Which Academy?

[Tater Salad]

Whats up everyone? This is my first posting here, but I figure I'll just jump right into it and see what I can find out.

I have been looking at different well-known flight schools to attend after I graduate from college this December. Originally I was interested in ATP, but recently I have placed an interest in the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach (there upper level training program for ASA got me interested). I have read and heard all kinds of bad stuff about Delta Connection Academy, so I'm not really interested in their program.

Fellow pilots, Instructors, Career pilots, doesn't matter who you are. I am looking for opinions from accross the board. Which school would be the best, or are all of them just a glorified waste of money? Thanks everyone!

 

[mayday1]

I guess the best answer I could give would be, "it depends." What I mean by this is, in my opinion it really depends on your personal circumstances, particularly your financial situation. For example, it worked better for me to keep my full time job, and get my ratings on the side.. benefits: steady income and benefits, minimized debt, cost less than the academies, I feel good instruction, part time CFI opportunity at my FBO, etc. Drawbacks: the biggest one is that it took a lot longer than an academy (PPL-CFI - 2yrs).

An academy route.. benefits: you'll get your ratings pretty quick if you are a serious student (<1yr), possibly CFI gig at the school when you're done. Drawbacks: most of them (FSI in particular) are expensive. Plan on about $50-$60k to get your CFI at most big academies. I think the ASA program at FSI is another $23k on top of the professional pilot course, with no guarantees.

Basically, if money is not a concern or issue, I would have gone the FSI route in a heartbeat. I just couldn't bring myself to quit a decent job, take out huge loans, and roll the dice with the hope of making it to the regionals - i.e. I'm sacrificing time in the interest of not taking unnecessary risks.

If I were you, I'd look around at some local FBOs just to see what they have to offer.. you might be surprised.

 

[Flechas]

Flight Safety would be a great choice, good product for your money.
Ask Boby, he ca tell you more about it.

 

[Folding_Expert]

Originally I was interested in ATP, but recently I have placed an interest in the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach (there upper level training program for ASA got me interested). I have read and heard all kinds of bad stuff about Delta Connection Academy, so I'm not really interested in their program.

Well, one thing's for sure - students currently attending both schools often have little or no clue how to park in a tie-down. Add Pan Am to the list.

Teaching them how to tune Unicom for parking instructions would be helpful for me as well. I still can't figure out how they miss the large yellow signs posted at every entrance to the ramp with big bold letters that say, "UPON ENTERING RAMP TUNE ARINC 128.825 FOR PARKING INSTRUCTIONS".

:throws hands in air:

All bitching aside, try a small school located at an FBO. That's what's I did and have no complaints so far.

 

[Goose Egg]

What I would probably do if I was in your situation is check out FSI or MAPD--I tend to do a lot better in structured programs. But don't fret if those won't work for you--there is more than one way to skin that proverbial cat. Find the best fit and go with it. What is your degree in? Is working full or part time while you finish your ratings an option for you?

In any case, best of luck and let us know what you decide.

-Goose

P.S. Dig the user name.

 

[Tater Salad]

Hey Goose Egg,

-My degree is in Criminal Justice (let the jokes flow!). Not too useful in the aviation industry.

-Anything in terms of working is an option for me right now. I'll work around it however it best fits.

Oh yeah. MAPD? I must sound like a serious idiot asking, but which school is that?

 

[sqwkvfr]

Tater, your username kicks ass.

I've yet to be thrown out of a bar in New York City.

 

[Goose Egg]

Oh yeah. MAPD? I must sound like a serious idiot asking, but which school is that?

Oh, sorry. I sometimes assume that everyone automatically knows what I'm talking about.

www.flightcareers.com


But then again, the mom and pop FBO route could work just as well.

-Goose

 

[pilotviolin]

Don't throw your money away! Just go become an airport bum and buy a Cessna 150 for $20,000 and hire some local to teach you. This will save you tons of money and you can start networking at the same time. My friend went to FSI at Vero and blew 45 G's to get 200 hrs? Insane! He works at Subway, and I bought the 150 and I am debt free, type rated, and have a flying career.
I was about to go to ATP, even went to Orlando to check them out. Thankfully they lost thier contract with ASA a week before I went there.
If you are self motivated and don't want huge debt, be smart about it!! Go hang out at the local airport and get to know people.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI and MAPD

I have placed an interest in the FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach . . . .

As an instructor who has taught at both FlightSafety and MAPD, I would recommend both without hesitation.

FSI is, without a doubt, expensive, but the training is second-to-none. FlightSafety places great emphasis on checklists and procedures discipline. Some would question that emphasis so early in training when the most advanced airplane you'll fly is a Seminole, but that is exactly the point. The habits and discipline you form during your training will be the foundation for the rest of your flying. You will encounter procedures the first time you sit in the sim during regional training, and, if you don't have a procedures-oriented mentality already you'll have a tough time during sim. Along with great, professional training, FSI has excellent, well-maintained aircraft and great facilities. Three of the people who run the place were there when I was there in 1991-'92, and they are first-class individuals. Of course, FlightSafety carries excellent name recognition in the industry.

You earn your Commercial-Instrument-Multi in the main FSI course. Adding your Commercial Single and CFI tickets is extra.

Mesa Airlines Pilot Development is the Mesa Airlines-operated 141 school. It, too, is an excellent program, with emphasis from the beginning on airline procedures. Its procedures are adapted directly from Mesa Airlines line procedures. Training is conducted in Bonanzas and Barons, which are "hotter" aircraft than Cessna or Piper, but for good reason. That being to instill from the beginning flying aircraft that are somewhat like aircraft found on the line. At one time, MAPD grads hired by Mesa went into Beech 1900s as their first airplane. The panels on Bonanzas and Barons are similar to 1900s. I never flew a 1900, but I understand they handle somewhat similarly to Bonanzas and Barons. So, the building block concept is apparent, though, now, I understand that MAPD grads go right into jets.

MAPD requires you to earn an A.S. in Aviation Technology from San Juan College. Most of the students I knew when I was there in 1993 already had degrees or some college, transferred credits, and only took what was needed to earn their degrees.

The deal about MAPD is if you follow the program you can interview with Mesa Airlines for an FO position with 300 hours. Contrary to popular belief, neither "the interview" nor a job is guaranteed. The only guarantee is if you do what you're supposed to do you'll be trained for your Commercial-Instrument-Multi (and maybe Single, now) and earn your degree.

MAPD does not offer CFI training. Theoretically, if the airline hires you at 300 hours you wouldn't need to instruct. However, I understand that MAPD grads who have interviewed successfully are not going right to ground school but are being placed in a pool for later hire. This can be bad at a time when one should be honing one's newly-acquired skills. I wouldn't be surprised if MAPD poolies are still getting their CFIs so they can keep flying.

Hope that helps a little. Good luck with your choice of training provider.

 

[Tater Salad]

The local FBO training is starting to sound like a better bet. Buying my own plane to train in might not be a feasible option, but the more you guys got me thinking about it, I would much rather not rack up almost $80k in loans. That would HURT financially the first couple of years at a regional.

The ASA program looks good on paper when they say they waive the minimum hour reqs for FSI students who go through Advanced Airline Training. But $45k fir CIME training, and then $23k for AATP. Ouch!

 

[mayday1]

But $45k fir CIME training, and then $23k for AATP. Ouch!

right, and don't forget all your living expenses.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

The local FBO training is starting to sound like a better bet. Buying my own plane to train in might not be a feasible option, but the more you guys got me thinking about it, I would much rather not rack up almost $80k in loans. That would HURT financially the first couple of years at a regional.

The ASA program looks good on paper when they say they waive the minimum hour reqs for FSI students who go through Advanced Airline Training. But $45k fir CIME training, and then $23k for AATP. Ouch!

The thing is, if you BUY your own airplane, then when you are done with training, you recoup the costs, possibly even making money.

If I had it to do over again, that is what I probably would have done.
I went to a local tech school http://cws.gateway.tec.wi.us/departments/Aviation/Facility.htm to get my AS in aviation, all of my ratings, private through MEI/CFI. The main drawback was the time taken (2-3 years) to do this. After I graduated, I worked at the FBO at the same airport as the school. Man was that fun. My first students were great to fly with, and I was able to get my CFII for el-cheapo $.
It IS possible to do an accelerated program at an FBO, YOU have to be the motivated one. My first instrument student started and finished in 6 weeks. Another instructor had a primary student start & finish in 8 weeks. It all comes down to motivation -- YOURS.

When searching for an FBO, make sure that it meets all of your needs. They don't HAVE to have a complex single, but they DO have to have a twin! If you have to get your Multi-commercial or MEI before your CFI / SECOM, that is OK.

OR

Get your initial CFI as fast as possible and go work for a place that has a twin. Do your MEI & CFII on their 'employee discount program' and save yourself some $$ there.

Just throwing out a bunch of ideas!

-CaKe

 

[Tater Salad]

I've never really thought about it that way BeeFCaKe. I really appreciate the insight.

It seems that most pilots I talk to that have started there airline careers either took the military route (which is a possible option for me if I can build my motivation for it again), or the route of FBO training and instructing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the FBO training sounds better to me costwise, along with everything else.

I greatly appreciate the ideas, thoughts and opinions. It's still gonna take a lot of research, but I think I have a little more direction on what I want to do. Thanks everyone!

 

[bobbysamd]

FBO training v. schools

The local FBO training is starting to sound like a better bet . . . .

But understand that flight training is a sideline for many FBOs who might be more concerned about fuel sales, charters, maintenance, tiedown rental and hangar rental. Meaning, that the instructor with whom you were scheduled might dump your primary training flight for a charter trip. Or, aircraft might be down for unexpected maintenance without a replacement(s) available for your flight. There are instructors who stick students in airplanes other than what they've been flying just to keep up their hours. Ideally, students should keep flying the same type aircraft during their primary training. Most are behind their regular airplane enough and flying unfamilar equipment can make for further setbacks (and more money spent).

Training regularly and consistently is important to make progress and to maintain momentum. Flight schools' only business is to train pilots, so you are assured of regularity and consistency in training. My experience is new students learn more, better and faster, and perhaps cheaper, in a setting devoted to flight training only.

Finally, you can expect larger fleets and more reliable maintenance from the bigger schools. I do not recall ever losing a flight at FlightSafety because of maintenance; we had such a large fleet! Maintenance at ERAU-Prescott was also excellent.

Just something more to think about.

 

[pilotviolin]

I really think it all depends on you. If your motivated you are going to save yourself a ton of money by not going to FSI or some other big school. So you don't want to buy a plane, shop around. I found a 152 for 45 bucks an hour. Not to bad. Time is time, I don't care what people say. BeefCake knows what is up. Go spend 4 Gs to get your private instead of 10 at FSI, then finish everything else up at Shebles in Las Vegas. I did my commercial single and multi in 4 days!! Look them up, you can't beat them. I still only have 6 hours of piston multi. Got my rating and now I have 1200 turbine multi 3 years later. A good goal is to get your CFI as fast as you can and don't spend a lot. Go to talk to shebles. http://www.shebleaviation.com
I have no doubt about how good FSI is, I got my type and go every 6 months to the FSI Citation center in Wichita. They do teach what is expected in the sims, but it is not worth going to Vero Beach and paying 50 grand to learn something that can be learned in a few days.

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

Don't throw your money away! Just go become an airport bum and buy a Cessna 150 for $20,000 and hire some local to teach you.

Violin,

You're right on the money. In a decient 152, you can get your Private, Instrument, drop the cash on getting your Commercial in a local twin or buy it at ATP, then you can get your Commercial Single-Engine add-on entirely in the 152 again (in just a few hours, I might add), parts of your CFI, and all your CFII! That's a lot of flying and savings, my friend. I've been there, and I know a lot of people who have also traveled that road. Any further questions, feel free to write.

Shy

 

[Tater Salad]

I've been doing some research on taking ownership of an older aircraft for training, and just about every which way I look at it, it seems to be cheaper per training hour.

Here's a couple of questions to ponder on though................ It may seem crazy to say the least but if it is financially possible to do so, would buying an old Seminole or something comparable to it be a good idea?

My father (an ex-Navy fighter pilot) suggested it to me when I was talking to him about buying an old 172 or Warrior. He further suggested picking up my Multi first, then going back to do Instrument in Multi if we could make ownership of an old twin possible. I haven't had a chance to look at the FARs for training reqs, but is that possible, and if so is it a good idea?

 

[flyinlow67]

It's possible, but not a very good approach to do it.
You need to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.
The 150 or 152 is a great trainer, and don't forget, you can do most of your commercial in the airplane as well. You need the 10 hours of complex time, but I have sent students on checkrides for Comm in a 152. They do the manuvers, come back, demonstrate they can wiggle the prop and gear and UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEMS (my personal soapbox there) and fini!
Starting out in a multi does build multi time faster, but you are dealing with a more complex aircraft, not to mention trying to get insured in the thing. Plus, the Seminole is a marginal one engine performer at best.
Just some thoughts from an old timer.

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

It's possible, but not a very good approach to do it.
You need to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.
The 150 or 152 is a great trainer, and don't forget, you can do most of your commercial in the airplane as well. You need the 10 hours of complex time, but I have sent students on checkrides for Comm in a 152. They do the manuvers, come back, demonstrate they can wiggle the prop and gear and UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEMS (my personal soapbox there) and fini!
Starting out in a multi does build multi time faster, but you are dealing with a more complex aircraft, not to mention trying to get insured in the thing. Plus, the Seminole is a marginal one engine performer at best.
Just some thoughts from an old timer.

Well said, here-here.

Shy

 

[bobbysamd]

Buying an airplane for training

I've been doing some research on taking ownership of an older aircraft for training, and just about every which way I look at it, it seems to be cheaper per training hour.

Have you factored in maintenance into your per-hour cost? Airplanes are not like cars. Airplanes go down for seemingly picayune problems that must be fixed before you can fly again. As owner, you would have to deal with these problems, not the least of which is finding a mechanic who can get on them; in the meantime, you are not flying when you should be. Is your time worth these hassles when you should be thinking only about training? Don't forget, too, that your airplane will need annuals and 100-hour inspections because it is used for flight instruction for hire, and, perhaps an engine overhaul if it is high TBO.

Don't forget about insurance, and possible state aircraft ownership taxes.

At a good school or FBO, other people worry about these problems. Your only concern will be your training.

Here's a couple of questions to ponder on though................ It may seem crazy to say the least but if it is financially possible to do so, would buying an old Seminole or something comparable to it be a good idea?

No. Most Seminoles are used for training and the old ones are tired. Too many things can go wrong with them, which brings us back to the maintenance issues discussed above. In my last aviation job, which was instructing Part 61 contract students, we had one Seminole. It was our only aircraft. It was a veteran. The airplane was down frequently for maintenance, which meant lost time for our students. Seminoles are fine multi trainers for schools which have the resources to maintain them, e.g., Riddle and FlightSafety, but are a burden for individual owners who lack these resources.

 

[Tater Salad]

I have only punched rough numbers, but it seems like it COULD (not guaranteed) to be cheaper. Also, I have been asking around more and I'm being told that a single engine would be the better way to go for most of all maintenance reasons as was said above. AV-ED at KJYO (the school I'm thinking of going back to) is renting 172P's for $101/hr. The A&P mechanics at the local airport have all told me that a 172P with a recent overhaul could very potentially be cheaper than $101/hr to operate.

One more thing. Does anyone know of a reliable source for obtaining operating costs for different aircraft? That could REALLY help me at this point. Thanks.

 

[bobbysamd]

AV-ED at KJYO (the school I'm thinking of going back to) is renting 172P's for $101/hr . . . .

I assume that is wet. With or without instructor? If it is without instructor, than you are being overcharged. With would be about right.

 

[Tater Salad]

Hey bobbysamd. Yes, the cost is wet. However, the cost is without an instructor. Instructor is another $39/hr. The school itself (www.av-ed.com) is a great school. I got my private there a couple of years ago, and I have a lot of trust in them. When I trained the 172P's were $78/hr. Rising airport costs at Leesburg, VA, and out of control fuel prices have obviously sent rental costs through the roof. I'm not the most knowledgeable person on operating costs, but I think I can do better with a personal aircraft (single engine) than $101/hr for operating costs. What do you think?

 

[bobbysamd]

Your own training airplane

[The] cost is wet. However, the cost is without an instructor. Instructor is another $39/hr. The school itself (www.av-ed.com) is a great school. I got my private there a couple of years ago, and I have a lot of trust in them. When I trained the 172P's were $78/hr. Rising airport costs at Leesburg, VA, and out of control fuel prices have obviously sent rental costs through the roof. I'm not the most knowledgeable person on operating costs, but I think I can do better with a personal aircraft (single engine) than $101/hr for operating costs. What do you think?

The dual charge is about right. Last I checked, here in Denver, 172s were going for $65 per hour, but that was before crude prices had gone out of control.

In that regard, fuel prices are something you need to consider. You also need to consider if it is worth your time to deal with everyday airplane operating hassles and their effect on your training schedule. You might think you're saving money but, in the long run, if unexpected maintenance comes up and it grounds you, training delays, the costs of extra flights and instructor time could eat up your savings. For these reasons, I would recommend against purchasing an airplane and being trained in it.