where's the xjt gouge?

[Stearmandriver]

Please, tough words from an FO with no PIC time. Have resolve and stick to your guns with the contract negotiations but I am sick of the bravado. You'll be proud, when your sitting there as a CFI again. I will strike if I have to, I certianly hope it never comes to that. I am all about a fair contract but I am not looking to "shut this f----n place down!" Lets try and show some professionalism here eh? It is a public forum for cryin out loud.

EXCUSE me?? Listen dude (your name is Pete if I remember right from Calforums?), 3 things:

1. "Tough words from an FO with no PIC time" - I spent 2 years as a captain. I'm an FO now by choice, because, hey, call me crazy, but I guess I got a little spoiled seeing my home and my family more than the 2 days a week I was seeing them on reserve. I'm just hanging in the right seat for a few more months now... I figure by our next bid there'll be enough people trained junior to me that I can hold a line. Makes all the difference in the world when you commute.

2. "... sick of the bravado..." It's not bravado. "Bravado" suggests that I'm bluffing, spouting off tough talk without really considering the reality of my suggestions. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wouldn't mind being a CFI again at all... I made more my last few years doing that then I am as a 5th (almost 6th) year fo, and big fans and video games are not really my idea of a real airplane. I only thought (mistakenly it seems) that they might pay the bills a little better. I have not completely given up hope yet that my flying career might progress, but if I don't see some promising signs in the next year or so... outta here I go. Flying isn't my only skill.

3. You are not the first captain to suggest that I'm out of line for expecting that I should be able to support a family as the first officer of a 50 pax, 55,000lb jet. I don't expect to support them lavishly, opulently, or decadently... but I see no reason why "comfortably" should be out of the question. If our first officers, men and women who posess levels of education and specialized training that few other professions can match, cannot support their families at the same level as a TSA screener (1st yr $36000), NYC bus driver (4th yr. $58,000), construction laborer (my buddy, 5th yr. $80,000 w/ overtime) etc, then, far as I'm concerned, the company doesn't deserve to still be in business. I have defended this position vehemently, in person, in crew room discussions, so I'm certainly not going to waffle here on an anonymous forum.

Additionally, you can save your attacks of my professionalism until we've flown together. Public internet message boards are freedom of speech in it's purest form, and it's just silliness to think that my published opinions are in any way going to affect the outcome of our contract. You are entitled to your opinions, and your right to voice them, same as I am. We don't have to agree with each other, but we certainly shouldn't be arguing over our respective rights of free speech and debate.

I apologize if any of this post offends you. Honestly I don't mean to do that at all. I'm just responding to the somewhat derisive tone in your response. If we ever DO end up flying together at work, first beer's on me.

Joe

 

[BobbyB]

If I am not mistaken, there IS a solution to your problem:
Quit! Nobody is stopping you, and a bunch of guys on this forum are waiting in line to take your $20something K/year job. The payscale is not a big company secret, and your are not contracted to stay. Put your very little money where your mouth is and show the company that they don't pay their professionals enough. Market forces and the job market, I think, will prove that they pay plenty due to the 3000 whatever applications they have to jump into the right seat.
It does suck to be poor, but if you think your training and initiative can make more money, or you will be more satisfied doing something else, then go for it.

 

[d.fitz]

Tabexpress F/O:

Boy, you were instigating on another post just the other day.

Go play somewhere else.... no ones cares.

 

[CrewDawg]

If I am not mistaken, there IS a solution to your problem:
Quit! Nobody is stopping you, and a bunch of guys on this forum are waiting in line to take your $20something K/year job.

Call me crazy but isn't that one of the reasons that the pay scale's are so low right now. I guess its a fact of life, there is always someone willing to work for less.

 

[Stearmandriver]

BobbyB: " Nobody is stopping you, and a bunch of guys on this forum are waiting in line to take your $20something K/year job."

TabExpress: "And please don't flame me for being a PFTer, i've heard all the arguments and for me this is the best route to take, it's just that i'd love to get on with XJet in the future and would love to walk into a great contract with livable wages and work rules in case i get stuck at XJet and can't get on with a major."

LOL... two posts attempting to refute my position, and all you both do is seal it up. Bobby, your statement quoted above is maybe the very best explanation I've seen yet for what's wrong with the airline industry. You distilled it into one sentence. Nice job.

TabExpress, this is greed at its most astounding - in the same sentence, you defend yourself for buying a job, and then charge US with securing a contract YOU'D be happy to come work under.

Let me ask you both a question: if companies continue to see that, not only are pilots willing to work for wages that would insult a comparably trained professional in any other field, but they're actually willing to PAY FOR these positions, what do you suppose the chances are of any of us getting a livable contract? Boys, the days of "paying your dues" at a regional for 2 years, then progressing to a major, are gone. For an awful lot of you, the RJ operators WILL BE your airline career.

Those of us at Xjet ARE standing up for ourselves, and I believe we WILL secure a very good contract. Ya know, one that guarantees that no pilot on our payroll is eligible for food stamps (under our current contract, some are). I won't speak for anyone else here, but I for one will vote "no" until either they pay me a wage similiar to that earned by other professionals with a 4 year degree, 3-4 years of specialty training, and another several years of building experience before even becoming eligible for their current job... or the doors close. There is no middle ground for me. 30k/yr? I can go make that anywhere. Flying airplanes or NOT. Believe it or not, there is life outside of aviation.

If the good 'ol boys from 20 or 30 years ago, ya know, the ones who stood up for themselves and made this a real career? could see us now, they'd be sick. Fighting over the "privilege" of flying a jet for 20k. Jesus.

Joe

 

[scoot]

Joe, I'm with you. You go man! Hang in there, try to stay positive. It's been a bad few years for the whole economy. Things will get better. Thanks for your efforts to try and improve things.

 

[Nova]

Oh cmon man, you really are totally out of touch. Being put on the street would have been a blessing for anyone near the bottom of our list for the last TWO AND A HALF YEARS. Too junoir for a COLA, before you throw that out there. Those poor bastards were held hostage and tossed from domicile to domicile every other bid. Great, 26k a year GROSS, 3k a year in commuting costs, to sit reserve with a 3am availability, 'bout 1200 a year in per diem. 200-300 SIC flight hours a year. Away from home 200 nights per year (most in a crash pad). Who in their right mind would be relieved about that scenario?

And what did you think this job would be like? 18 days off and $10,000 a month from the start? If it was really that bad, quit. If you didn't like this time you'll be just as disappointed when it comes around again in 10 years. I remember those early 2001 hires bragging that they never sat reserve when they were hired while those of us senior to them were riding the pine on the turboprops. Then the tables turn and they all cry foul that they are stuck on reserve. It's finally all about seniority, so sorry for you luck.

Lemme guess, you're a CA who has learned to live and support his family well off 60k a year. You've learned to live cheap and management has already done a great job of lowering your expectations! You probably have no plan whatsoever for retirement. God forbid your child would ever want to goto college... that'll cost **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near 400k 18 years from now.

You would like that wouldn't you, just so you can feel more sorry for yourself? Nope, never sat in the left seat and thanks to training out of seniority order there were plenty of folks junior to me who did. But no need to tell you that as you've already got me figured out and I'm sure you've had plenty of experience with that at XJet as well.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and crying foul for sympathy. We're all in the same boat.

 

[nonstop]

And what did you think this job would be like? 18 days off and $10,000 a month from the start? If it was really that bad, quit. If you didn't like this time you'll be just as disappointed when it comes around again in 10 years. I remember those early 2001 hires bragging that they never sat reserve when they were hired while those of us senior to them were riding the pine on the turboprops. Then the tables turn and they all cry foul that they are stuck on reserve. It's finally all about seniority, so sorry for you luck.

I'm not sure what you're referring to? But since you asked, no this career is not what I expected. If you were able to forecast the current state of this industry 10 years ago you're a smarter man than I. Had I known what I know now I would have never wasted my time pursuing this line of work. I was speaking of FO's in that situation, not myself. I think they were in a bad situation, and I think this industry puts a lot of people in bad situations. Management likes to perpetuate the "pay your dues" mentality. I think it's a bunch of bs personally and I'm always amazed at pilots that actually subscribe to this line of thought. You're signing on to the fact that you shouldn't be compensated or treated properly when you're a trained professional. That you earn some kind of bragging rights for working for less than you deserve. Due's should be paid to attain a position like airline pilot (and they are), not when you're employeed by a company turning a profit off your hard earned skills.

You would like that wouldn't you, just so you can feel more sorry for yourself? Nope, never sat in the left seat and thanks to training out of seniority order there were plenty of folks junior to me who did. But no need to tell you that as you've already got me figured out and I'm sure you've had plenty of experience with that at XJet as well.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and crying foul for sympathy. We're all in the same boat.

Well I was close, you're actively attempting to lower expectations because you don't want the group to fight for what they deserve. I see it everyday on calforums and here, you're not fooling me with your motives. I don't really believe you or any pilot is inept enough to truely buy into the "pay your dues" propoganda. You're afraid of losing your precious seniority so you'll sign off on a less than adequate package to retain your position. It's the same reason all these other places are signing off on garbage contracts. You attempt to lower expectations by telling people "it's just the way it goes, pay your dues like a tough little soldier and someday down the road you'll actually be compensated fairly."

I guess we'll see which voice is louder when voting time comes. The ones who are truely trying to raise the bar in this profession, and willing to sacrifice what they've attained because they demand fair compensation. Or those like you who are too afraid to lose what they have and have already lowered their expectations. Telling people who are clearly grossly under compensated to "suck it up, don't feel sorry for yourself," oh please.

I post here to post insight on the situation for those aspiring to be here, because I think if many knew the reality they wouldn't aspire for it. I'm really not interested in bantering back and forth with someone like you. We posses two different levels of expectations. If you enjoy chasing the proverbial carrot on the stick, I feel sorry for you.

 

[mckpickle]

I'm just trying to find out why all of a sudden the bravado from the XJet pilots has cooled down?

Maybe because every other contract that has been signed in the last 2 years has lowered the Bar. Christ no one has even come close to Comair.

We are not giving up. We will secure a good and fair contract. But when Mesa, CHQ, MESAba, and now US air mainline keep tryng to undercut everyone how can we fit into the economic envolope? 3 years ago 100/hr seems abtainable. Now if we do it we'd be out of jobs because everyone else would do our flying.

 

[Nova]

I never addressed the philosophy of "paying ones dues" but did make light of your statement pleading such:

Too junoir for a COLA, before you throw that out there. Those poor bastards were held hostage and tossed from domicile to domicile every other bid. Great, 26k a year GROSS, 3k a year in commuting costs, to sit reserve with a 3am availability, 'bout 1200 a year in per diem. 200-300 SIC flight hours a year. Away from home 200 nights per year (most in a crash pad).

And my answer to that was seniority. Guess what happens when you are at the bottom of the list? Not every year in this industry is going to mean quick forward movement. I'm sure it had to suck to be in that position but I don't feel sorry for them. Numerous pilots in that position were TDY'd for months as they sat on the turboprops after 9/11 and banked 100+ pay hours a months for quite awhile. That sure was a lot of "dues" they paid, huh?

You're signing on to the fact that you shouldn't be compensated or treated properly when you're a trained professional. That you earn some kind of bragging rights for working for less than you deserve.

Um, I don't think I ever addressed compensation or how much I think I'm worth as a pilot. Please quote me since you are sure of yourself.

You attempt to lower expectations by telling people "it's just the way it goes, pay your dues like a tough little soldier and someday down the road you'll actually be compensated fairly."

Making light of the fact that for once at this company seniority means something shouldn't lower their expectations unless they thought that they would continue to hold a line while senior pilots were stuck on reserve. Again, I never said that being on reserve was apart of paying their dues. Please quote me where I said that.

 

[rumorhasit]

Re: Scope? CAL?? LOL!!!

ERJ-Mech...

That is indeed CAL's "scope" clause, if allowing unlimited 50 seat RJ's can be called scope. Doesn't really apply to the question of whether or not we at XJET can get bigger airplanes. Since they spun us off, we can do anything we like! Just can't fly them as Calex airplanes, meaning we'd need a contract with someone else (we obviously don't have the resources in place to operate them independently).

I second that...Does 30% CAL ownership void scope? I heard there is a emb170 mock up in ewr? dont know about closing the doors though!!!!

 

[Mr Hat]

Stearman guy,
Now you are reading MY post incorrectly. I wouldnt dream of saying

captain to suggest that I'm out of line for expecting that I should be able to support a family as the first officer of a 50 pax, 55,000lb jet.

Anyone who said that to you should be smacked. Our FO's should be able to live, in EWR our most expensive base, comfortably, period. There is no reason in this world why an airline pilot has money problems, the job itself warrents way to much responsibility to be compensated like an entry level hamburger technician.

My concern was your comment about them paying us SOOOOOO much that they can't afford a J3 Cub. That was an irresponsible statement. You know darn well they could pay us a MAJOR airline scale and still turn a profit because of the way our operation runs. It sounds like you want the world, not the comfortable living you are really seeking. So dont take my post as to mean that I am willing to settle for Mesa +1%....if that were the case, I'd be walkin that line right next to you.

About "Bravado"- I am sick of hearing guys with rediculous expectations and and no knowledge of the RLA talking about how THEY are going to shut this place down unless every demand that they have is met. 120.00 an hour, 150% retro, No ASB, Trip/Rigs, blah blah blah......These folks arent going to be satisified no matter what we get. I am not saying that you are one of these people, in fact your second post clairified a few things. The first one gave the appearance of the demanding type.

Tough words- One thing I've learned in growing up hanging out in Newark....those that talk the loudest, fall the hardest and are the first to run when the sh** hits the fan. Again, I do not think you fall into this catagory, I'm just explaining why Im not impressed with the Tough words I read under yoke caps.


Hagen,
I too will walk the line if things arent improved. There arent many here who wouldnt. However, I do not wish for it, I do not gloat about it. I sincerely hope that it never comes to that. I do not WANT to strike, however if it comes down to it, I'll throw down. I believe it will never come to that because our company folk are working with us and I believe that we will come to a satisfactory conclusion without incidient. And believe it or not, I feel your pain dude. Its rediculous that you should have to go through such money issues. I really feel for our FO's but I also feel for our Captains. 50,000 a year isnt enough to raise a family in New Jersey either. Again, I am not willing to accept anything that doesnt make our FO's comfortable- I need their heads in the cockpit not worrying about how they are going to pay the bills next month.....hell, the passengers really need their pilots focused on what they are doing.

For the other folks who don't work here and are wondering why I am squashing "strike" talk.
I will say only one thing:
OUR PAY WILL RESET THE BAR FOR 50 SEAT JETS. Do not worry about that.

Don't assume I am weak because I am not thumping my chest.....anyone who knows me will tell you that.

 

[Mr Hat]

Oh and Rumorhaist....Scope has nothing to do with ownership, it is negotiated between the CAL pilots and CAL management. If we flew larger airplanes for CAL, it would violate the CAL contract and the CAL pilots would have reason to go after the company.


The EMB170 door mockup in EWR is a joke, its an E145 mockup with the words "EMB170 Door Mockup" written on a paper plate hanging on it.....

I would have thought the paper plate would have given away the punchline but hey....

 

[Stearmandriver]

Stearman guy,
Now you are reading MY post incorrectly. I wouldnt dream of saying Anyone who said that to you should be smacked. Our FO's should be able to live, in EWR our most expensive base, comfortably, period. There is no reason in this world why an airline pilot has money problems, the job itself warrents way to much responsibility to be compensated like an entry level hamburger technician.

My concern was your comment about them paying us SOOOOOO much that they can't afford a J3 Cub. That was an irresponsible statement. You know darn well they could pay us a MAJOR airline scale and still turn a profit because of the way our operation runs. It sounds like you want the world, not the comfortable living you are really seeking. So dont take my post as to mean that I am willing to settle for Mesa +1%....if that were the case, I'd be walkin that line right next to you.

About "Bravado"- I am sick of hearing guys with rediculous expectations and and no knowledge of the RLA talking about how THEY are going to shut this place down unless every demand that they have is met. 120.00 an hour, 150% retro, No ASB, Trip/Rigs, blah blah blah......These folks arent going to be satisified no matter what we get. I am not saying that you are one of these people, in fact your second post clairified a few things. The first one gave the appearance of the demanding type.

Tough words- One thing I've learned in growing up hanging out in Newark....those that talk the loudest, fall the hardest and are the first to run when the sh** hits the fan. Again, I do not think you fall into this catagory, I'm just explaining why Im not impressed with the Tough words I read under yoke caps.

.

OK, fair enough. I guess, re-reading your first post, you never really did suggest we didn't deserve fair money. Maybe I'm just over-sensitive after flying all last month with a guy who told me he thought our F/Os were fairly paid, but captains needed a raise. Of course, maybe that's just because he was flying with me...

Really, though, the problem is that he wasn't kidding. We never actually got into an argument over it, because that wouldn't have been a very fun month and he was a good enough guy otherwise... I just told him why I disagreed with him and we both dropped it. This is scary thinking though. But, sorry to jump to put words in your mouth. My fault.

The remark about not leaving them enough money to buy a J3 was just fired off, tongue in cheek, after staying up way too late. Guess I can see how it could have come across otherwise to someone who doesn't know me. Again, sorry. Of course I don't want to break the company... unless they force us to. They can afford to pay us very well and still turn a profit, and that's good for everyone.

I like the yoke cap discussions though. After canceling the multitude of start up bells and pos-initing the FMS to get the ahrs cookin', it's usually the next thing I reach for.



Joe

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Maybe I'm just over-sensitive after flying all last month with a guy who told me he thought our F/Os were fairly paid, but captains needed a raise.
Joe

Who in the hell were you flying with?