When will it ease up or do we need the government to step in again? ie. regulation.

[GogglesPisano]

More laws?

How about less laws (safety regulations need to stay, obviously)?

How about the government assumes all the costs of security?

How about we let the free market work and sort out the winners and losers?

 

[minitour]

FNFAL

Wow...that was some amazing insightful posting there, bud...I'm quite impressed.

I did like almost everything you had to say, however it did sound a little socialist with "everyone making the same for the same work."

But then again, I agree with that...why should I make $6.00 an hour when Joe is making $7.00 an hour to do the same job?

Again great points in several posts!

Your Kung-Fu is strong!

Well, nothing really important to add to the thread, so I guess I'll be going back to study now.

-mini

 

[daddysquared]

I'm saying, even out the wages across the board. Captains make captain pay, FO's make FO pay. Pay raises are based on COLA and negotiated settlements for increases.

Interesting. I had often wondered how the pay structure arrived at its current state. So, if an airline were to abandon the current escalating pay scales, and say, pay Captains across the board and First Officers across the board the equivilant of the average of hourly pay from year 1 to 12, just as an example, a Southwest Captain would make about $171/hour and a FO would make $103/hour. (Certainly I am not up to speed with the manner in which Southwest compensates their pilots, a la per trip or whatever). I agree with FN FAL that there should also be some type of "apprentice" pay for a period of time, but I don't think that the pilot population as a whole would be unhappy making 103/hour after apprentice pay and only receiving cost of living increases, and making 171/hour as a captain with said increases from beginning to end.

 

[No Delay]

Hey FNFAL, when I read your first post I was thinking "this guy is on crack." But after you broke it down, I have to say I am quiet impressed. You made some very good points.

However, it does model socialism and I just can't think of any country (or industry) that has been successful in operating that way.

It is all about supply and demand. It causes some vicious cycles - but it is the only thing that keeps prices fair (or at least somewhat under control). The success of a company is determined in part by fair pricing and the quality of service.

A question for you: What would be the motivation for a person to start his own business? If my profits are dictated through government regulation (cost + 10%) you would kill the american dream of owning your own business and one day being rich.

Now, I have to agree with you that pilot pay is way out of wack. 1st year F/O's are way under paid and senior captains are way over paid. It does need to be reformed, and I think that is what we are beginning to see. I know I am not real knowledgeable in this, but I think these pilot contracts the airlines agreed to did not allow for fluctuations in the company's profitability. Should pilots make good money? Yes. Should pilots make so much that it breaks the company? No. Now, I know there are so many other aspects to a company's profitability and success but we will save that for another arguement.

Maybe a better system would be to first balance the pay scale, the have a base pay + profit sharing or some type of commission. This would force employees to play a more active role in the success of the company. The company does good...employees are paid more. The company starts to struggle...pay goes down. Which would in turn be immediately relief for the company to help it recover. I think this system should be used for managers too. Of course, there would have to be a system in place to make sure companies were using fair and honest accounting practices - here again, that is another arguement.

I know my points are not as organized as FNFAL - it was just some thoughts I had.

 

[minitour]

A question for you: What would be the motivation for a person to start his own business? If my profits are dictated through government regulation (cost + 10%) you would kill the american dream of owning your own business and one day being rich.

Don't quote me here, cuz I could be wrong, but I think he means as a minimum they should charge cost plus 10%...that way no one charges less than cost and loses money...

just my thoughts

-mini

 

[Big Duke Six]

My 2 cents:

Cost plus 10%? Not a bad idea really. Easy to monitor too, if you just take known CASM numbers from each airline and do the math.

But as a minimum, I think that a great law would be that WHILE YOU"RE IN FREAKING BANKRUPTCY, YOU CAN'T CHARGE LESS FOR A TICKET THAN WHAT IT COSTS YOU TO PRODUCE THAT SEAT FOR THAT TRIP.

I'll say it again: UAL charging $59 round trip from DEN to RNO this summer should have been illegal, especially when they didn't have to pay their bills in bankruptcy. UAL employees laugh when they see it, knowing full well that UA's only motive there was to stick it to whoever the competition was, again while also knowing that they didn't have to worry about how they would have to pay for it.

Our "system" that allows carriers to pull this BS while in bankruptcy is broken. It is yet another reason our whole industry is dying.

 

[English]

Why not let the free market determine ticket prices, but have the government REGULATE fuel surcharges, across the board, at every passenger-carrying airline?

For example, when a barrel of oil costs $25, the fuel surcharge would be zero (X). For each $1 increase in price of oil per barrel, the fuel surcharge would increase $1. So, when oil is at $45 per barrel, the surcharge would be $20 per ticket one way (X + 20).

The numbers could be variable - the real thing that seems necessary is government intervention during fuel price crises. If airline managment can't make money when fuel prices go up, they shouldn't be taking money from labor (and pensions) in exchange. The result is an eventual reliance on the government to bail them out anyway, might as well try some preventative medicine.

 

[minitour]

...But as a minimum, I think that a great law would be that WHILE YOU"RE IN FREAKING BANKRUPTCY, YOU CAN'T CHARGE LESS FOR A TICKET THAN WHAT IT COSTS YOU TO PRODUCE THAT SEAT FOR THAT TRIP....

That would be a horrible law! It would make sense....I mean....if laws made sense, we wouldn't need lawyers...think of the unemployment

-mini