White House Bent on destroying Air Line Pilots via Foreign Control

[JoeMerchant]

Are you an active member or do you pay the CBA mx fee?

What do you believe in....

I am an active member in good standing.....It would only save me about .5% to simply pay the mx fee....I would rather have access to voting and the ALPA boards than save .5%......

Unfortunately I helped negotiate Agency Shop in 1998 as a member of the CNC....That was a mistake....The ability to withold money is a powerful tool....One that is taken away with Agency Shop....

If it wasn't for Agency Shop, I would quit paying dues.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am an active member in good standing.....It would only save me about .5% to simply pay the mx fee....I would rather have access to voting and the ALPA boards than save .5%......

What about your principles?

Unfortunately I helped negotiate Agency Shop in 1998 as a member of the CNC....That was a mistake....The ability to withold money is a powerful tool....One that is taken away with Agency Shop....

awwww.... cause the one issue wonders would with hold thier dues... ever wonder how many would pay taxes if it were voluntary?

If it wasn't for Agency Shop, I would quit paying dues.....

I bet you would.... and you'd still expect the benefit

 

[CopilotDoug]

awwww.... cause the one issue wonders would with hold thier dues... ever wonder how many would pay taxes if it were voluntary?

So what if your membership has one issue on their mind? Are you implying that your agenda is more important? Are you implying your membership (which IS the Union) doesn't know what's good for them?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So what if your membership has one issue on their mind? Are you implying that your agenda is more important? Are you implying your membership (which IS the Union) doesn't know what's good for them?

There are multiple threats....

For example... what about int'l threats such as open skies and foreign ownership.... no one wants to talk about that... they want to talk about yesterday and today...domestic issues... like Age 65.


Well, AF wants to buy into Delta and tap in thru the Skyteam Alliance.... but the membership wants to talk about Age 65, etc...

What to do?

 

[CopilotDoug]

There are multiple threats....

For example... what about int'l threats such as open skies and foreign ownership.... no one wants to talk about that... they want to talk about yesterday and today...domestic issues... like Age 65.


Well, AF wants to buy into Delta and tap in thru the Skyteam Alliance.... but the membership wants to talk about Age 65, etc...

What to do?

Very little, as the case will be. ALPA will grandstand in front of congress and throw money at politicians. In the end, the lawmakers will do as they see fit because ALPA is all bark and no bite. In a downturned economy like this, who wouldn't take money from a foreign entity?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Very little, as the case will be. ALPA will grandstand in front of congress and throw money at politicians. In the end, the lawmakers will do as they see fit because ALPA is all bark and no bite. In a downturned economy like this, who wouldn't take money from a foreign entity?

You are missing the point... ALPA is not regulatory. Unions and trade professions are not the gov't or management. They don't have the ability to have bite over bark, as you might like.

Why do you expect them to?

ALPA is doing quite allot actually in the international scene. It might not press upon you but the name is Air Line Pilots Association, International.

US ALPA is tapped into IFALPA.

The problem is awareness. The way groups like ALPA get things done is consensus. The larger the percentage of it members that get active the more bite ALPA has....

ALPA is one of only two standing observers at ICAO. That does mean something.... but it means allot more when ALPA can bark by saying our members won't do it... and the other side knows with that membership support... ALPA can bite.


Taking money from a foreign entity? Sure why not? Nothing wrong with that. As long as pilots have career protections. How can we protect ourselves if we don't know about it?

ALPA can not stop the glonbal markket place. Do you expect it to? What ALPA can and should do is provide career protections when cabatoge happens. When foreign control happens, when MPL, foreign worker permits, etc... when all this occurs.. and it will.... pilots need to have some way to protect themselves....

Got any ideas?

Get informed. Choose.

www.ifalpa.org

www.ttd.org

http://www.itfglobal.org/civil-aviation/index.cfm





see page 10

https://crewroom.alpa.org/DesktopMo...w.aspx?itemid=10941&ModuleId=10813&Tabid=2614

 

[CopilotDoug]

You are missing the point... ALPA is not regulatory. Unions and trade professions are not the gov't or management. They don't have the ability to have bite over bark, as you might like.

Why do you expect them to?

I never said they were regulatory. ALPA has held back in order to become credible with government agencies not limited to Congress or the NTSB. You believe ALPA should get involved with the political scene, I believe that it is the wrong game for ALPA to get involved with. They just won't be able to bring enough money to the table to be effective. Sure ALPA brings a few thousand dollars to Capitol Hill with them, but when it comes to the French possibly bailing out a company the size of Delta? Who do you think will be heard, Rez?

I see what you're saying Rez, but ALPA has been towing this line for how long? How long has the 16hr duty day been around with the pathetic rest requirements? ALPA's just along for the ride and the Heads would like you to think they're leading the charge.

I choose to go Non-ALPA

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I never said they were regulatory.

Yet your ideas in your post suggest you expect ALPA to make more/better changes? IS that true?

ALPA has held back in order to become credible with government agencies not limited to Congress or the NTSB.

Are you suggesting ALPA become not credible with gov't?

You believe ALPA should get involved with the political scene, I believe that it is the wrong game for ALPA to get involved with.

I just don't get this.... what scene do expect ALPA to be in? And how would that be better for us?

They just won't be able to bring enough money to the table to be effective. Sure ALPA brings a few thousand dollars to Capitol Hill with them, but when it comes to the French possibly bailing out a company the size of Delta? Who do you think will be heard, Rez?

As I said...ALPA's presence on the int'l scene actually says...ALPA will be the only group representing pilots...

What do you think of this....

Delta Air Lines Pilots Union Pens Joint Agreement with Air France Pilots
Paris, FR – Today, the Delta Air Lines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), signed an agreement with the Air France pilots, represented by the Air France Air Line Pilots Association, that establishes a joint protocol regarding the previously announced Delta-Air France joint venture agreement.
Earlier this year, the United States and the European Union (EU) signed a comprehensive, first-stage Air Transport Agreement commonly referred to as the “Open Skies agreement.” Subsequent to the Open Skies agreement, Delta Air Lines and five other members of the SkyTeam alliance applied for antitrust immunity with the U.S. Department of Transportation for trans-Atlantic routings. Included in the application was a joint venture agreement between Air France, Delta, KLM and Northwest that, if approved, would create a comprehensive and integrated partnership among the four SkyTeam members across the Atlantic.
Last month, with antitrust immunity in place for Air France and Delta, the two companies took the initial step of signing a two-way joint venture agreement to share revenues and costs on their trans-Atlantic routes, with the first phase of the agreement to commence in April 2008. Upon the full implementation of the agreement in 2010, it will extend to all trans-Atlantic flights operated by Air France and Delta between Europe and the Mediterranean on one side of the Atlantic and North America on the other side, as well as flights between Los Angeles and Tahiti.
In response to the signing of the two-way joint venture, the governing bodies of the Delta pilots and the Air France pilots met to develop and sign the “Air France and Delta Pilot Protocol I.” The protocol recognizes the dynamic nature of the airline industry including the increased potential for industry globalization made more likely with the Open Skies agreement.
The protocol’s objectives include:

• The establishment of an ongoing dialogue and exchange of information between the two pilot groups,
• The sharing of knowledge and experience between the two pilot groups to include details of collective bargaining agreements, national laws and regulations,
• The avoidance of any action that could reduce the collective bargaining leverage of either pilot group,
• The development of common bargaining positions concerning a fair distribution of growth and job opportunities, and
• The preparation for the further development of the joint venture and the possibility that other airlines may be included in the future.

Air France ALPA and the Delta MEC believe that mutual cooperation and unity of purpose are essential to protect the professional interests of both pilot groups with respect to the Air France-Delta joint venture agreement.
According to Capt. Lee Moak, chairman of the Delta pilots’ union, “This joint venture agreement between Air France and Delta could represent substantial opportunities for both carriers and their employees. But with opportunities come risks.”
Capt. Moak added, “The long anticipated globalization of the airline industry is underway, and we cannot afford to be idle bystanders in the process. As labor, it is important—in fact, crucial—that we proactively engage both our managements and each other. We must jointly develop common bargaining strategies that promote fairness and foster trust. Contractual protections must be put in place that prevent our managements from pitting one pilot group against another, and go beyond that to ensure mutual support should one group find itself facing a strike. All of this must occur while respecting and ensuring the autonomy of each of our unions.”
The protocol agreement between the pilots of Air France and Delta is historic in its nature and depth and designed to ensure that fairness and balance become the cornerstones on which the two pilot groups will engage in all joint venture flying.
Founded in 1931, ALPA represents more than 60,000 pilots at 42 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA represents approximately 7,000 active DAL pilots. Visit the ALPA website at http://www.alpa.org and the Delta pilots’ website at www.deltapilots.org.

Is this agreement btw DALPA and the frenchies good, bad or insignificant?

I see what you're saying Rez, but ALPA has been towing this line for how long? How long has the 16hr duty day been around with the pathetic rest requirements? ALPA's just along for the ride and the Heads would like you to think they're leading the charge.

But why do you expect ALPA to be any different? And if so how Should ALPA be different?

You do realize that we live in a pro corporation, free market capitalistic society. Labor gets the scrapes. Too many, if not most Air Line Pilots never consider this when choosing to be a pilot.

And when they become pilots they are very disapointed. Why? Who is responsibile for those expectations?

I choose to go Non-ALPA

That of course is your right. Why?

Again, I ask... what do you expect ALPA to be and why? And if ALPA did meet your expectations what would they do? How would they do it?

Respectfully, choosing to go non ALPA is like ignoring the [international] elephant in the room. The elephant being the issues and hurdles that effect pilot careers....

So how does ignoring ALPA, despite its faults, or whatever union respresentation one has... better?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yet your ideas in your post suggest you expect ALPA to make more/better changes? IS that true?

Yes. Why? How did Prater get voted into office? During his campaign he painted a picture of a better future for pilots. He talked a big game and used words like "demand" when talking about getting the pilots their piece of the pie back in the form of pay and retirement. Well, here we are, he's still talking a big game...not much in the way of results in collective bargaining. Now he wants to focus on international, probably to keep you distracted from the fact that we can't even get our own affairs in order here in the country. ALPA reps have gone back on their words, and they have lost alot of loyalty.

Are you suggesting ALPA become not credible with gov't?

I suggest they take a different path to credibility: action. If work action is what it takes, then so be it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I just don't get this.... what scene do expect ALPA to be in? And how would that be better for us?

Again, management. Take it up directly with management.

As I said...ALPA's presence on the int'l scene actually says...ALPA will be the only group representing pilots...?

and how well will this go over when Euro Carrier A merges with Euro Carrier B and they run into their own seniority problem?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes. Why? How did Prater get voted into office? During his campaign he painted a picture of a better future for pilots. He talked a big game and used words like "demand" when talking about getting the pilots their piece of the pie back in the form of pay and retirement. Well, here we are, he's still talking a big game...not much in the way of results in collective bargaining. Now he wants to focus on international, probably to keep you distracted from the fact that we can't even get our own affairs in order here in the country. ALPA reps have gone back on their words, and they have lost alot of loyalty.

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?

Recall he didn't do external union work for years. So basically he was de-qualed... but elected.

Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?

So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?

I suggest they take a different path to credibility: action. If work action is what it takes, then so be it.

Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...

Again, management. Take it up directly with management.

I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.

and how well will this go over when Euro Carrier A merges with Euro Carrier B and they run into their own seniority problem?

I am not talking about Euro A and B. Those pilots with thier own representation will deal with that. US ALPA has nothing to do with BALPA and the new carrier BA is calling 'open skies'. Just like we don't expect the british pilots to deal with the Usair/AWA merger.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....



You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't. This is the way its been for 77 years. Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots? Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should? Because we had different expectations of how it would be when we were learning how to fly?

 

[CopilotDoug]

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?
Yes, is Prater there to serve the pilots, or himself? He seems to have a benefits package seperate from pilots.
Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?
Refresh me on this one, if you please.
So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?
Are they taking the position for the great pay and benefits, or to serve the pilots? Only one way to find out.
Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...
I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.
I'll group these two together. Each airline will have to defend its own position initially i.e. Pinnacle would stand up for a better contract. Step outside the RLA to show management at Pinnacle that if they won't play fair, the rules go out the window. Set a date for management to come to the table (in the form of their labor negotiators), followed by consequences if they don't...and stick to it.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....
Whether or not the pilots will be screwed down the road is yet to be seen, I hope this helps, but don't count the ggs just yet.
You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't.
Right, a UNION which fights for better working conditions, understoood.
This is the way its been for 77 years.
A key benchwarmer on the sidelines...
Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots?
Because we strive for better and our input does matter.
Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should?
They won't if we let them have the candy store.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So its ALPA fault that Prater was elected? First... who is Prater?
Yes, is Prater there to serve the pilots, or himself? He seems to have a benefits package seperate from pilots.

Well... isn't that for the electors to determine? Do the delegates bear any responsibility for electing him?

Who does Prater serve? A good question.

What to do if two candidates present themsleves for election.

Candidate A: a management suck up who will give away the store

or

Canadidate B. A serve serving narcissist who is determined to make his life better at eeryones expense.

So... who would you vote for?

And is it ALPA's fault there are not better candidates? Democracies fault? Our founding fathers fault...??


And you expect the ALPA president to serve you. Fine. And what about you? You are a professional. The definition of a professional is one who serves their industry, public and profession. So if ALPA officers are to serve then so shall you. Would the profession be better if everyone had a service mentality?

If all prfoessional pilots had a mindset to make the profession better.. then it would be better. To show up fly a safe trip and go home is easy. Anyone can do that... the question is... was the place better after you left. Unfortunately... too many guys leave it worse...

And this is an inherent problem: As long as the membership expets to be served instead of serving the profession we will wallow in mediocracy.

Also, know the UAL deal. Is that ALPA's fault?
Refresh me on this one, if you please.

The UAL guys had to have thier man elected... so they went to the CAL guys and horse traded. It threw the election. Is that ALPA's fault?

So really what you are looking for is electable and effective leaders. Is that ALPA's fault? What does one do when unqualified pilots run for election? Is "ALPA" responsible for putting up 'electable' leaders?
Are they taking the position for the great pay and benefits, or to serve the pilots? Only one way to find out.

and that is to elect them and find out if it s/he is a good deal? Again.. who elected them? The enigma known as ALPA? Decomcracy is about freedom and freedom requires responsbility.

Would you rather our ALPA officers be appointed? And if so by whom?

If the ALPA model is broken.... then what solutions do you have to make it better....

Work action? A strike? what kind of strike? Single carrier? nationwide? Specifics please...
I asked HOW it should be done... not necessarily what should be done. Respectfully, "take it up with" is pretty vague.
I'll group these two together. Each airline will have to defend its own position initially i.e. Pinnacle would stand up for a better contract. Step outside the RLA to show management at Pinnacle that if they won't play fair, the rules go out the window. Set a date for management to come to the table (in the form of their labor negotiators), followed by consequences if they don't...and stick to it.

So.. an illegal strike. Please contrast the PCL guys and the PATCO strike.

I say it would fail miserably. The President of the USA would allow Corp America to have the ability to sue ALPA (like the APA) and bankrupt the organization.

Of course Corp America will not stand for this dangerous precedence and crush it so fast. It would destroy ALPA and the profession.


Can you be more specific in HOW you think it will be succussful?

If you notice, I've provided links and websites in this and previous posts to better explain what I am talking about. Or examples of illegal job actions, PATCO and the APA.

Please provide examples, links, references and historical precedence to back up what you are trying to justify.

What I am talking about is the implementation of the US/EU open skies agreement between the US gov't and various EU countires. Labour was to be excluded all together... and ALPA, international fought hard to be included....? Without that inclusion we'd be royally screwed....
Whether or not the pilots will be screwed down the road is yet to be seen, I hope this helps, but don't count the ggs just yet.

ok

You are expecting ALPA to be something that it isn't.
Right, a UNION which fights for better working conditions, understoood.

Ok.. but WHY! HOW! It is easy to make broad brush generalizations... it is another to be able to effect change!!

This is the way its been for 77 years.
A key benchwarmer on the sidelines...
Why should it be any different cause you and I, 70 years since the first airline started, are now active line pilots?
Because we strive for better and our input does matter.
Should gov't and management change just cause we think they should?
They won't if we let them have the candy store.

All you have is generalizations... anedoctal ideals... and that is fine... but don't hold ALPA accountable for not implementing (unworkable) ideals of how you think it should be...

That is like faulting Einstein for not building a space craft that exceeds the speed of light...

 

[JoeMerchant]

What about your principles?

My principles are to not get screwed over my people who claim they are my "brothers"......Look around this sorry excuse for a union....there isn't much "brotherhood"....even you gott'a admit that....

I will never trust ALPA again......That is one of my "principles".....

awwww.... cause the one issue wonders would with hold thier dues... ever wonder how many would pay taxes if it were voluntary?

Before ASA had Agency Shop, most pilots still contributed....However ALPA is becoming less popular by the day.....as evidenced by the Herndon cheerleaders such as yourself out doing full court presses to try and keep everyone on the reservation.....

I bet you would.... and you'd still expect the benefit

Not me.....I think we would be better with an in house union and single list with the Skywest pilots....I'm not against having a union....just against ALPA.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

There are multiple threats....

For example... what about int'l threats such as open skies and foreign ownership.... no one wants to talk about that... they want to talk about yesterday and today...domestic issues... like Age 65.


Well, AF wants to buy into Delta and tap in thru the Skyteam Alliance.... but the membership wants to talk about Age 65, etc...

What to do?

The immediate threat to us regional guys is competition WITHIN ALPA.....Keep your eye on this pitch before you start to worry about the next pitch.....If you can't hit this one, you will probably miss the next curve ball also.......