When to descend?

[TIS]

Such practical application (needles, bearing pointers, etc.) has no place with a DME ARC, and it still doesn't give us a reference.


.

Okay then, hows about you do a little legwork too! I found this in about three minutes. Here's your course width info for an arc when used as an intermediate approach segment.

From FAA Order 8260.3b, Change 19

243. INTERMEDIATE APPROACH SEGMENT BASED ON AN ARC. Arcs with a radius of less than 7 miles or more than 30 miles from the navigation facility shall NOT be used. DME arc courses shall be predicated on DME collocated with a facility providing omnidirectional course information.

a. Alignment. The same arc shall be used for the intermediate and the final approach segments. No turns shall be required over the FAF.
b. Area. (1) Length. The intermediate segment shall NOT be less than 5 miles nor more than 15 miles in length, measured along the arc. The OPTIMUM length is 10 miles. A distance greater than 10 miles should not be used unless an operational requirement justifies the greater distance. (2) Width. The total width of an arc intermediate segment is 6 miles on each side of the arc. For obstacle clearance purposes, this width is divided into a primary and a secondary area. The primary area extends 4 miles laterally on each side of the arc segment. The secondary areas extend 2 miles laterally on each side of the primary area (see figure 10).

Here’s the link if you want to pour over more of it than this.

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives page.htm


And from the AIM:
The term “established” means, “To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.” (AIM – Pilot/Controller Glossary under “E”). Nothing more and nothing less.

TIS

 

[TIS]

And the NoPT just simply says that you will not be making a procedure turn. Which, really doesn't need to be there in the first place right? I mean, looking at the layout it clearly shows that no PT is even needed to get to the LOC.

The NoPT notation does not simply mean that you WON'T be doing the PT. It means that you MAY NOT perform a procedure turn without specific ATC approval to do so.

TIS

 

[stagger]

When not to fly a procedure turn

Without trying to date myself I seem to remember the acronym SNORT from Air Force Pilot Training to help remember when a proc turn is not authorized.


S... straight in approach

NO.. when the plate says NO PROC TURN


R ...Radar vectors


T... Timed aproaches



Anyone else remember this or my mind failing me again from watching too much reality television

 

[nosehair]

however once you are flying the 018 heading, you have to stay on the left side of that barb? Or can you make a right turn if you'd like?

Yes, you can make a right turn if you want. Normaly the 180 turn is done away from the field to help prevent turning inbound to close to get down after becoming...dare I say it,..."established"...but there are times...say, if you get busy and go too far out, you should make the 180 from the barb back towards the field (opposite the normal direction) to help prevent exceeding the ten mile limit.

 

[nosehair]

If you're on a practical test of any kind this is NOT true. the PTS specifies that you must use the appropriate entry from the AIM.

Not any more, TIS. Used to be, but that has been gone for a few years now.

 

[nosehair]

And from the AIM:
The term “established” means, “To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.” (AIM – Pilot/Controller Glossary under “E”). Nothing more and nothing less.

There it is, Tony C. That is as good as it gets with the term "established".
Thank God. All this beer hall arguing over "needle off the peg", or "2 dots", or "half-scale needle deflection", or whatever, is for training and testing, not for actual real-life operations. The term as defined in the AIM is sufficient, but it requires you to know the parameters of the route, route segment, etc.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Without trying to date myself I seem to remember the acronym SNORT from Air Force Pilot Training to help remember when a proc turn is not authorized.


S... straight in approach

NO.. when the plate says NO PROC TURN


R ...Radar vectors


T... Timed approaches



Anyone else remember this or my mind failing me again from watching too much reality television

I don't recognize the mnemonic, but the "S" is incorrect. Straight in doesn't give you the ability to forego the PT unless one of those other three conditions is there.

 

[TIS]

Not any more, TIS. Used to be, but that has been gone for a few years now.

Checked it. I stand corrected.

I still think you'll raise an eyebrow since you have to ensure that you will remain within the protected airspace entering the hold. Practically speaking I think an examiner is going to default ot AIM procedures.

 

[nosehair]

Practically speaking I think an examiner is going to default ot AIM procedures.

Yeah, well, I don't know what you mean by "default to..." other than if the applicant doesn't make the recommended AIM entry, and then flies out of the protected airspace, well of course, then the examiner may cite non-standard procedures, as in your stated position that the AIM, practically speaking, is regulatory. As in when your non-AIM-standard procedures cause a problem, then the AIM is looked at as supporting evidence as to the careless and reckless manner of operation, etc., but the simple act of non-standard procedures in and of itself does not constitute a violation or cause to be reprimanded.

My reason for preaching this message is not to relegate the AIM recommended procedures to "nice-to-know-but-who-cares" information. I do teach and follow the AIM as a standard. The problem is that not all possible conditions can be covered with a standard procedure, and I have come across too many pilots in my life who do not or cannot think. They are totally dependent on a standard procedure to follow. If there is not a lined out procedure, the pilot is stumped. And that's not the way it is in this flying life. Pilots make operational decisions all the time based on the situation at hand, which is not always in the exact model upon which the AIM recommended procedure is based.

There is no such thing as "always" or "never", and that is especially true in this business. Sometimes...sometimes, I said, not usually, but sometimes, the standard recommended procedure can be the more dangerous route. It is our job to be constantly situationally aware and making sound judgements based on actual real-time situations that enhance safety rather than adhereing to a proposed written "standard procedure" which doesn't take the unusual situation into account.

As long as you don't create a "situation" with your non-standard procedure, you are ok to do as you wish...within reason, of course. The operative word is...you don't create an unsafe condition by your non-standard actions.

 

[TonyC]

Without trying to date myself I seem to remember the acronym SNORT from Air Force Pilot Training to help remember when a proc turn is not authorized.


S... straight in approach

NO.. when the plate says NO PROC TURN


R ...Radar vectors


T... Timed aproaches



Anyone else remember this or my mind failing me again from watching too much reality television

I remember SHoRTN

S - Straight-in
Ho - Holing-in-lieu-of
R - Radar Vectors to final
T - Timed approach
N - NoPT routing



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