presses to try and keep everyone on the reservation.....

I bet you would.... and you'd still expect the benefit

Not me.....I think we would be better with an in house union and single list with the Skywest pilots....I'm not against having a union....just against ALPA.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

There are multiple threats....

For example... what about int'l threats such as open skies and foreign ownership.... no one wants to talk about that... they want to talk about yesterday and today...domestic issues... like Age 65.


Well, AF wants to buy into Delta and tap in thru the Skyteam Alliance.... but the membership wants to talk about Age 65, etc...

What to do?

The immediate threat to us regional guys is competition WITHIN ALPA.....Keep your eye on this pitch before you start to worry about the next pitch.....If you can't hit this one, you will probably miss the next curve ball also.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My principles are to not get screwed over my people who claim they are my "brothers"......Look around this sorry excuse for a union....there isn't much "brotherhood"....even you gott'a admit that....

Sounds like naive expectations on your part. Perhaps you should have been more realistic...

I will never trust ALPA again......That is one of my "principles".....

That is not a principle... that is a withdrawl defense mechanism....

Before ASA had Agency Shop, most pilots still contributed....However ALPA is becoming less popular by the day.....as evidenced by the Herndon cheerleaders such as yourself out doing full court presses to try and keep everyone on the reservation.....

Wrong again...

you need to hate guys like me to make up for your inabilities.... lack of skillset and poor expectations...

All your problems are within.... but you cannot accept ownership of your own problems...

Not me.....I think we would be better with an in house union and single list with the Skywest pilots....I'm not against having a union....just against ALPA.....

Just like the USAPA guys... arrogant teenagers who think they can do better yet they have no concept of paying bills, going to grocery store, etc...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The immediate threat to us regional guys is competition WITHIN ALPA.....Keep your eye on this pitch before you start to worry about the next pitch.....If you can't hit this one, you will probably miss the next curve ball also.......

It would be nice if it was all single task orientated like a pitch per play...

The fact that you can't manage multi tasks is your problem... but you like to blame others...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

copilotdoug- will you reply to post #43?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Well... isn't that for the electors to determine? Do the delegates bear any responsibility for electing him?
Who does Prater serve? A good question.
What to do if two candidates present themsleves for election.
Candidate A: a management suck up who will give away the store
or
Canadidate B. A serve serving narcissist who is determined to make his life better at eeryones expense.

So... who would you vote for?

I'd call for a change to the benefits package. Take away the cheese and the Rat won't come to the party.

And is it ALPA's fault there are not better candidates?

Yes it is. How long has ALPA been using this ineffective system? ALPA is like the Titanic, and the changes in the industry are like icebergs. ALPA gets its momentum moving in one direction and can't change course quick enough.

And you expect the ALPA president to serve you. Fine. And what about you? You are a professional. The definition of a professional is one who serves their industry, public and profession. So if ALPA officers are to serve then so shall you. Would the profession be better if everyone had a service mentality?

Just curious, when you had your first airline interview, did you mention to your future employer that you were there to serve the Union first, and then your airline?

If all prfoessional pilots had a mindset to make the profession better.. then it would be better?
To show up fly a safe trip and go home is easy. Anyone can do that... the question is... was the place better after you left. Unfortunately... too many guys leave it worse...

Better HOW, Rez? My line of thought on the word "Better": Longer rest, more benefits, and higher pay. You've already said that ALPA does not control hiring or firing or sign the paychecks...which is fair enough. But what is your perception of "Better" ?

And this is an inherent problem: As long as the membership expets to be served instead of serving the profession we will wallow in mediocracy.

Ok, I'll agree with you there. There are some pilots that do take all they can get away with. Are those who show up on time, perform their duty as asked, and go home, to be blamed?

The UAL guys had to have thier man elected... so they went to the CAL guys and horse traded. It threw the election.

Is that ALPA's fault?

Yes.

So.. an illegal strike. Please contrast the PCL guys and the PATCO strike.

They cannot be compared since it has not been tried yet.

Can you be more specific in HOW you think it will be succussful?

If you notice, I've provided links and websites in this and previous posts to better explain what I am talking about. Or examples of illegal job actions, PATCO and the APA....

So you're going to base your actions off fear? Way to go, Applewoman! You're more concerned about the "enigma" called ALPA than you are the Pilots. Don't do that, they'll sue ALPA!

Flint Auto Strike of 36. It was a succesful strike where the workers dismissed a court ordered injunction to go back to work.

That is like faulting Einstein for not building a space craft that exceeds the speed of light...

Wrong. One deals with the LAWS of Physics, the other deals with socioeconomic systems where change can be inflicted. You just need balls.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd call for a change to the benefits package. Take away the cheese and the Rat won't come to the party.

So if the ALPA Prez pay were a Million a year would there be more candidates to choose from or less?

Yes it is. How long has ALPA been using this ineffective system? ALPA is like the Titanic, and the changes in the industry are like icebergs. ALPA gets its momentum moving in one direction and can't change course quick enough.

Its called Democracy! The same system as our beloved USA.

Just curious, when you had your first airline interview, did you mention to your future employer that you were there to serve the Union first, and then your airline?

Over 90% of the guys that have gotten hired in the last year at my regional were ALPA volunteers. They didn't advertise they were ALPA volunteers but the recruiters could tell they had an attitude of 'how can I make it better..' 'not what is in it for me..'

Better HOW, Rez? My line of thought on the word "Better": Longer rest, more benefits, and higher pay. You've already said that ALPA does not control hiring or firing or sign the paychecks...which is fair enough. But what is your perception of "Better" ?

You've proven my point... you want it better for YOU. What is in it for YOU. More rest for ME. More benefits for ME, higher pay for ME!

That is not serving the profession. That is serving self. It is counter productive and destructive.

Serve the profession! The problem is...every pilot, including ALPA pilots are serving themselves. AND that is the problem with ALPA.

ALPA pilots are pissed off cause they are not getting what they think they should for themselves from ALPA. So they poke thier head into the ALPA tent and say, I want change. They have no clue how the system works. They pout and whine and because of that they get shown the door. Who wants to deal with crybabies and whiners right or wrong. Now those ALPA pilots are pissed cause they got dissed.

Do you think ALPA pilots can be a bit more educated? They give 2% for 25-30 years and they don't do a thing in terms of self education. Yet pilots will read thier FOM and AFM.

Ok, I'll agree with you there. There are some pilots that do take all they can get away with. Are those who show up on time, perform their duty as asked, and go home, to be blamed?

YES! of course. This type of person is the worst!

those who show up on time, perform their duty as asked​

Anyone can show up on time, perform their duty as expected. Anyone! You want to be recognized for doing what is expected of you? There is nothing progressive about that. Nothing professionial about showing up on time and doing your job... that is what hotel maids do.. not professionals....

Do you want your doctor to show up on time and do his job? Or do you want him to show up early, read the latest medical journal and prepare in advance for your medical procedure?

yes

Why?

They cannot be compared since it has not been tried yet.

You don't know about PATCO do you?

So you're going to base your actions off fear? Way to go, Applewoman! You're more concerned about the "enigma" called ALPA than you are the Pilots. Don't do that, they'll sue ALPA!

I provide links and you reply with this?

Flint Auto Strike of 36. It was a succesful strike where the workers dismissed a court ordered injunction to go back to work.

Question.

Is it 1936?
Is this the Auto industry?
Are assembly line workers professional pilots?
Where is the RLA?

Wrong. One deals with the LAWS of Physics, the other deals with socioeconomic systems where change can be inflicted. You just need balls.

Problem is during the BK era, pilots didn't have balls like you wish. Pilots didn't want to strike. They wanted to save thier jobs. Even last years May 17th rally basically had a no show. Did you show up with your big steel balls of resovle.

Fact is... democratically, Air Line Pilots aren't as ballsey as you are...

so quit blaming ALPA.


Look at your mangina pilots....


Why don't you rally them.... show them how its done!!