Whiners - Part 2

[NSW]

I certainly can see a pilot's argument that it's their butt on the line in the air. But what is a bigger compromise to safety:

1. Asking that pilots and dispatchers be more accountable for fuel planning (i.e. don't bring additional fuel unless you have a good, documented reason to) or

2. Using extra fuel as a substitute for precise planning?

It is a big leap to claim that saying "I'm the pilot and I'm taking this extra 1000 lbs of fuel because I say I need it" is a safety argument, or that less fuel is a less safe condition.

Has a 121 flight ever run out of gas because it wasn't planned with enough fuel? It hasn't, and I dare say it will NEVER HAPPEN. If some airline goes completely overboard with its fuel planning policy the worst outcome is that diversions will increase. The overwhelming majority of those diversions will still touch down with 45 minute reserves intact and then some, just like they do today.

This idea that everyone (management, dispatch, whoever) is against the pilots, or somehow LESS concerned about safety because we're not in the airplane is as ignorant as it is counterproductive. Get over the pilot persecution complex so we can run safer, more efficient airlines together. Please.

 

[dispatchguy]

No crew has to ask your permission to add fuel to the flight. ... Sure, that would be the fuel "just cuz". I have never met a pilot out there that adds fuel for no reason... However, I think your mind is a little warped on this subject. Remember that you aren't the one in the aircraft.

Depending on the rules of the airline, the captain might have to request dispatch clearance for any fuel added above release minimum. Some carriers give the captain a certain amount of minimum as a captains fuel, above which he has to get dispatch clearance.

I have seen captains add fuel for no reason. A friend of mine, dispatcher at one of the big-3 carriers, had this captain that out of habit added a thousand #, so the DX added the captains thousand, and then when the captain signed the release, he added an additional thousand - the captains Just Cuz fuel. The flight now had 2000 lbs of unneeded fuel (SMF on a VFR day) ontop of reserve and the standard contingency - a B737 was landing at SMF with 7.0 on board for no reason.

Hey, I am all for adding gas if it is required. I wont dispatch a jet on a transcon into ORD with only 1000 lbs of contingency (except maybe in the middle of the night); I know how ORD ATC can get screwy from those seemingly inconsequential ceilings and flights can end up with a 50 mile downwind. But landing with 90 minutes fuel on board for an Indianapolis, a Dayton, a Sacramento, in severe VFR; that IS wasteful.

My mind is a little warped only from DX management chewing my ass for adding too much fuel when it isnt required. You havta keep in mind - we're always within their sights. If it is operationally required, sure, lets figure out how much and add it.

As a dispatcher, I dont like to divert anymore than you do - it screws up crew times, crew rotations, aircraft routings, everything. HOWEVER, I do consider the occasional diversion to be an acceptable cost instead of carrying 45 minutes of fuel ON TOP of reserve (and alternate if required) for no justifiable reason; especially when Jet fuel is 4 bucks a friggin gallon.

Oh - and Hamburger, I never wanted to be a 121 (or 135) pilot, I prefer to sleep in my own bed (or crashpad bunk) nightly. And Ruskie, I have refused aircraft on occasion when I just dont like what the combination of weather, and maintenance is handing me.

 

[RJAA]

About two weeks ago I had a captain add 2000lbs for fuel. I asked why it's a nice day in EWR, you have a minus 36 mins flight plan, I told him to fly min cost, he said "It's because its EWR, we need to go fast just in case if there are any delays." He goes screaming at FL310, about an hour later he sends me a message and say if a flight to DEN is leaving on time, turns out he lives there trying to make his commute home. So the Russian needs to get off his high horse, flexing his muscle this and that, really old stuff.

 

[Squirrel29]

One time Im glad I work at a Supplemental carrier. "Captain you want more fuel no problem here you go, you explain to the company why you have all that extra fuel". Actually thats one thing my company doesn't have to worry about just pass the fuel along to the customer.

 

[WarnerNo13]

Operational control and joint responsibility have little to do with the Captain's authority to make a PIC decision. A PIC is also responsible for any issues that will affect the safety of flight. He or she is not just the PIC during "flight".

Your only job is to plan the flight because we don't have time to. You are an efficiency expert. You are a flight planner. Your responsibility is to provide US with current and correct information. Don't come on here trying to tell any of us who command an aircraft that you will make the final safety decision for the flight from your desk 1000nm from our position.

When is the last time you refused an A/C? When is the last time you made the decision not to go for weather? You have never done either of these because Operation Control and Joint Responsibility have almost nothing to do with PIC decision making.

When is the last time you pressured a crew to take an aircraft because your boss wanted that flight to go? Where you thinking about joint responsibility then?

I don't have a problem with any dispatchers. I have drank more beer with them than some pilots I know. That being said, lose the big head and understand your position. Having an attitude like this could lead to a fatal mistake because you feel your place is even close to being level with the flight crew. It is not.

If I may step in, whether you as a pilot like it or not, whether we are flying the plane or not, dispatchers have the same responsibility as you, that goes with joint authority. If you didn't know, when I release your flight and accept responsibility for it I have on my side operational control of that flight. I am the one who answers to that flight, not the guy next to me, or in front of me. Any decision I make in conjunction with the PIC is on me and can be questioned at any time why I did what I did. If I as a dispatcher deem it unsafe for you to push that plane, you don't push that plane. If you decide to exercise your PIC powers at that point you are busting federal regs and better have some good answers for the feds. We are not just planners and accomodators. We have a ticket we need to protect, in case you didn't know, just like you do. We do not just stand by and say yes to every pilot request. All decisions short of an emergency need to be made jointly. Our job is to challenge you as a crew, just like your SIC should challenge the PIC if warranted. If you see something on my release that isn't jiving what do you do? You call me and challenge me; what's my reasoning? It works both ways. It's for safety, not about your ego. When you are flying transcon we have to watch your every move and be ready to explain every detail of your flight if a fed walks in.

Perhaps you decided to just pretend this does not exist:

(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.

We are here for your safety and have saved your arses many times when you didn't think of something we did. It's called checks and balances. It is not a competition to decide who has more power or is more important. Bottom line, you fly the plane, I plan you a safe flight and watch you and assist you if you need it, but the lives that are sitting behind you are just as much ours as they are yours. So get that very large chip off your shoulder and go see a head shrinker.

 

[WarnerNo13]

Bottom line, If We screw it up, We die. If You screw it up, We die. We aren't interested in your opinion regarding the fuel we think we need. Pretend that your family is on our plane and realize that we are doing what is the safest for them first, and what saves the company money second.

I'm sorry, but fuel loads are not an "opinion". If your opinion was the only one that mattered, dispatchers would not be an FAR requirement for 121 carriers. They are based on fact and latest information. We are checked every year to see if we are making decisions that are 1) Safe 2) economical. I find it very unprofessional of you to imply that ANY 121 dispatcher is concerned more about money before safety of their crew and passengers.

 

[propsarebest]

YEA!!

You tell them JIME!!!!

Where I work, we have "the fuel list" that is maintained by management. Those pilots that take extra gas just for the hell of it are well known... They are few and far between however.

 

[405]

Bottom line, If We screw it up, We die. If You screw it up, We die. We aren't interested in your opinion regarding the fuel we think we need. Pretend that your family is on our plane and realize that we are doing what is the safest for them first, and what saves the company money second.

If you die because some dispatcher screwed up you didn't do your job, chump. That's a BS argument. I like what The Russian said about a pilot's "personal safety margin" regarding fuel. Apparently extra fuel is confidence fuel. That pretty much sums it up. This is all about some dude's comfort level. I've heard it all: "Your seat isn't going 500 MPH", "Would you send us if your Mom was on board?" and I've had the pleasure of answering that stupid question with "My Mom and Dad ARE on board your plane."

 

[bcp7]

Beyond that, if you as Captain are adding fuel for a specific route and a specific reason, don't you think you should tell the dispatcher so he can use that information for the next person that flies that route?

Did ATC change the preferred SID or STAR for that route? Is it a traffic issue for that particular departure or destination airport? that particular time of day? Is ATC restricting your climb or having you descend early?

Having this info will help me (or other dispatchers) plan flights so that the next pilot who flies that route will have a good fuel load and not start to eat into his holding or reserve fuel because the new procedure at that airport is to descend to 10000 ft 100 miles out and get vectors to the approach. Then he curses out the dispatcher (who should know these things, but doesn't, because you did not tell the dispatcher that you want to add 3000 lbs to your fuel load because the last 3 times you flew this route you landed with 3000 lbs less than the planned landing fuel due to new ATC procedures at the destination, you just want 3000 lbs because you're the captain).

Dispatch is an information business. The more information I have, the better I am able to do my job.

 

[propsarebest]

Beyond that, if you as Captain are adding fuel for a specific route and a specific reason, don't you think you should tell the dispatcher so he can use that information for the next person that flies that route?

Did ATC change the preferred SID or STAR for that route? Is it a traffic issue for that particular departure or destination airport? that particular time of day? Is ATC restricting your climb or having you descend early?

Having this info will help me (or other dispatchers) plan flights so that the next pilot who flies that route will have a good fuel load and not start to eat into his holding or reserve fuel because the new procedure at that airport is to descend to 10000 ft 100 miles out and get vectors to the approach. Then he curses out the dispatcher (who should know these things, but doesn't, because you did not tell the dispatcher that you want to add 3000 lbs to your fuel load because the last 3 times you flew this route you landed with 3000 lbs less than the planned landing fuel due to new ATC procedures at the destination, you just want 3000 lbs because you're the captain).

Dispatch is an information business. The more information I have, the better I am able to do my job.

sooo true... you put crap in, you get crap out.