Whiners - Part 2

[dispatchguy]

Now this USA Today is getting into the mix with an airline-safety related non-story...

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=49961500.blog

 

[The_Russian]

Are you insinuating that we are "whiners" because we want more fuel than the minimum on the release?

 

[dispatchguy]

Nope, I am insinuating that the "correspondents" are whiners because they are crying that the sky is falling.

However, if you prefer to add fuel "JUST CUZ" (just because I'm the captain, Just because I want it, just because there is a scattered deck at 5000ft with unrestricted visibility), that I consider to be wasteful.

If any of my crews wants additional fuel beyond their dispatch fuel (if the carrier permits them to), I do want to know why - not to tell them to pound sand, but so I can see THEIR point of view and we can judge COLLABORATIVELY (that whole Joint operational control thing) whats a good fuel amount. While I have a lot of tools at my desk, I cant see inside their mind.

If there is a justifiable reason (ATC stupidity, seemingly minor cloud decks prohibiting visual approaches at an ORD or someplace like that), sure, lets come up with a value and lets add some gas.

It is the 1000 # for mom and the kids with no definable justification other than JUST CUZ fuel that most dispatchers define as unnecessary, and wasteful. However, if you can define a specific reason which could "delay landing of the aircraft" (Factors for computing fuel required-121.647), hey, I'm all for it. Plus, if you can define a specific reason for the fuel, for the next release in that city pair, I can create a release that is more real-world realistic.

No Management shmoe will ever tell me how much fuel I have to have on a flight unless they are comp checked, and hold a DX certificate. They can provide perfect world targets - but we all know the world is hardly perfect.

 

[Dizel8]

"Under FAR 91.3, "Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command", the FAA declares:

The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the FINAL authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

Questions?

 

[NSW]

Dizel, you fly for a Part 121 airline, no?

 

[NSW]

Just to expand on that point...

§ 121.533 Responsibility for operational control: Domestic operations.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations is responsible for operational control.
(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.
(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for—
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.

 

[The_Russian]

However, if you prefer to add fuel "JUST CUZ" (just because I'm the captain, Just because I want it, just because there is a scattered deck at 5000ft with unrestricted visibility), that I consider to be wasteful.

If we want more fuel "just cuz", there is most likely a reason for it. A pilot's personal safety margin must be respected at all times. I doubt that pilot will let you "tell him" he can't add fuel "just cuz".

If any of my crews wants additional fuel beyond their dispatch fuel (if the carrier permits them to), I do want to know why - not to tell them to pound sand, but so I can see THEIR point of view and we can judge COLLABORATIVELY (that whole Joint operational control thing) whats a good fuel amount. While I have a lot of tools at my desk, I cant see inside their mind.

If there is a justifiable reason (ATC stupidity, seemingly minor cloud decks prohibiting visual approaches at an ORD or someplace like that), sure, lets come up with a value and lets add some gas.

No crew has to ask your permission to add fuel to the flight. Just because the company doesn't want any fuel tankering, doesn't mean you can become the "Fuel Nazi".

It is the 1000 # for mom and the kids with no definable justification other than JUST CUZ fuel that most dispatchers define as unnecessary, and wasteful.

How is that fuel wasted? Very little of the fuel is burned due to extra weight, especially in new equipment.

However, if you can define a specific reason which could "delay landing of the aircraft" (Factors for computing fuel required-121.647), hey, I'm all for it. Plus, if you can define a specific reason for the fuel, for the next release in that city pair, I can create a release that is more real-world realistic.

Sure, that would be the fuel "just cuz". I have never met a pilot out there that adds fuel for no reason.

No Management shmoe will ever tell me how much fuel I have to have on a flight unless they are comp checked, and hold a DX certificate. They can provide perfect world targets - but we all know the world is hardly perfect.

Agreed. However, I think your mind is a little warped on this subject. Remember that you aren't the one in the aircraft.

 

[The_Russian]

Dizel, you fly for a Part 121 airline, no?

It does not matter because he is correct. You, as a dispatcher, are to comply with Part 91 regulations also.

 

[The_Russian]

Just to expand on that point...

§ 121.533 Responsibility for operational control: Domestic operations.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations is responsible for operational control.
(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.
(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for—
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.

Operational control and joint responsibility have little to do with the Captain's authority to make a PIC decision. A PIC is also responsible for any issues that will affect the safety of flight. He or she is not just the PIC during "flight".

Your only job is to plan the flight because we don't have time to. You are an efficiency expert. You are a flight planner. Your responsibility is to provide US with current and correct information. Don't come on here trying to tell any of us who command an aircraft that you will make the final safety decision for the flight from your desk 1000nm from our position.

When is the last time you refused an A/C? When is the last time you made the decision not to go for weather? You have never done either of these because Operation Control and Joint Responsibility have almost nothing to do with PIC decision making.

When is the last time you pressured a crew to take an aircraft because your boss wanted that flight to go? Where you thinking about joint responsibility then?

I don't have a problem with any dispatchers. I have drank more beer with them than some pilots I know. That being said, lose the big head and understand your position. Having an attitude like this could lead to a fatal mistake because you feel your place is even close to being level with the flight crew. It is not.

 

[Hamburger]

However, if you prefer to add fuel "JUST CUZ" (just because I'm the captain, Just because I want it, just because there is a scattered deck at 5000ft with unrestricted visibility), that I consider to be wasteful.

Sorry to hear you didn't complete whatever it was that kept you from being a pilot.


We are the ones in that metal tube with hundreds of lives in our hands while you are sitting at your desk working dozens of flights. If we feel we need more fuel to make it happen, then make it happen.


Your mother/sister/wife might be sitting in row 22. You want to tell her that you don't want to give the Capitan some extra gas to make sure she can get on the ground somewhere Alive if things hit the fan at the destination?
You may be the rare dispatcher that actually understands how to do your job, but please remember that many are completely clueless. Especially when it comes to things like duty day and 3585.

Our job is to be responsible for Our Flight. Your job is to accommodate multiple flights.

Bottom line, If We screw it up, We die. If You screw it up, We die. We aren't interested in your opinion regarding the fuel we think we need. Pretend that your family is on our plane and realize that we are doing what is the safest for them first, and what saves the company money second.