Where the Real Blame Lies...

[Abernathy]

How stupid are you? Since when will the FAA ever cave in to what the NTSB says, when it involves money $$$????????? Sorry, but the ATA and RAA will ensure, through powerful $ lobbying, that the FAA maintain status quo on how things are right now. Expect changes in stall profiles (to probably include all the way to pusher). But do NOT expect changes in long duty days, reduced rest, and fatiguing schedules.

Flyer, he's absolutely right. I just posted this very thing on another thread before I read this one. If the gov't wants highly qualified experienced pilots, they're going to have to set an airline pilot minimum wage. Otherwise, all the experienced talent will continue to go to the middle east, asia, etc...

 

[Papa Woody]

No, that was pretty much all Molin and rudder smashing to full deflection, left and right, 5 or 6 times before finally snapping.

What pilot would ever do that under any imaginable circumstances?

 

[Mike man]

American 587 was a bomb.

Uhhh...really? Do you read what you type or just sort of fade in and out?

 

[lionflyer]

Flyer, he's absolutely right. I just posted this very thing on another thread before I read this one. If the gov't wants highly qualified experienced pilots, they're going to have to set an airline pilot minimum wage. Otherwise, all the experienced talent will continue to go to the middle east, asia, etc...

They'll have to re-regulate the industry for that. I don't see it happening.

 

[Abernathy]

They'll have to re-regulate the industry for that. I don't see it happening.

I don't think it's that unlikely that we could see a limited form of regulation resurface.

 

[satpak77]

I think this is all Bush's fault. Because 90% of FI think it is not the pilots fault.

Generation Y at work (no reverse pun intended).

 

[Poahi]

What pilot would ever do that under any imaginable circumstances?

What pilot wouldn't manage airspeed? What pilot would wait on the thrust reversers? What pilot would run out of fuel? What pilot would fly tired? What pilot would fly in to a convective storm? What pilot would take off without a clearance? What pilot would take off without verifying which runway he was on? Pilot error happens at every experience level. That's why the bashing is senseless and building up someone like Sully is counter productive as well.

The heros are the ones you don't see in the news that prevent accidents by avoiding them all together. I've seen regional pilots who rival any major airline pilot and I've seen pilots for the majors who shouldn't be flying anything at all. This type of class warfare isn't going to work. (Well, it might get you a book deal)

 

[Dubya]

Clouds are scary!

Sheeeeeeit. I see clouds coming, turn down my ipod and i'm all like, "what's up cloud full of severe icing beeotch?", and the cloud's like "nothing sir", and i'm like, "that's right beeotch, go make me a chicken pot pie".

 

[ground_fog]

Just having hours should not qualify as the only experience needed. It's obvious this was caused by a myriad of factors. My Father was an Air Firce Pilot and 30 year Airline Pilot and Captain who flew he 767 in europe for 7 years. Some of his co Piliots had only 1000 hours in a plane and were flying international! However,because of the excellent training they received he viewed them as very competent during even some stressful situations.

Until the pay structure changes, it is what it is. Once a Pilot is hired, however, multiple failed checkrides is certainly a major red flag. The general avaition fails can happen to anybody but once you are in a structured training platform in 121,I know certainly i would consider changing professions after a certain number of failures.

 

[BoilerUP]

I think this is all Bush's fault. Because 90% of FI think it is not the pilots fault.

Generation Y at work (no reverse pun intended).

Everybody here (regardless of their age or the hours in their logbook) knows its the two people in the pointy end's responsibility to fly the f'in airplane and ensure safety of flight...and this crew failed doing just that.

That does not mean, however, that we as an industry and the public as a whole shouldn't examine the underlying problems with the regional airline work culture that disciplines pilots who follow the FARs and call sick when aeromedically deficient, or why highly experienced regional airline pilots leave chasing higher salaries at major airlines.

Cause: pilot error. Contributing factors: a mile long.

 

[Jet41]

The real blame...the crew failed at basic airmanship.

 

[MJ42]

The real blame...the crew failed at basic airmanship.

Correct, and as stated in many posts, pilot error happens to the experienced and inexperienced aviator.

There is a book, "Redefining Airmanship" by Tony Kern, that should be REQUIRED reading for ALL airline pilots. To quote from the book's cover: "know yourself, know your team, know your aircraft, know your environment, know your risk". In most crashes, I'd think one(or more) of these statements are not followed.

Boiler Up, your post #12 concerns me. As stated in post #32, there were no signs of a tail stall. Hopefully, your post was not implying that it may have been a tail stall, albeit the crew may have reacted as if it was.

"Know yourself", were they fit to fly? "Know your team", was proper TEM(threat and error management...the NEW version of CRM) used? "Know your aircraft", did they know Q400 systems adequately(stall system, recovery procedures...)? "Know your environment", did they have enough winter flying experience to recognize signs of a tail stall? "Know your risk", again, TEM. Did they recognize the threats, correct the errors and manage the situation?

Again, this model can be applied to most crashes. My intent is not to criticize or blame the Colgan pilots, however, it is intended to show how we are all vulnerable to these threats. Learning from accidents is crucial to the safety of our industry.

 

[BoilerUP]

Boiler Up, your post #12 concerns me. As stated in post #32, there were no signs of a tail stall. Hopefully, your post was not implying that it may have been a tail stall, albeit the crew may have reacted as if it was.

Why would you be concerned by a statement of fact?

Given the crew's actions, its not unreasonable to deduce that the crew was distracted and as such might have mistakenly believed they were in a tail stall situation once the shaker went off (even though shakers don't account for tail stalls) and they responded accordingly to the wrong diagnosis.

Obviously they were not in a tail stall and their reactions didn't save the aircraft...

 

[MJ42]

Why would you be concerned by a statement of fact?

Given the crew's actions, its not unreasonable to deduce that the crew was distracted and as such might have mistakenly believed they were in a tail stall situation once the shaker went off (even though shakers don't account for tail stalls) and they responded accordingly to the wrong diagnosis.

Obviously they were not in a tail stall and their reactions didn't save the aircraft...

I may have misread your post, but it sounded as if you were implying they were in a tail stall...sorry for reading too much into your statement.

 

[ackattacker]

Proper recovery from a tail stall calls for reducing power. They (he) added power. So if he was trying to recover from a tail stall he was fraking that up too. Just sayin.

IMHO he was reacting instinctively, without thought and his instinct was about what you'd expect from a pre-solo student pilot. Yoke back in his lap, cross controlled. Unforgivable.

There's a reason they don't teach this stuff at the 121 level. You're supposed to know it already, to have spend years teaching it to student pilots. It would be akin spending time teaching you how to plot a course using a VFR chart and an E-6B and doing ground-reference maneuvers.

 

[BoilerUP]

I may have misread your post, but it sounded as if you were implying they were in a tail stall...sorry for reading too much into your statement.

No worries!

At first, I think many people thought this was a tailplane stall...if only because that being the case would make us feel better about the crash, as opposed to the cause being a gross lack of airmanship...

 

[30West]

The real blame...the crew failed at basic airmanship.

Thank you Captain Obvious. The rest of us moved on to the "why" a long time ago. Try and keep up.