Where the Real Blame Lies...

[SEVEN]

STOP Gulfstream NOW!!!

Where did the Captain train in FL? Was he at Gulfstream?

You got it. He was a student at that wreckless, joke of a flight school, Gulfstream. Just like the 2 Pinnacle pilots who crashed. Both from Gulfstream. Does anyone see a trend hear?
Shut that freaking place down NOW!!!

 

[lionflyer]

You got it. He was a student at that wreckless, joke of a flight school, Gulfstream. Just like the 2 Pinnacle pilots who crashed. Both from Gulfstream. Does anyone see a trend hear?
Shut that freaking place down NOW!!!

I thought the Pinnicle CA was a Riddler (Jessie Rhodes I think). I could be wrong. I hear ya though. I wish all the pilot mills would go away.

 

[N813CA]

What about all the guys that became pilots because uncle sam made them in Vietnam? They weren't given this great opportunity to become airline pilots?

 

[rtmcfi]

I have no doubt that every airline checks for speed management on approach. I have no doubt these pilots were trained in that and checked on it.

Not every airline pays for a FOQUA program that far more effectivly monitors real world performance than the once every now and then line check. To implement an effective FOQUA program costs money, and the FAA does not require it. Any airline that goes beyond FAA minimums places itself at risk of losing the next RFP.

I believe the airlines will hire the best pilots available to them at the time. To do otherwise is not in their best interests.[/

QUOTE]

What you should have written was : I believe the airlines will hire the best available pilots to them at the price point they are willing to pay. To do otherwise is not in their best interest come RFP time

 

[Fred Rogers]

Sorry to be contrary, but,......I don't think they will. Neither will (___insert your least favorite sub-standard regional airline here___).

You are not contrary, but when you say "sub-standard regional," you are repeating yourself.

 

[joepilot29]

I am going to play devils advocate. I was hired at Comair not long after our 5191 crash. I don't recall the actual times of both pilots but both of them had "been there done that" and yet still departed the wrong runway. All it takes is one minor mistake and the whole situation to explode. Basic principles of CRM. It's another one of those just a bad day to be a pilot day. I read the transcripts. I just heard the colgan atc audio. Wow pretty eerie.

I feel bad for the colgan family (Chuck excluded but that's another story). They are going to get into more lawsuits than they will know what to do with. The day of 5191 some lawfirm out of Atlanta was already advertising for lawsuits of our crash. Lawyers are chomping at the bit for this one.

I was the last class hired at 1200/200 and I had my a@@ handed to me during training. Quite a learning curve. I could not even imagine getting hired at 250 hrs.

I hope the NTSB takes a look at what happened before they reported. From what I have read the captain slept in the crewroom and the FO non reved on a redeye the night before. They need to get these rest req's under control. This reduced rest bs has got to stop.

The last and only time I ever slept in OH's crewroom I think I got about 2hrs sleep. To add insult to injury I had to perform my 1st missed at DCA that day. That was a long day. We get less rest than a truck driver is required but we assume alot more risk. Alot more and we make headlines when we make a mistake. I made the about $17 an hour based on a 40hr week the last few months being on reserve to fly a $50 million dollar jet. What the F%%k.

Something has got to give. A pilot once told me that the FAR's are written in blood. Can't wait to see what the FAA does about this. Probably nothing as usual. I'm sure you dash guys will see some new ad or procedure. The CRJ has had flap problems for years. Instead of fixing the problem mechanically. We get a new flap procedure or take an extra 5000 lbs of gas every leg.

I wish the FAA would get their crap straight. I wish the airlines even the regionals would pay what they should pay. Passengers are so spoiled now. The expect 1st class service for paying for a $20 ticket. Is that the price of defying gravity for a few hours and then landing after flying an approach down to minimums and landing safetly.

I hope I speak for many. Screw this industry. Think I might actually use the old business degree soon. What a sham.

 

[Poahi]

What standards would you impose that would have prevented this accident?

Good point. And consider this:

Regional airlines account for approximately 50 percent of all scheduled airline flights in America.

The NTSB website lists two regional airline accidents over the last 10 years which were flown under 121 and had fatailties associated with pilot error -
COMAIR 5191
Colgan 3407 (let's assume this was for simplicity)

The combined loss of life is approximately 100.

That same database lists three 'major airline' accidents under the same conditions -
American 1420 - Little Rock
American 587 - Bell Harbor NY
Soutwest 1248 - Chicago

The combined loss of life is 277

Sully probably didn't include that in his testimony.

 

[dispatchguy]

I hope the NTSB takes a look at what happened before they reported. From what I have read the captain slept in the crewroom and the FO non reved on a redeye the night before. They need to get these rest req's under control. This reduced rest bs has got to stop.

Do you want Uncle Fed to start regulating a commute - or require you to live in domicile?

A commute is a personal choice, however, as a professional (I commute too), it is my responsibility to insure that when I do report, that I am mentally as well as physically ready for anything when I get there. That means that, for me, I commute in in enough time to be able to take at least a good 3-4 hour power nap (if I am working an afternoon/midnite desk), or commute in the day prior if I am on a morning desk.

You want to see a real blood bath - have Uncle Fed require all pilots (and dispatchers too, there are a few of us who commute) to live in domicile.

In no way does any of the above mean that I think the crew of 3407 was unprofessional - I havent heard the tapes, read the CVR transcript, nor have I read much about the accident.

 

[AirCobra]

Do you want Uncle Fed to start regulating a commute - or require you to live in domicile?

A commute is a personal choice, however, as a professional (I commute too), it is my responsibility to insure that when I do report, that I am mentally as well as physically ready for anything when I get there. That means that, for me, I commute in in enough time to be able to take at least a good 3-4 hour power nap (if I am working an afternoon/midnite desk), or commute in the day prior if I am on a morning desk.

You want to see a real blood bath - have Uncle Fed require all pilots (and dispatchers too, there are a few of us who commute) to live in domicile.

In no way does any of the above mean that I think the crew of 3407 was unprofessional - I havent heard the tapes, read the CVR transcript, nor have I read much about the accident.

The report said the FO was coming back from vacation. I don't think "I'm too tired to fly becuase my vacation really wore me out" is going to work as an excuse. You are right on about commuting. Regional pay is lousy sure but people commute by choice and should allow adequate rest time.

 

[Speedtape]

Clouds are scary!

 

[SEVEN]

For all of you screaming for Regulation change; I have no problem with the FAA tweeking some of the rest, reduced rest, and duty time requirements. That's all fine and dandy. But guess what? Inexperienced pilots will still crash and kill lots of people even with 11 hours of rest. Fatigue is definately real. I and many others have experienced it many times. It can be a factor in crashes. But, pilots have a responsibility, even when tired to complete a flight safely. If a pilot feels that tired/fatigued a sick call is in order. I know that Colgan frowns upon calling in sick. But come on. It's not worth the risk of crashing. This will hopefully be a learning experience for the industry.
Inexperience and crew pairing was huge in this crash. This needs to change and change FAST!

 

[ackattacker]

Which, interestingly enough, is the exact procedure one would use in the event of a tailplane stall.

Agreed. And apparently Colgan was teaching tail-plane stall recovery in ground school. So they have been spring loaded to expect it, especially with icing and just after flap selection.

Of course a tail plane stall does NOT set off the stall warning system. They should have known that. Shoulda coulda woulda.

Clearly that had a lack of situational awareness... no idea the airspeed was so low. So when you say "flaps 15" and all hell breaks loose it's natural to undo what you just did. Not an excuse just an explanation. A lack of airmanship for sure, starting with distraction and not keeping track of the big 3 - attitude, airspeed, position.

I wonder how much time they had with airspeed tape vs. round dial.

 

[Browntothebone]

FAA needs to regulate a mandatory minimum wage, say $40,000 for starting F/O and $100,000 for Captain upgrade. That will bring in the quality applicants.

 

[777forever]

Good point. And consider this:

Regional airlines account for approximately 50 percent of all scheduled airline flights in America.

The NTSB website lists two regional airline accidents over the last 10 years which were flown under 121 and had fatailties associated with pilot error -
COMAIR 5191
Colgan 3407 (let's assume this was for simplicity)

The combined loss of life is approximately 100.

That same database lists three 'major airline' accidents under the same conditions -
American 1420 - Little Rock
American 587 - Bell Harbor NY
Soutwest 1248 - Chicago

The combined loss of life is 277

Sully probably didn't include that in his testimony.

Right on the money bro! Everyone is quick to jump on the lack of experience bandwagon when history has shown these type of crashes occur at all experience levels.

The Turkish Airlines 737 stalled and crashed on final with not 2 but 3 highly experienced crew members on board. And I know the Capt for sure had military training.

A highly experienced CAL 737 Capt got lucky he didn't kill 100+ people when he made the decision to correct for the FO being off centerline with the tiller during the T/O roll. Lawsuits on the way though!

Highly experienced A340 crew made a simple FMS entry error and got lucky they didn't kill 200+ people on T/O in Australia. All they got was a pretty bad tailstrike and a pink slip.

Highly experienced NWA A320 crew just recently tailstriked on landing in Denver so bad the plane is written off. Somehow I think it's gunna end up being pilot error.

I believe the system we have is almost as good as it gets. At the end of the day we have to realize that we are all human and it is virtually impossible to prevent accidents from ever happening. The best we can do is reduce the probability, which I believe the system is doing a excellent job.

 

[BoilerUP]

Inexperienced pilots will still crash and kill lots of people even with 11 hours of rest. Fatigue is definately real. I and many others have experienced it many times. It can be a factor in crashes. But, pilots have a responsibility, even when tired to complete a flight safely. If a pilot feels that tired/fatigued a sick call is in order. I know that Colgan frowns upon calling in sick. But come on. It's not worth the risk of crashing. This will hopefully be a learning experience for the industry.
Inexperience and crew pairing was huge in this crash. This needs to change and change FAST!

While I know what you're saying, history has shown us even highly experienced airline pilots have killed lots of people too...doing things like running out of gas, flying perfectly good airplanes into the ground, not using flaps for takeoff, etc.

Fatigue, experience, working atmosphere - all are contributing factors to fatal accidents...but ultimately the two people sitting in the pointy end are responsible for safety of flight, and complacency (in pilots with 1000 hours or 20,000 hours) kills.

Fate is the hunter...

 

[ackattacker]

Right on the money bro! Everyone is quick to jump on the lack of experience bandwagon when history has shown these type of crashes occur at all experience levels.

The Turkish Airlines 737 stalled and crashed on final with not 2 but 3 highly experienced crew members on board. And I know the Capt for sure had military training.

A highly experienced CAL 737 Capt got lucky he didn't kill 100+ people when he made the decision to correct for the FO being off centerline with the tiller during the T/O roll. Lawsuits on the way though!

Highly experienced A340 crew made a simple FMS entry error and got lucky they didn't kill 200+ people on T/O in Australia. All they got was a pretty bad tailstrike and a pink slip.

Highly experienced NWA A320 crew just recently tailstriked on landing in Denver so bad the plane is written off. Somehow I think it's gunna end up being pilot error.

I believe the system we have is almost as good as it gets. At the end of the day we have to realize that we are all human and it is virtually impossible to prevent accidents from ever happening. The best we can do is reduce the probability, which I believe the system is doing a excellent job.

All valid points however I don't believe in saying "well, that's as good as it gets (or good enough), no sense trying to improve the system".

Clearly airline safety can be improved further. And, analyzing the root causes of accidents and correcting for them is a fundamental part of that.

 

[777forever]

All valid points however I don't believe in saying "well, that's as good as it gets (or good enough), no sense trying to improve the system".

Clearly airline safety can be improved further. And, analyzing the root causes of accidents and correcting for them is a fundamental part of that.

Completely agree. I believe we have a very strong foundation for what a safe system should be. It can and will use a little improvements here and there. Like mandatory stickpusher training.

 

[Papa Woody]

American 587 was a bomb.

 

[Flyer1015]

FAA needs to regulate a mandatory minimum wage, say $40,000 for starting F/O and $100,000 for Captain upgrade. That will bring in the quality applicants.

How stupid are you? Since when will the FAA ever cave in to what the NTSB says, when it involves money $$$????????? Sorry, but the ATA and RAA will ensure, through powerful $ lobbying, that the FAA maintain status quo on how things are right now. Expect changes in stall profiles (to probably include all the way to pusher). But do NOT expect changes in long duty days, reduced rest, and fatiguing schedules.

 

[Flyer1015]

American 587 was a bomb.

No, that was pretty much all Molin and rudder smashing to full deflection, left and right, 5 or 6 times before finally snapping.